Lockdown in England from Thursday 5 November until Wednesday 2 December

[Richard Scott]

My partner is a history teacher and every year when talking about the iron curtain students ask why people didn’t just leave; unfortunately with this, it’s just the same, governments normalised the practices and by the time the population realised what was happening it was too late.

Also was the threat of being shot or your family being targeted! Not too dissimilar with the constant bombardment of messages telling us to help save lives, might kill granny etc.

 

[yorksrob]

The question itself may appear open, but as Theresa May pointed out yesterday in parliament, we’re being manipulated. The government is deciding what it wants to do and is then finding statistics to support it, rather than looking at the statistics and then deciding what to do. She made the point very well actually and I don’t generally rate her at all. Is it not obvious that this is what is happening?

Shades of the "dodgy dossier" that tainted a previous Government.

 

[RT4038]

The question itself may appear open, but as Theresa May pointed out yesterday in parliament, we’re being manipulated. The government is deciding what it wants to do and is then finding statistics to support it, rather than looking at the statistics and then deciding what to do. She made the point very well actually and I don’t generally rate her at all. Is it not obvious that this is what is happening?

In terms of general support for the lockdown I can’t see where it’s coming from. It’s obvious what the consensus is on here but I don’t know anybody who supports it. My work colleagues are all (minimum) degree educated and professionally qualified people earning a good living, none of whom support it and openly question the narrative. I deal with construction companies on a daily basis and the directors of these companies absolutely do not support it as it’s bad for business. On site I like to chat with the lads (and lasses, on the rare occasion I encounter one!), that’s everybody from the site manager to the labourers and none of them support it as it threatens their employment. My GF has a senior HR role in a very large company and she doesn’t support it due to concerns over the economy and her employees mental health (she’s had to deal with some very difficult situations lately including an attempted suicide). At the boxing gym I go to I mix with an interesting group of people. I know professional fighters who’ve had their means to earn a living severely restricted or removed altogether, with careers put on hold; needless to say they’ve long since had enough. At the other end of the spectrum there are young lads who are simply trying to get their lives back on track having been in trouble with the law and find the gym provides discipline and a sense of purpose. They all come from very deprived backgrounds but want to better themselves and need all the help they can get and lockdowns are extremely damaging for them. Finally, my mother and her husband (stepfather I suppose!) are both well into their 70’s and are generally as compliant as you can get. They respect authority, the law etc. but absolutely do not support this lockdown. They want to enjoy their remaining years and worry about the impact on younger people.

That’s a decent cross section of society, with zero support for lockdowns. I’m not claiming it’s representative of society as a whole, but nor is it a ‘bubble’. I just find it hard to believe that so many people support such a destructive measure, and if they do I’d question whether they fully understand the facts and the implications.

So being anti lockdown all boils down to the effect on their money, and the inconvenience to which they may be put? No concern seemingly on the health of others, the overwhelming of the NHS etc?

 

[telstarbox]

With reference to the YouGov poll I quoted earlier - it doesn't mean that the 72% who "support" the lockdown do so enthusiastically. Many people are critical of the government's handling of the pandemic, but think that a lockdown is now necessary to prevent high numbers of excess death going into the winter.

 

[RT4038]

With reference to the YouGov poll I quoted earlier - it doesn't mean that the 72% who "support" the lockdown do so enthusiastically. Many people are critical of the government's handling of the pandemic, but think that a lockdown is now necessary to prevent high numbers of excess death going into the winter.

Who would be enthusiastic about a lockdown? Everyone is critical of the government's (or any other government) handling of the pandemic - everyone has their own idea of how it should have been handled to avoid inconvenience or financial effect on them. Lockdown should have been earlier/later/never/ harsher/ softer/ different / more strictly enforced; money should / shouldn't have been spent on test & trace / vaccines / business support / hospitals / medical staff pay / training / PPE - you name it, everyone has a different view.

