Lockdown in England from Thursday 5 November until Wednesday 2 December

[ChrisC]

Was out and about around London yesterday, as I was in the Midlands on March 23rd. The atmosphere yesterday couldn't have felt more different, and I don't believe that's just a geographical thing. I don't think this lockdown will be taken nearly as seriously as the first by nearly as many people.

A real difference today here in rural Nottinghamshire compared to the first few weeks of lockdown in March.

Back in March, I think a lot of people were genuinely scared and especially the elderly did not go out at the beginning. Even most younger people then were taking it far more seriously back then. Many were avoiding even going into food shops unnecessarily. My village was almost deserted and there was almost no traffic even on the main roads.

What a difference today. It was like being in a National Park on a Bank Holiday Monday. The roads were extremely busy and every available space to park around the village and in lay-bys along surrounding lanes were full of cars with people out walking. There also seemed to be a high number of lorries and vans passing through the village today which didn’t happen back in March.

I am sure that this lockdown will have devastating consequences for some sections of society. Many people will be in financial difficulties and many will suffer severe mental problems. It will also be very difficult in many poorer inner city areas and on some less affluent housing estates. However, in the more affluent villages around here and in other similar areas today just looked like the beginning of a long holiday for many people. Great that these hoards of people are able to enjoy the good weather and get out into the countryside but it did not seem like the beginning of a serious lockdown situation.

 

[packermac]

I can't help thinking that the government knows more about the progress of a COVID-19 vaccine than they are letting on.

The reason I say this is that I have seen several articles stating that GPs and the NHS have been told to prepare for a major vaccination program from December onwards. I realise that nothing is certain, but I wouldn't have thought that the NHS would be told to prepare for a vaccination program in December if there wasn't a realistic prospect of a vaccinr being available by then.

Consequently I think that the likelihood of having a vaccine is going to be one of the factors that the government uses in determining what restrictions may apply in the new year, after the current restrictions have been relaxed for Christmas.

The government also needs to be honest with itself and admit why Track & Trace has been such a failure, and do whatever it takes to fix it. If this involves sacking certain people and giving the responsibility for Track & Trace to local authorities then so be it.

Well would you not expect them not to be preparing in case by some fluke we have a workable vaccine, and why would they say anything when every time they fail to meet a statement they get vilified in the media.
Trump gets castigated saying we will have a vaccine soon, Boris gets castigated for saying about Christmas back in the summer.
Also if the real case is we are all f....d and a vaccine is 6 years away would you expect them to say that either.
Personally I would love it to be before next summer, but my mind says 2 years.

 

[MDB1images]

The head of the NHS has just given a good presentation at the start of today's press conference that answered a lot of points people raise on this threads and what/why things are happening now.
No idea how to post a link(as it's on live TV)but pretty straight talking and easy to understand(no waffle and pointless graph projections).

 

[MikeWM]

A real difference today here in rural Nottinghamshire compared to the first few weeks of lockdown in March.

Back in March, I think a lot of people were genuinely scared and especially the elderly did not go out at the beginning. Even most younger people then were taking it far more seriously back then. Many were avoiding even going into food shops unnecessarily. My village was almost deserted and there was almost no traffic even on the main roads.

Yes, that was a key part of the difference I saw yesterday - the fear element appeared to have gone. Back in March almost every conversation seemed to be about the virus. That's very much not the case now. Shops were deserted the last few days before lockdown in March - they weren't yesterday. The pubs in Ely last night were full - last time they were very empty for the whole week before the lockdown started.

I've not been out yet today, but so far it feels very different from last time.

 

[35B]

Thanks. Yet more lack of logic, and discriminatory against certain traders in the same way as against certain shops.

Yes, because that's the policy. Whether or not you like it, it's entirely logical - the same types of retailer can open however they sell their wares.

 

[DB]

Yes, because that's the policy. Whether or not you like it, it's entirely logical - the same types of retailer can open however they sell their wares.

Markets are mostly in the open air, where any risk will be even lower.

