Lockdown in England from Thursday 5 November until Wednesday 2 December

[43066]

To take the language of the post I challenged at face value, you would think the poster was in a particularly strict prison regime, with no influence whatsoever over his life or what he does. That was the cant and hyperbole I called out.

Which bits of what he said were factually incorrect? As you admitted yourself above it IS illegal to do those things at the moment! If that sounds like a strict prison regime, perhaps that’s an indication of how far this country has fallen over the last few months.

I didn’t say I don’t miss those activities, or that they are unimportant, but that they don’t alone form all that makes life worthwhile.

I’ll have to ask you what massive plane of experience seems to be missing from my life, then? My life basically consists of getting reasonable enjoyment from my job: socialising with friends and family; forming new contacts and relationships; eating out; sharing adventures and experiences; pursuing my hobbies (which include travelling).

What else is there? Sitting at home on my own doesn’t exactly do it for me, I’m afraid.

Maybe this forum has a higher percentage of people who like their own company

I suspect you’re 100% correct here.

 

[35B]

Which bits of what he said were factually incorrect? As you admitted yourself above it IS illegal to do those things at the moment! If that sounds like a strict prison regime, perhaps that’s an indication of how far this country has fallen over the last few months.


I’ll have to ask you what massive plane of experience seems to be missing from my life, then? My life basically consists of getting reasonable enjoyment from my job: socialising with friends and family; forming new contacts and relationships; eating out; sharing adventures and experiences; pursuing my hobbies (which include travelling).

What else is there? Sitting at home on my own doesn’t exactly do it for me, I’m afraid.

Perhaps you’d like to consider the Chinese approach to lockdown, and your career prospects (clue, minimal) if you posted in this vein there.

Other than one trip to get my laptop fixed, I’ve not been in the office since March. I’ve also not been able to do a lot of the things I enjoy, and have had to contend with the impact on my kids not being able to do their activities. I have colleagues who are confined to living with their parents, or cooped up in tiny flats, and I am acutely aware how easy I have it in comparison.

That goes double when I compare with colleagues in India, who work UK shifts from small flats, home educating children, with both partners working and elderly relatives living with them. And then facing a healthcare system that makes me glad for what the NHS offers

I don’t like lockdown, and I’ll be glad, very glad, when it’s over. But that doesn’t mean that hyperbolic nonsense should just be let pass, unchallenged and uncommented upon.

 

[Energy]

My view is:
-Where masks when possible. Definitely on public transport. I understand that wearing one for 14 hours or so a day is uncomfortable so you should be able to take it of when there are dividers between you and other people or when people are far away from you (I would say 2 metres). We know that the virus is airborn so wearing a mask does help.
-Socially distance whenever possible. I would go for a metre personally, 2 metres without a mask. Social distancing does help but we can't have 2 metres everywhere just because of limited amount of space.
-Use your common sense. Having 500 people in close proximity is obviously a bad idea and will spread covid, but we shouldn't say ban playing tennis, which will not spread covid much.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

The tier system I would imagine?

Many said that the tier system needed more time so we could see where we were at before going full lockdown. They weren't interested of course, they just presented us with some phoney projections instead and locked down on that basis.

Scotland has been running something close to the Tier system in the central belt for several weeks now and case rates have been falling for over a week and the death rate is also now falling with the expected lag. Im at a loss as to why Boris have nailed his colours to the tier systems suddenly switched horses before any sign of whether it was working or not so what was his motive? I don't buy the NHS overloaded entirely but i do buy the risk that as Xmas approached if the Tier system wasn't working he ran the risk of cancelling a normal Xmas and people would remember that. So for sake of a couple of days we have invoked this lockdown for 28 days and that's just the start with significant economic damage likely wreak untold havoc on millions of peoples lives and wellbeing.

This is war and there will always be collateral damage if you want to win it.

 

[43066]

@35B you’re another poster who is actively avoiding addressing the points I’ve made above. Please can you do so?

Perhaps you’d like to consider the Chinese approach to lockdown, and your career prospects (clue, minimal) if you posted in this vein there.