I suspect that most of those contributing to this thread wouldn't last very long coping with the pressures of being 'in charge' and having to make the decisions and living with the consequences of them on everybody [not just themselves and their immediate circle], particularly if the bodies start spilling out into the street. The constant sniping by everybody, who think they could do the job better...... I bet!

 

[Horizon22]

With reference to the YouGov poll I quoted earlier - it doesn't mean that the 72% who "support" the lockdown do so enthusiastically. Many people are critical of the government's handling of the pandemic, but think that a lockdown is now necessary to prevent high numbers of excess death going into the winter.

This is true - I don't think I either oppose or support; a circuit breaker type thing I was more supportive of but that moment passed but it is in effect a type of 'lockdown', so I guess I'd be included in the 72% yet I'm somewhere in the middle and not very supportive of this month long approach with no exit strategy.

Who would be enthusiastic about a lockdown? Everyone is critical of the government's (or any other government) handling of the pandemic - everyone has their own idea of how it should have been handled to avoid inconvenience or financial effect on them. Lockdown should have been earlier/later/never/ harsher/ softer/ different / more strictly enforced; money should / shouldn't have been spent on test & trace / vaccines / business support / hospitals / medical staff pay / training / PPE - you name it, everyone has a different view.

Maybe "enthusiastic" isn't the right word - but there are definitely those who believe it must be done immediately and hard but come to that conclusion grudgingly.

 

[Bantamzen]

I suspect that most of those contributing to this thread wouldn't last very long coping with the pressures of being 'in charge' and having to make the decisions and living with the consequences of them on everybody [not just themselves and their immediate circle], particularly if the bodies start spilling out into the street. The constant sniping by everybody, who think they could do the job better...... I bet!

Well that's told us then..... Ladies & gentlemen please don't offer differing opinions to the government's because clearly we don't know what we are talking about, even though there are experts in these fields that share the same views....

 

[adc82140]

So being anti lockdown all boils down to the effect on their money, and the inconvenience to which they may be put? No concern seemingly on the health of others, the overwhelming of the NHS etc?

The NHS will not be overwhelmed. The head of NHS Providers has said as much. Services may have to be reorganised and re prioritised, but the concept of people being turned away at the door has been invented by some elements of the media and government.

 

[MikeWM]

Was out and about around London yesterday, as I was in the Midlands on March 23rd. The atmosphere yesterday couldn't have felt more different, and I don't believe that's just a geographical thing. I don't think this lockdown will be taken nearly as seriously as the first by nearly as many people.

Though some of the people I work with do seem to be in favour of this lockdown #2 - heard comments earlier this week like 'the right thing to do' and 'should have been done earlier'. So they are presumably part of the '72%', though I do still think that figure is a lot higher than the reality. (Remember the very dodgy YouGov poll a few months back on masks, that mysteriously had a massive sudden flip from 'against' to 'for'? They were queried on that, but never gave a good answer as far as I'm aware).

 

[bramling]

Doubt it. There has been no evidence anywhere of a cluster being traced back to a shop.

One way or other, it makes a mockery of “social distancing” to artificially pack a place out. We saw the same with Eat Out To Help Out.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Nov 2020 ==

Shades of the "dodgy dossier" that tainted a previous Government.

I think it’s pretty certain that any inquiry after this is going to be pretty damning.

 

[43066]

I suspect that most of those contributing to this thread wouldn't last very long coping with the pressures of being 'in charge' and having to make the decisions and living with the consequences of them on everybody [not just themselves and their immediate circle], particularly if the bodies start spilling out into the street. The constant sniping by everybody, who think they could do the job better...... I bet!

So by logic nobody can ever criticise anything the government does.

Sorry but it’s their job to make tough decisions. Boris Johnson has spent his entire career trying to wheedle his way into the top job and, now that he’s got there, he has been exposed as a complete charlatan.

If you can’t stand the heat...