 

[35B]

Markets are mostly in the open air, where any risk will be even lower.

I'm not arguing either way on that - just observing that the logic of the legislation is entirely consistent in terms of the types of business it hits, whether they trade indoors or out. And if I reflect on the spring, there's a certain sense in defining who may open in terms of the type of business they run, not the type of premises - I remember visiting one garden centre after they reopened following huge pressure "because garden centres are open air", yet felt horribly crowded as distancing went for a complete burton. Enforceable law - and I notice a clear intent to enforce this time - relies on clear definition; the regulations are a lot more thoroughly drafted this time round.

 

[43066]

This is a very interesting, as well as serious, issue - how have both Britain and America ended up in the position where the political choice is so utterly rancid.

Trump versus Clinton
Trump versus Biden
Johnson versus Corbyn

Yes. Quite possibly the worse selection of politicians the U.K. and US have faced in many decades. Perhaps things were worse in the 1970s with Nixon and Watergate in the US and Callaghan and the four day week over here (well before my time).

I’m not sure how much further back we’d have to go to find a worse PM. Chamberlain? At least he had the balls to declare war eventually. Then again the PM post only goes back to the 18th century, so it’s entirely possible that there has never been a worse PM than Johnson.

Even watching Mrs May perform in the house recently one realises even she's in a different class to this current lot. Were it not for Brexit and the behaviour of the last parliament I actually don't think she would have been too bad a leader, and I'm warming to the idea that she'd have handled this better - there seems to be some element of forensic mind working away in there. Meanwhile BJ just walked out when she spoke recently, and Hancock sat there looking the picture of a bored schoolboy. It's so utterly depressing.

Yep, she wasn’t likeable, lacked leadership and people skills, but was clearly a decent human being and a capable individual.

Johnson on the other hand I’ve always had a grudging liking towards, and I assumed that his “charisma” would enable him to galvanise people behind him, and overcome his lack of attention to detail when in power. How wrong I was.

I'm not arguing either way on that - just observing that the logic of the legislation is entirely consistent in terms of the types of business it hits, whether they trade indoors or out. And if I reflect on the spring, there's a certain sense in defining who may open in terms of the type of business they run, not the type of premises - I remember visiting one garden centre after they reopened following huge pressure "because garden centres are open air", yet felt horribly crowded as distancing went for a complete burton. Enforceable law - and I notice a clear intent to enforce this time - relies on clear definition; the regulations are a lot more thoroughly drafted this time round.

I had understood that there was little evidence that Covid spreads in hospitality settings, and the main driver of infections rising again was when people returned to work and education resumed?

 

[bramling]

Yep, she wasn’t likeable, lacked leadership and people skills, but was clearly a decent human being and a capable individual.

Johnson on the other hand I’ve always had a grudging liking towards, and I assumed that his “charisma” would enable him to galvanise people behind him, and overcome his lack of attention to detail when in power. How wrong I was.

Personally, I’ve always been a little suspicious of BJ. I remember reading a piece by him in the Spectator quite a few years ago where he slagged off the 165 driver at Ladbroke Grove, I forget the exact wording but it was along the lines of how about we blame the driver who was supposed to follow traffic lights, or something similarly puerile. Then Michael Portillo, one politician for whom I have very high respect, said fairly recently that the prospect of a Johnson PM-ship filled him with utter horror. So my instinct was correct, but unfortunately we weren’t faced with much viable alternative at the time.

Off for a fireworks party in the back garden shortly. Got a couple of A3 cut-outs of Boris and Matt to burn! Neighbours won’t be snitching, they’re doing pretty much the same, just without the cut-outs!

 

[43066]

Off for a fireworks party in the back garden shortly. Got a couple of A3 cut-outs of Boris and Matt to burn! Neighbours won’t be snitching, they’re doing pretty much the same, just without the cut-outs!

Sounds good - enjoy. No bonfire for me sadly.

You’ll no doubt enjoy watching the Boris effigy being consumed by the flames. He’s quite the “Guy”.