I don’t live in China. I don’t want this country to be anything like China - that’s why I’m so against these restrictions. I’d rather have hundreds of thousands of deaths than be expected to live like this.

Other than one trip to get my laptop fixed, I’ve not been in the office since March. I’ve also not been able to do a lot of the things I enjoy, and have had to contend with the impact on my kids not being able to do their activities. I have colleagues who are confined to living with their parents, or cooped up in tiny flats, and I am acutely aware how easy I have it in comparison.

Interesting. You strongly implied you were a doctor upthread. The doctors I know work in hospitals and surgeries, not offices (but then again they’re actual real life doctors).

That goes double when I compare with colleagues in India, who work UK shifts from small flats, home educating children, with both partners working and elderly relatives living with them. And then facing a healthcare system that makes me glad for what the NHS offers

Again - I don’t live in India. I’m also not particularly glad of what the NHS offers because I don’t think it does what we need it to.

I don’t like lockdown, and I’ll be glad, very glad, when it’s over. But that doesn’t mean that hyperbolic nonsense should just be let pass, unchallenged and uncommented upon.

Once again, you haven’t actually addressed my points. The comments made by the poster you quoted weren’t hyperbolic, they were factually correct.

 

[Dan15812]

First of all, I’m very sorry to hear that your friend suffered so badly from this awful disease. I can completely understand why this has influenced your views on the subject.

Whilst I completely understand how difficult that must be, please understand that your friend was extremely unlucky to have suffered like this, and the number of people who do end up seriously ill from this virus is extremely small compared to the number who contract it. That’s why I, and many others, are supporting a more voluntary and proportionate response to this crisis. Those who are vulnerable or feel the need to shield should be fully able and compensated to do so, however none of these “mandated” laws which are based off of evidenceless assumptions are doing society any good.

Thank you @Huntergreed.

 

[Cowley]

Ok it’s probably time to take a break from this thread if it’s starting to wind you up.
It’s getting a bit heated on here but I don’t want to start censoring people so please keep it informative and respectful. Thanks all.

 

[greyman42]

The risk of transmission outdoors is marginal compared to that of a poorly ventilated, crowded indoor venue (e.g. a house party).

Of which there will be many this weekend because the pubs are shut.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2020 ==

-Where masks when possible. Definitely on public transport. I understand that wearing one for 14 hours or so a day is uncomfortable so you should be able to take it of when there are dividers between you and other people or when people are far away from you (I would say 2 metres).

This statement contradicts itself.

 

[Energy]

This statement contradicts itself.

Wear masks (sorry for saying the where in previous message) or have a divider between you and other people.

 

[Jamiescott1]

Britons could be told to 'self-quarantine' for two weeks in January

The advice to 'self-quarantine' could be issued if festive gatherings of the wider family are allowed, a paper from the Scientific Advisory Group on Emergencies (Sage) warns.

www.dailymail.co.uk

That’ll go down well. Isolate after Christmas!!

I'm sure I read yesterday that SAGE were advising parents to give their children netfkix subscriptions and let them play on mobile phones so that they stay indoors during lockdown. (I can't find the link for this now, so please put up of someone finds it).
Scientists should not be encouraging mobile phone use or TV watching for children.

 

[Huntergreed]

I'm sure I read yesterday that SAGE were advising parents to give their children netfkix subscriptions and let them play on mobile phones so that they stay indoors during lockdown. (I can't find the link for this now, so please put up of someone finds it).
Scientists should not be encouraging mobile phone use or TV watching for children.

Clearly this doesn’t matter anymore, as it’s not about the big bad virus. Another example of ludicrous advice that could do a lot of damage in the long run.

 

[Richard Scott]

This whole thing is now getting out of control, so just let kids play on phones or watch telly, spend two weeks locked up for spending time with relatives and just when I think they Government or Sage cannot get any more ridiculous then they go and trump themselves again (pun intended).
I suppose Johnson realises he's going to go down as most useless PM for years so may as well go the whole way.

 

[221129]

We know that the virus is airborn so wearing a mask does help.

Please back up with actual evidence.