 

[DustyBin]

So being anti lockdown all boils down to the effect on their money, and the inconvenience to which they may be put? No concern seemingly on the health of others, the overwhelming of the NHS etc?

Apart from the fact that you've ignored the points regarding mental health (does that not matter?), I find it astonishing that you'd dismiss peoples concerns in this way. I mean, how selfish of them! Imagine worrying about losing your livlihood and not being able to pay essential bills and support your family. Presumbaly you have no such pressures?

 

[Darandio]

I don't think this lockdown will be taken nearly as seriously as the first by nearly as many people.

I have to agree, especially with what I have seen this morning.

Compared to the last lockdown where there was mass compliance around here and the local shopping centre was eerily quiet from day one, this morning it was as busy as ever. The smaller Asda was a great case in point with 12-15 people queuing for fireworks and blocking the only part people can walk through after buying their shopping.

In case anyone was wondering why I was there on day one of lockdown, i'd just dropped the little one off at school and called in on the way back.

 

[35B]

The question itself may appear open, but as Theresa May pointed out yesterday in parliament, we’re being manipulated. The government is deciding what it wants to do and is then finding statistics to support it, rather than looking at the statistics and then deciding what to do. She made the point very well actually and I don’t generally rate her at all. Is it not obvious that this is what is happening?

In terms of general support for the lockdown I can’t see where it’s coming from. It’s obvious what the consensus is on here but I don’t know anybody who supports it. My work colleagues are all (minimum) degree educated and professionally qualified people earning a good living, none of whom support it and openly question the narrative. I deal with construction companies on a daily basis and the directors of these companies absolutely do not support it as it’s bad for business. On site I like to chat with the lads (and lasses, on the rare occasion I encounter one!), that’s everybody from the site manager to the labourers and none of them support it as it threatens their employment. My GF has a senior HR role in a very large company and she doesn’t support it due to concerns over the economy and her employees mental health (she’s had to deal with some very difficult situations lately including an attempted suicide). At the boxing gym I go to I mix with an interesting group of people. I know professional fighters who’ve had their means to earn a living severely restricted or removed altogether, with careers put on hold; needless to say they’ve long since had enough. At the other end of the spectrum there are young lads who are simply trying to get their lives back on track having been in trouble with the law and find the gym provides discipline and a sense of purpose. They all come from very deprived backgrounds but want to better themselves and need all the help they can get and lockdowns are extremely damaging for them. Finally, my mother and her husband (stepfather I suppose!) are both well into their 70’s and are generally as compliant as you can get. They respect authority, the law etc. but absolutely do not support this lockdown. They want to enjoy their remaining years and worry about the impact on younger people.

That’s a decent cross section of society, with zero support for lockdowns. I’m not claiming it’s representative of society as a whole, but nor is it a ‘bubble’. I just find it hard to believe that so many people support such a destructive measure, and if they do I’d question whether they fully understand the facts and the implications.

I don’t disagree that there is positioning of the statistics, and that many people’s engagement with discussion on the merits of lockdown, masks, or whatever is pretty passive. As a result, that poll does not tell us the strength of support, just that 3 times as many support as oppose lockdown.

As for samples being representative, I don’t intend to suggest that you, I or anyone else lives in a particularly enclosed bubble. I just observe from experience that the population at large frequently does not conform to what experience of those we encounter would suggest “should” be the outcome, and that dismissing this poll result because of that is probably mistaken.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Nov 2020 ==

Also was the threat of being shot or your family being targeted! Not too dissimilar with the constant bombardment of messages telling us to help save lives, might kill granny etc.

Utter rubbish. The comparison of genuinely oppressive regimes, where disobedience would have life changing consequences, with the moral pressure being exerted over Covid is to compare night and day.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Nov 2020 ==

Doubt it. There has been no evidence anywhere of a cluster being traced back to a shop.

No evidence, or none published?

 

[adc82140]

No evidence, or none published?

Why would they keep it from us?

