If Sectorisation ever returned, how would you organise the sectors?

[Bevan Price]

I would have a simple arrangement:
Passenger Sector
Freight Sector
Traction Maintenance Section
Track Operation & Maintenance Sector.

Fragmented passenger operations were generally unhelpful for passengers, especially relating to connections between different sectors / operators.

 

[Purple Orange]

Nothing wrong but not necessary, you want to keep away from the BR brand.

Certainly keep away from the BR brand, but that doesn’t mean that Britain can’t be referenced in any future brand. Not using the BR logo would help.

 

[Energy]

Certainly keep away from the BR brand, but that doesn’t mean that Britain can’t be referenced in any future brand. Not using the BR logo would help.

Its quite hard to get away from the BR brand though while including Britain, do not reference the UK unless we are including Northern Ireland. Ones like Express Britain and Network Britain are ok but don't sound too great.

 

[Purple Orange]

Its quite hard to get away from the BR brand though while including Britain, do not reference the UK unless we are including Northern Ireland. Ones like Express Britain and Network Britain are ok but don't sound too great.

I don’t think that BR connotations cover every possible use of Britain, British, GB, Great Britain/British in combination with another suitable word. The biggest link to BR would be one distinct national brand across the whole railway (regardless of the name) and bringing Intercity, Network South East and Regional Railways (which is an awful brand name).

 

[Gareth]

And Britain is shorthand for the UK anyway, in the same way America is for the USA.

I don't get this "need to get way from BR" thing. BR (in abbreviated form) would be a fine brand. Much less do I understand any desire to do away with the double arrow logo. It's one of the most recognised logos in the country.

 

[Purple Orange]

Because British Rail is a name that is generally unloved and associated with poor performance. Of brought back, some decent marketing would need to go in to it, but I equally don’t see why the old names should necessarily be used anyway.

 

[Gareth]

I'd say a good chunk of the population either have a rose-tinted view of British Rail or are too young to remember it. It's way too much of a generalisation to say the brand is associated with poor performance.

Old names don't have to be used but, at the same time, they can be. Any new name you come up with would ideally work at least as well and preferably better.

 

[Energy]

And Britain is shorthand for the UK anyway, in the same way America is for the USA

It is not shorthand. Britain is England, Wales and Scotland while the UK is England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

 

[ivorytoast28]

The ultimate problem is these days people prefer using trains for longer distance travel as it is faster than cars. And that combined with many local lines simply not existing means using regions doesn't make as much sense as it did back then. Operators tend to use branching lines out of major cities rather than regions

 

[Gareth]

It is not shorthand. Britain is England, Wales and Scotland while the UK is England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

FFS, no it isn't. That's Great Britain.

 

[Energy]

FFS, no it isn't. That's Great Britain.

Britain and Great Britain are used interchangeably. Great is simply because it is the largest island in the British Isles.

 

[Gareth]

No, the island is called Great Britain. That's its name. Some people are increasingly using just Britain to mean Great Britain but it's incorrect.

Britain is more commonly used interchangeably with the UK. You're not UKish, you're British. "Britain is a member of the G7" is a statement nobody serious would query. The statement is talking about the UK, not the island of Great Britain, nor England, Scotland & Wales sans Northern Ireland.

 

[High Dyke]

It would probably become part of my “Network Northeast” as most of the route lies in the Yorkshire & Humber region.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 30 Oct 2020 ==


Okay I see. Maybe a better idea would be to just use those names as brands on a nationalised network rather than them being affiliated with the entire operations and staffing.

North Lincolnshire and North East Lincolnshire, if you don't mind.

 

[Gareth]

Still in the Leeds-based Yorkshire & the Humber region, as opposed to the Nottingham-based East Midlands.

 

[NoMorePacers]

I'd argue folk in places like Barton have much more in common with those north of the river than they do in Lincolnshire proper - in fact I'd be fully in favour of reinstating the non-metropolitan authority of Humberside, which is a decidedly unpopular view in this part of the world (at least from my experience).

But that's another argument for another thread.

 

[Energy]

No, the island is called Great Britain. That's its name. Some people are increasingly using just Britain to mean Great Britain but it's incorrect.

Britain is more commonly used interchangeably with the UK. You're not UKish, you're British. "Britain is a member of the G7" is a statement nobody serious would query. The statement is talking about the UK, not the island of Great Britain, nor England, Scotland & Wales sans Northern Ireland.

Google says that Britain is only for England and Wales. UK, Britain and Great Britain are used interchangeably (if incorrectly) so at this point it is pedantic. On the British bit, many people from NI would refer to themselves as Northern Irish, don't know if people call themselves British or not.

I would still not bother with including Britain in the name, it just adds more complexity. Branding should make it easy to tell what train you need to get, adding Britain into the name doesn't make it any easier. You could name Network Rail something to do with Britain but it already has a name which is fine.

I'm still avoiding the BR brand, the connotations it has varies depending on where you are but for many they would think of an old 150 or pacer or of the Beeching cuts. Also because what I'm proposing is not BR, its a concession which is awarded by NR.

 

[Gareth]

Google clearly doesn't know what it's on about then.

"Britain" is a geopolitical word referring to the state officially named the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Northern Ireland. Likewise, America means the USA, even though most of the Americas are not a part of it. Furthermore, one US state, Hawaii, isn't even part of the Americas at all but Oceania. France has territory in South America. They're not external territories like Gibraltar or the Falklands but an integral part of the state. So, yes, Northern Ireland is a part of Britain until/unless a referendum decides otherwise. If Scotland was to leave the UK, it would also cease to be a part of Britain, despite being part of the island of Great Britain and the British Isles. In that scenario, Google wouldn't be as spectacularly wrong as you infer.