 

[DB]

Please back up with actual evidence.

Quite. The first bit is true (it is airborne), but the assertion that therefore masks help does not automatically follow from this, and so far there is no convincing evidence that they do.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

It is illegal for me to spend time with humans.
It is illegal for me to engage in numerous activities that I enjoy, as the venues have been closed down, despite several of them being outdoor activities
It is illegal for me to go on a holiday, and any attempt is met with significant uncertaintly and arbritrary restrictions imposed at short notice.
It is illegal for me to protest against the things that have been made illegal on scant evidence.
It is illegal or impossible for me to form a relationship, however, those who formed a relationship before March are allowed to enjoy theirs.

It is only legal for me to work, and consume.

Work, eat, sleep.
Work, eat, sleep.
Work, eat, sleep.
Work, eat, sleep.
Work, eat, sleep.
Shop online, eat, sleep.
Pray, eat, sleep.

Then ultimately die.

Seems like a massive sacrifice to me, for minimal measurable benefit for the vast majority of the population.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2020 ==

Having read your posts you contradict yourself, firstly saying you're scared to leave the house then you're not bothered, you ducked very reasonable questions from another poster.... more than once, I also live in the southwest, my partner works in care homes and she worked through the first lockdowns in care homes with covid, she's seen what it can do to people who are vulnerable, me and her both fall certainly into more vulnerable than most, she having asthma and both of us carrying a bit more weight than we'd like, but as others have said, you make your own risk assessment and act on that and we're at the point where the "cure" is much worse than the risk, only today i read that a new strain has been discovered that may be resistant to any vaccine, so what do we do? Hide away forever until the magic bullet appears? I could get killed crossing the road so I mitigate by looking both ways, not by never crossing a road. I could have a car crash, so I mitigate by driving sensibly, wearing a seat belt and driving a car that is relatively crash worthy, I dont mitigate by never getting in a car! Its proved by many sources that basic hygiene is the simple most effective way to not catch this virus so clean your hands!

The extra weight doesn't matter unless a person is significantly overweight. There has been some research, it was reported in a BBC Radio programme a few weeks back (R4 or World Service). Having a BMI of 30 only gave a small increase in risk (for COVID).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2020 ==

I suspect you’re 100% correct here.

I suspect many don't even enjoy their own company!

 

[Horizon22]

I’d rather have hundreds of thousands of deaths than be expected to live like this.

I get that its hard, but really? And the millions of families this would affect. Wow.

I think a certain level of fatalities that remains stable over time is probably acceptable as we live with the virus, but this comes off as incredibly self-centred for a one month (albeit major) inconvenience and hardship.

 

[6862]

but this comes off as incredibly self-centred for a one month at least 7 months and probably longer (albeit major) inconvenience and hardship.

Corrected this for you.

 

[35B]

@35B you’re another poster who is actively avoiding addressing the points I’ve made above. Please can you do so?

I don’t live in China. I don’t want this country to be anything like China - that’s why I’m so against these restrictions. I’d rather have hundreds of thousands of deaths than be expected to live like this.

Interesting. You strongly implied you were a doctor upthread. The doctors I know work in hospitals and surgeries, not offices (but then again they’re actual real life doctors).

Again - I don’t live in India. I’m also not particularly glad of what the NHS offers because I don’t think it does what we need it to.

Once again, you haven’t actually addressed my points. The comments made by the poster you quoted weren’t hyperbolic, they were factually correct.

That list is factually accurate, but does not support the argument that "we've sacrificed everything that makes life worth living". It is that comment that I consider absurd hyperbole, and my comparisons with China and India were to illustrate just how relatively easy we have it. As for preferring hundreds of thousands of deaths rather than these constraints, I'd ask that you actually think what that means. As it's Remembrance this weekend, I've just checked Wikipedia (yes, I know!) for an idea of wartime casualties. The UK suffered 67,200 civilian deaths in WWII; an equivalent proportion of the population to about 90,000 today. Those were about 1/6 of the combat deaths in that period. What proportion of those deaths due to Covid do you regard as acceptable?