 

[35B]

I had understood that there was little evidence that Covid spreads in hospitality settings, and the main driver of infections rising again was when people returned to work and education resumed?

Possibly - but that wasn't my argument. @DavidB argued that the application of the policy was illogical; I replied that it is entirely logical on it's own terms, and that as a piece of legislation, writing it in terms of business types is sensible for enforceability.

That is without comment for or against the particular policy represented by the lockdown.

 

[yorkie]

I've quit my wretched union due, in part, to their ludicrous stance in wanting to close schools during this lockdown (and also partly because they want to force everyone to wear masks at all times, but let's not get onto that in this thread!)

In other news, it was confirmed last night that the terms of this lockdown prevents schools running extra-curricular after school clubs.

 

[bramling]

Sounds good - enjoy. No bonfire for me sadly.

You’ll no doubt enjoy watching the Boris effigy being consumed by the flames. He’s quite the “Guy”.

Should have had Sunak as well, along with half a trillion pounds on the fire, though the latter part would be a bit too close to reality

We don’t appear to have been snitched on thusfar which is good!

There’s quite a lot of traffic noise to be heard, even now as I write this. Last time it would have been pretty silent at this time of night. Evidently people are not staying at home. As we said yesterday, this is a far more telling verdict on this than some random poll.

I’m very tempted to set myself a target of flouting this lockdown at least once for every day that it goes on for, such is my anger about this.

 

[43066]

Possibly - but that wasn't my argument. @DavidB argued that the application of the policy was illogical; I replied that it is entirely logical on it's own terms, and that as a piece of legislation, writing it in terms of business types is sensible for enforceability.

Sorry, I don’t follow.

If outdoor/hospitality businesses aren’t spreaders of the virus (as you seem to have acknowledged), surely it’s illogical to close those businesses down?

The point of the policy (we can only assume) isn’t just to be “logical on its own terms”, and close a bunch of similar businesses down, it’s to reduce the spread of the virus.

 

[bramling]

Sorry, I don’t follow.

If outdoor/hospitality businesses aren’t spreaders of the virus (as you seem to have acknowledged), surely it’s illogical to close those businesses down?

The point of the policy (we can only assume) isn’t just to be “logical on its own terms”, and close a bunch of similar businesses down, it’s to reduce the spread of the virus.

I presume it’s about reducing the number of interactions between different households.

There is a twisted logic to the notion that to reduce spread you have to choose from a list of things, and if you accept that some things are priorities *not* to close (eg schools and essential workplaces being the two most obvious), then it simply leaves other things more exposed.

Where this falls down is of course the reality that people can simply meet in houses instead, which I suspect is what’s happening, and has probably been happening since the spring, and a Hancock fisty-tantrum isn’t going to stop it.

 

[Baxenden Bank]

Should have had Sunak as well, along with half a trillion pounds on the fire, though the latter part would be a bit too close to reality

We don’t appear to have been snitched on thusfar which is good!

There’s quite a lot of traffic noise to be heard, even now as I write this. Last time it would have been pretty silent at this time of night. Evidently people are not staying at home. As we said yesterday, this is a far more telling verdict on this than some random poll.

I’m very tempted to set myself a target of flouting this lockdown at least once for every day that it goes on for, such is my anger about this.

I bought some non-essential tea towels today. Does that count?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I suspect the use of tiers will continue after lockdown and extending furlough should reduce the haggling over finances that we saw before.

This is what should have been in place when the tier system was bought in and then we wouldn't have seen the delay in areas moving up the tiers and especially tier 3 which only served to allow virus transmission levels to continue unabated resulting in hospitalisations and thus scaring Boris into a national lockdown.

 

[DB]

This is what should have been in place when the tier system was bought in and then we wouldn't have seen the delay in areas moving up the tiers and especially tier 3 which only served to allow virus transmission levels to continue unabated resulting in hospitalisations and thus scaring Boris into a national lockdown.

Don't think that made any difference - the timescales were too short for any difference to be observable anyway.