As for British Rail, I don't see the big problem; especially if it was abbreviated to BR (sort of like British Telecom becoming BT). National Rail or NR would be a decent alternative.

 

[geordieblue]

Google says that Britain is only for England and Wales.

Everything else aside this is objectively wrong - IIRC around 70% of Scots feel some degree of British identity even if a majority feel more Scottish than British.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

British Rail makes sense to me, 'National Rail' sounds like it could be anywhere on Earth. Plus, British Rail rolls off the tounge better than National Rail-which is why we probably hardly ever hear it used it everyday life-'go to the National Rail station' for instance.

Google doesn't know what its on about-Britain means "the British state".

Even in these days of devolution-"British Rail" still makes sense. Couldn't Cross-Country, Avanti, LNER etc be described as British because they aern't strictly localised to one nation of the UK? Sure, keep the Scotrail name for trains completely within Scotland, but you don't need an English Rail which would cover most of Britain's railways for politics sake.

If it was up to me, I'd abolish TfW anyway and divide Wales's railways between GWR in the south and centre and Avanti in the North as per pre-nationalisation lines.

 

[Taunton]

I always thought it a shame that the various TOCs were not set up as subsets of the various sectors, so there was the ability to have some common elements of marketing retained that followed the old sector pattern, such as the Inter-City branding or ticketing across the old NSE area, even though by different operators.

 

[43096]

I always thought it a shame that the various TOCs were not set up as subsets of the various sectors, so there was the ability to have some common elements of marketing retained that followed the old sector pattern, such as the Inter-City branding or ticketing across the old NSE area, even though by different operators.

They were originally. With the exception of Anglia Railways, which combined elements of InterCity and Regional Railways, the initial franchises matched the previous BR sub-sector organisations.

 

[XAM2175]

Google says that Britain is only for England and Wales.

For pedantry's sake, in the vast majority of cases something that Google "says" is in fact something that Google has found somebody else saying.

Having just now searched for "Britain" the first result is the Wikipedia page for the United Kingdom:

The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, commonly known as the United Kingdom (UK or U.K.) or Britain, is a sovereign country located off the ...

and the second result is the Wikipedia disambiguation page for Britain:

Britain usually refers to the United Kingdom, a sovereign state comprising the island of Great Britain, the north-eastern part of the island of Ireland and many ...

and the infobox at the right-hand said reads:

United Kingdom - Country in Europe - The United Kingdom, made up of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, is an island nation in northwestern Europe. ...

Regardless in the real world there is no great contention that the term "Britain" and its derivatives can be used with some flexibility depending on context.

I also don't feel that the British Rail brand is quite as noxious as some seem to think, especially amongst people who only started to use the railways after it was privatised. I've no expectation of ever seeing it brought back, but neither do I view it as impossible.

Incidentally Network Rail have been doubling-down of late on using the double-arrow symbol in station wayfinding, and are replacing their own "Brunel" typeface with a modernised version of BR's Rail Alphabet.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

are replacing their own "Brunel" typeface with a modernised version of BR's Rail Alphabet.

Really? I haven't noticed that. Then again I'm sadly not on the railway much these days.

 

[XAM2175]

Really? I haven't noticed that. Then again I'm sadly not on the railway much these days.

Very early days at the moment - I recall it was only July that they started showing off samples. Apparently something of a pet project for NR Chairman Sir Peter Hendy.

 

[43096]

Very early days at the moment - I recall it was only July that they started showing off samples. Apparently something of a pet project for NR Chairman Sir Peter Hendy.

Just need this to be mandated by the DfT for all the TOCs to get rid of all the rubbish signage on stations.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Just need this to be mandated by the DfT for all the TOCs to get rid of all the rubbish signage on stations.

Agreed. With a common livery for trains too.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I'd do it like this;
InterCity:

• West Coast
• East Coast
• Great Western
• Cross Country (Inc. Scotland, TransPennine & Chiltern expresses)
• South & East (GatEx, Heathrow Express & Anglia services)

Network South East:

• Southern
• South East
• South West
• East (LTS & Liverpool St Anglia services)
• Thameslink & Great Northern
• LNWR & Chiltern (High Wycombe & Aylesbury stoppers)

Regional Railways:

• Anglia
• Chiltern
• West
• Wales
• West Midlands
• East Midlands
• North West
• North East & Yorkshire
• ScotRail

Railfreight:

• Coal & Power
• Metals
• Construction & Minerals
• Oil, Fuel & Gas
• Shipping, Transport & Roads (Intermodal, Flasks and Cars)

 

[Energy]

I'd do it like this;
InterCity:

• West Coast
• East Coast
• Great Western
• Cross Country (Inc. Scotland, TransPennine & Chiltern expresses)
• South & East (GatEx, Heathrow Express & Anglia services)

Network South East:

• Southern
• South East
• South West
• East (LTS & Liverpool St Anglia services)
• Thameslink & Great Northern
• LNWR & Chiltern (High Wycombe & Aylesbury stoppers)

Regional Railways:

• Anglia
• Chiltern
• West
• Wales
• West Midlands
• East Midlands
• North West
• North East & Yorkshire
• ScotRail

Railfreight:

• Coal & Power
• Metals
• Construction & Minerals
• Oil, Fuel & Gas
• Shipping, Transport & Roads (Intermodal, Flasks and Cars)

Too many.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Too many.

I think it'll allow for greater control of the day to day running of services.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I think it'll allow for greater control of the day to day running of services.

'Control' by whom? You would still have five 'operators' between Manchester Piccadilly and Stockport for example (IC West Coast, IC Cross Country [including TransPennine], RR East Midlands, RR Wales and RR North West).