The attempt to twist any argument that lockdown is not the end of the world as we know it into representing unconditional support for lockdown is ridiculous. There are genuine and serious questions to be asked about governments' response to Covid, and the proportionality of their policy responses. Not just in the UK, but worldwide; they relate to the immediate response, the way that response has developed, and also beg serious questions about the background. Those questions are devalued by those who use sophistry and hyperbole to pretend that the situation we're in today is somehow the end of the world; the combination of hyperbole with spoilt child petty non-compliance is repellent. At least Piers Corbyn, dangerous idiot that he is, has the courage and integrity to front up in his protests.

As for my being a doctor, you have me confused with another poster - I make no pretensions to medical training, and never have.

 

[DB]

I get that its hard, but really? And the millions of families this would affect. Wow.

I think a certain level of fatalities that remains stable over time is probably acceptable as we live with the virus, but this comes off as incredibly self-centred for a one month (albeit major) inconvenience and hardship.

But what is the 'one month' (as already pointed out, it's not really) actually going to achieve? Those susceptible will probably still get it, just a few weeks later than they would have done. Unless this would mean the difference between getting hospital treatment or not, nothing has been achieved - and the claims about hospitals being unable to cope are clearly not true.

 

[RPI]

Work, eat, sleep.
Work, eat, sleep.
Work, eat, sleep.
Work, eat, sleep.
Work, eat, sleep.
Shop online, eat, sleep.
Pray, eat, sleep.

Then ultimately die.

Seems like a massive sacrifice to me, for minimal measurable benefit for the vast majority of the population.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2020 ==


The extra weight doesn't matter unless a person is significantly overweight. There has been some research, it was reported in a BBC Radio programme a few weeks back (R4 or World Service). Having a BMI of 30 only gave a small increase in risk (for COVID).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2020 ==


I suspect many don't even enjoy their own company!

Youre preaching to the converted here, my point is me being a porker and maybe more likely to get ill and still I dont agree with this ridiculous lockdown, the "cure" is worse than the virus

 

[HSTEd]

I'd ask that you actually think what that means. As it's Remembrance this weekend, I've just checked Wikipedia (yes, I know!) for an idea of wartime casualties. The UK suffered 67,200 civilian deaths in WWII; an equivalent proportion of the population to about 90,000 today. Those were about 1/6 of the combat deaths in that period. What proportion of those deaths due to Covid do you regard as acceptable?

Despite what many might think, the life of an old person is not as valuable as the life of a young person. Killing someone with ten years left is not the same as killing someone with 50 left.
Also, why are we restricting this solely to civilian casualties?

Since the British Government had conscription thorughout WW2, all people killed had exactly as much choice as to wheret hey were sent, that is to say, none.

The UK suffered 449,700 dead, or about 602,000 dead in today's terms.

Once you adjust for the fact that the war killed mostly young fit healthy people, rather than people in the last years of their live, the number of QALY lost is a tiny fraction of that lost int he war.

 

[Yew]

I get that its hard, but really? And the millions of families this would affect. Wow.

I think a certain level of fatalities that remains stable over time is probably acceptable as we live with the virus, but this comes off as incredibly self-centred for a one month (albeit major) inconvenience and hardship.

One month? Last time I checked we'd lost most of a year on this misguided quest to 'beat' the virus.

 

[RPI]

For fear of going off topic slightly, but as with a lot of other blokes my age, football is a real release, ie attending a game, I find it is always the best way to let off steam and I havent been able to to that most of the year (as an aside, its just typical that as a Villa supporter and former season ticket holder, the one season we start playing well I cant even get to games!)

 

[bramling]

I get that its hard, but really? And the millions of families this would affect. Wow.

I think a certain level of fatalities that remains stable over time is probably acceptable as we live with the virus, but this comes off as incredibly self-centred for a one month (albeit major) inconvenience and hardship.

But it isn’t one month, is it? We’ve now had varying levels of restrictions for 8 months and counting, and with no end in sight.

There comes a point where we have to press on with life, especially as it seems many of the measures being implemented aren’t particularly effective.