 

[C J Snarzell]

I'm wondering if there is a logistical agenda to the new lockdown to support the NHS?

Some areas of the country have seen very low numbers of new cases and Covid fatality. However, are the government 'pooling' NHS resources across the country - so that hospitals in low risk areas are assisting other sites that are over whelmed with admissions? (I hope that makes sense, what I am trying to explain!)

For example, my cousin is at nurse at the Wigan Royal Albert Edward Infirmary - she has stated the infirmary has been receiving patients being farmed out from places like Blackburn and Oldham - these towns have been hit hard by the virus.

CJ

 

[bramling]

I have to agree, especially with what I have seen this morning.

Compared to the last lockdown where there was mass compliance around here and the local shopping centre was eerily quiet from day one, this morning it was as busy as ever. The smaller Asda was a great case in point with 12-15 people queuing for fireworks and blocking the only part people can walk through after buying their shopping.

In case anyone was wondering why I was there on day one of lockdown, i'd just dropped the little one off at school and called in on the way back.

Same here; life seems pretty normal apart from some shops being closed. People are simply crowding out the remaining ones which are open.

Nice one Boris!

Meanwhile, and rather disturbingly, the main focus on local social media here this morning can be summed up as “for goodness sake close the schools”. One local school having a teacher test positive seems to be the motivation behind this.

 

[DB]

Why would they keep it from us?

Quite - if they actually had any confirmed instances it would support the government narrative and they would certainly be keen to publish it!

 

[RT4038]

Well that's told us then..... Ladies & gentlemen please don't offer differing opinions to the government's because clearly we don't know what we are talking about, even though there are experts in these fields that share the same views....

Presenting differing opinions is fine, and everybody has a slightly different one - however these opinions are easy when there is no responsibility to everyone in their outcome. In every field experts will have different views. Government has to go for one or the other. Perhaps the country should have a referendum on the matter of lockdown, as we know how well they settle things?

Apart from the fact that you've ignored the points regarding mental health (does that not matter?), I find it astonishing that you'd dismiss peoples concerns in this way. I mean, how selfish of them! Imagine worrying about losing your livlihood and not being able to pay essential bills and support your family. Presumbaly you have no such pressures?

I am not dismissing those peoples concerns, I am pointing out that they are not the only concerns. Which concerns are more important? Depends where you stand.

 

[adc82140]

I'm wondering if there is a logistical agenda to the new lockdown to support the NHS?

Some areas of the country have seen very low numbers of new cases and Covid fatality. However, are the government 'pooling' NHS resources across the country - so that hospitals in low risk areas are assisting other sites that are over whelmed with admissions? (I hope that makes sense, what I am trying to explain!)

For example, my cousin is at nurse at the Wigan Royal Albert Edward Infirmary - she has stated the infirmary has been receiving patients being farmed out from places like Blackburn and Oldham - these towns have been hit hard by the virus.

CJ

This is what should be happening. The French have converted some TGV stock into mobile ITUs to transfer patients to areas less stretched. We have this obsession in the UK health service about trying to treat patients in their local hospital. To put it bluntly it's not like the Covid patients will have visitors bringing them grapes and Hello magazine. So therefore send them to the hospitals with more space.

There was that silly quote from either Whitty or Hancock earlier in the week (can't remember which) that we have 22 hospital's worth of Covid patients. There are 1250 hospitals in the UK, and just under 200 with a Cat 1 A&E.

In addition, how big is a hospital? In my patch, Derriford in Plymouth has 1000 beds, North Devon District has 423. Newton Abbot has about two dozen.

 

[DB]

I am not dismissing those peoples concerns, I am pointing out that they are not the only concerns. Which concerns are more important? Depends where you stand.