 

[hst43102]

Should have had Sunak as well, along with half a trillion pounds on the fire, though the latter part would be a bit too close to reality

Not wishing to drag this thread off topic, but I firmly disagree with you there. Sunak might be the only capable member of the current government, I think he's done a cracking good job of managing the financial side of this crisis, without any experience.

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Thats the problem - some people are completely irrational. Apparently it doesn't matter how many people die of cancer because they can't get appointments, it doesn't matter how many people commit suicide because of lockdown. Provided one life is saved due to avoiding COVID that is all that matters.

I would suggest the issue the govt is really concerned about is the risk hospitals end up looking like a Military Field hospital and the negative connotations that would have on the public is there main driver with this policy.

 

[david1212]

Regarding the continuation of the current furlough scheme until the end of March rather than the job support scheme first due to commence 1st November and which was modified then due to start in December I've updated my post here .

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Not wishing to drag this thread off topic, but I firmly disagree with you there. Sunak might be the only capable member of the current government, I think he's done a cracking good job of managing the financial side of this crisis, without any experience.

Any of us with access to a monopoly bank can do his job all hes doing is signing the cheques.

I also thought initially he looked less political and more sensible but his stalling over paying out more furlough for Tier 3 areas did not help in slowing down the transmission rate. That was a bad call over 10's millions and now we are in for 10-20B or more.

Also they still don't get that unless your in a well paid salaried job with full sick pay or the ability to wfh its a tough call to self isolate. Had they incentivised the poorer or self employed people to isolate with fair amounts of cash they would have reduced transmission rates and potentially avoided the large costs of lockdown let alone the long run economic damage this is doing.

 

[DJH1971]

Rail Travel Voucher, a voucher which can be used to buy tickets from a station booking office. Used to be used for delay repay but since that went to cash they've become fairly irrelevant.

Just been on the Facebook page and their are offering vouchers or free amendments for advance tickets purchased before 01/11/2020.

I have just enquired as I bought my tickets in September, so looks like I can salvage something out of this.

 

[sheff1]

In the minds of the baby boomers, all other generations live only to serve the baby boomers.

What an awful generation they are.

So one poster can read my mind and another is equally certain I am awful. The skills are here get more amazing by the day ...
.... Or, more likely, the government tatics of divide and rule are achieving the success they want.

Don't care what some random person on Twitter says but what's with the total societal division and resorting to cheap insults

You tell us as (see above quote).

 

[MrTurbostar170]

Group of about twenty of us went to the local park this evening to set off fireworks. (uni accommodation so no gardens or anything like that). No problems, was a lot of fun!

 

[yorkie]

So one poster can read my mind and another is equally certain I am awful. The skills are here get more amazing by the day ...
.... Or, more likely, the government tatics of divide and rule are achieving the success they want.

I will also defend @sheff1 and his generation here by pointing out to @Scotrail12 that many people in that generation do not support lockdowns.

Society is divided but it's not the generational divide that some people claim it is.

 

[sheff1]

Seemed as many fireworks as normal round here this evening. I am sure everyone was complying with the restrictions though and not participating in illegal gatherings.

 

[Scotrail12]

Seemed as many fireworks as normal round here this evening. I am sure everyone was complying with the restrictions though and not participating in illegal gatherings.

Fireworks were until 11.05pm here!

 

[DustyBin]

I bought some non-essential tea towels today. Does that count?

Yes that makes you a very naughty boy, and I applaud you for it!

For my part I went out to buy a bottle of decent Malbec as all I had in was one bottle of corner-shop-special Merlot that I bought the other week on my way home from the pub (already leathered
I hasten to add). I didn’t drink it then so I certainly wasn’t going to drink it on a school night....

 

[hst43102]

Group of about twenty of us went to the local park this evening to set off fireworks. (uni accommodation so no gardens or anything like that). No problems, was a lot of fun!

I'm glad that you had lots of fun, and I wish all of us were able to go out and have fun. However, I do think it is a little irresponsible of twenty of you to go out - the rule of two is crazy, but twenty is really pushing your luck.