There comes a point where we have to collectively accept that we’re trying to drain the ocean. In other words, we’re trying to achieve something which isn’t within our reach.

I commend anyone who is able to look at this from a perspective of realism.

 

[Yew]

For fear of going off topic slightly, but as with a lot of other blokes my age, football is a real release, ie attending a game, I find it is always the best way to let off steam and I havent been able to to that most of the year (as an aside, its just typical that as a Villa supporter and former season ticket holder, the one season we start playing well I cant even get to games!)

I suppose that supporting Villa, you're used to darkness and despair

 

[Baxenden Bank]

But it isn’t one month, is it? We’ve now had varying levels of restrictions for 8 months and counting, and with no end in sight.

There comes a point where we have to press on with life, especially as it seems many of the measures being implemented aren’t particularly effective.

There comes a point where we have to collectively accept that we’re trying to drain the ocean. In other words, we’re trying to achieve something which isn’t within our reach.

I commend anyone who is able to look at this from a perspective of realism.

I worked it out the other day. My elderly mother, in East Lancashire, has had just one month without significant restrictions on her movement - shielding, then the various restrictions affecting the north, then the tiers and now lockdown 2. 26th August to 30 September were the dates in question. Have any of the measures achieved anything? (other than destroying the economy of the north).

 

[bramling]

I worked it out the other day. My elderly mother, in East Lancashire, has had just one month without significant restrictions on her movement - shielding, then the various restrictions affecting the north, then the tiers and now lockdown 2. 26th August to 30 September were the dates in question. Have any of the measures achieved anything? (other than destroying the economy of the north).

I really don’t think the current lockdown is going to achieve anything. Certainly in this neck of the woods there’s little evidence of buy-in.

 

[RPI]

I suppose that supporting Villa, you're used to darkness and despair

Absolutely

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 7 Nov 2020 ==

Having worked today, the trains around Exeter were absolutely dead, for the first time in my railway career i departed from Exmouth with zero passengers!

 

[43066]

I get that its hard, but really? And the millions of families this would affect. Wow.

I think a certain level of fatalities that remains stable over time is probably acceptable as we live with the virus, but this comes off as incredibly self-centred for a one month (albeit major) inconvenience and hardship.

Would I rather suffer more covid deaths than live with totalitarian, authoritarian Chinese style measures in place? Yes, absolutely.

I genuinely believe we are going to end up with the same number of deaths overall, no matter what we do. That’s unfortunate, but nobody asked for this pandemic, and if anyone thinks measures like masks and “rule of six” etc will make one iota of difference, they’re deluding themselves.

So we might as well take reasonable steps to protect the vulnerable, yet not close down our way of life in the meantime. Locking down (again) is going to cost lives too - the ONS predicted 200,000 excess deaths as a result of the last lockdown.

Would you rather lose people in their eighties or hundreds of thousands of people who are much younger?

As it's Remembrance this weekend, I've just checked Wikipedia (yes, I know!) for an idea of wartime casualties. The UK suffered 67,200 civilian deaths in WWII; an equivalent proportion of the population to about 90,000 today. Those were about 1/6 of the combat deaths in that period. What proportion of those deaths due to Covid do you regard as acceptable?

And those people died because they were fighting to preserve a way of life which is nothing like we are currently experiencing.

Spanish flu wiped out more people than WW1. Covid isn’t quite as bad, but no doubt will go on to kill many millions worldwide. I don’t find that “acceptable”, but it’s just the reality.

As for my being a doctor, you have me confused with another poster - I make no pretensions to medical training, and never have.

Noted - apologies.

I really don’t think the current lockdown is going to achieve anything. Certainly in this neck of the woods there’s little evidence of buy-in.

Exactly the same where I am. In fact I’ve not long stepped off the busiest DLR service I’ve been on since pre-Covid days!

This feels very, very different to March. I happen to believe that’s a good thing.

 

[jtuk]

In Asia they ware masks! Hence why the virus is under control. In the UK we are so fussy about all the basic guidelines hence the mess we are in!!

They wear masks because the air quality is terrible. Nothing to do with viruses.