You also miss the point that while the bad outcomes of this lockdown are clear, it's far less clear what te positive ones might be - if it reduces the infection rate (which was already looking to be reducing anyway), so what? There is still no exit strategy so the situation just drags on. A vaccine is always a few months away but never arrives - unsurprisingly given that they usually take a couple of years at least. If one never appears, or not until the pandemic has died down anyway, all the measures will have achieved precisely nothing positive but caused massive amounts of damage.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Nov 2020 ==

This is what should be happening. The French have converted some TGV stock into mobile ITUs to transfer patients to areas less stretched. We have this obsession in the UK health service about trying to treat patients in their local hospital. To put it bluntly it's not like the Covid patients will have visitors bringing them grapes and Hello magazine. So therefore send them to the hospitals with more space.

The UK also has half the land area of France, with most of the population being in England plus the lower half of Scotland - moving patients around between hospitals is therefore likely to take less time.

 

[6862]

The BBC are reporting that Sunak will extend furlough until March. So I think it's a pretty safe bet that this lockdown will last more than 1 month. Perhaps not the full 4 months until March but I bet it'll be most of that time!

 

[Scotrail12]

The BBC are reporting that Sunak will extend furlough until March. So I think it's a pretty safe bet that this lockdown will last more than 1 month. Perhaps not the full 4 months until March but I bet it'll be most of that time!

My heart sank when I saw that. And yet more money for my generation to pay back in future...

Money doesn't grow on trees - when will these fools realise?

 

[bramling]

The BBC are reporting that Sunak will extend furlough until March. So I think it's a pretty safe bet that this lockdown will last more than 1 month. Perhaps not the full 4 months until March but I bet it'll be most of that time!

Why would he extend a measure which is now meant to only apply to businesses forced to close as a result of lockdown measures? Oh...

An utterly disgraceful waste of public money. I suppose Sunak has to do something to rebuild his standing, now he’s (rightly or wrongly) credited with starting the second wave via Eat Out To Help Out.

Has anyone else noticed the way he is now branding himself? Measures are accompanied by what can only be described as electronic versions of what would otherwise be posters akin to what we see during election campaigns, with a modified version of the Conservatives tree logo bearing the words “Rishi Sunak”. I find this bordering on propaganda.

 

[DB]

My heart sank when I saw that. And yet more money for my generation to pay back in future...

Money doesn't grow on trees - when will these fools realise?

Indeed.

And do they not realise that this is sowing yet more division? Those of us who've worked our arses off throughout this (in many cases for no extra pay) are getting increasingly irritated about others being paid most of their salary to sit at home and do nothing.

 

[HSTEd]

My heart sank when I saw that. And yet more money for my generation to pay back in future...

In the minds of the baby boomers, all other generations live only to serve the baby boomers.

The last 40 years has taught us that, if nothing else.

 

[Scotrail12]

Indeed.

And do they not realise that this is sowing yet more division? Those of us who've worked our arses off throughout this (in many cases for no extra pay) are getting increasingly irritated about others being paid most of their salary to sit at home and do nothing.

It's going to do nothing to kill some of the pro lockdown attitudes as long as a certain number of people (not all on furlough, many are hard working and want to be back at work) are more than content to be paid money to do nothing, sleep in until 10am and then sit at home eating junk and watching ITV daytime programmes.

 

[philosopher]

My heart sank when I saw that. And yet more money for my generation to pay back in future...

Money doesn't grow on trees - when will these fools realise?

I was hoping Sunak would put his foot down with Furlough and say enough is enough. Obviously not and now there is very real prospect of repeated lockdowns until at least March.

 

[bramling]

I was hoping Sunak would put his foot down with Furlough and say enough is enough. Obviously not and now there is very real prospect of repeated lockdowns until at least March.

The existence of furlough would more or less guarantee that I’d say.

 

[Scotrail12]

In the minds of the baby boomers, all other generations live only to serve the baby boomers.

The last 40 years has taught us that, if nothing else.

What an awful generation they are. The world seems to have always been in their favour and of course, in their youth, they didn't have to shut down for the Hong Kong flu pandemic (at that point, many of them were around my age but didn't have a year of their life ruined).