EMt +cnnectns Leeds - Sheffield

[Deerfold]

1. The situation which the OP presents: he/she is not booked onto any train between Leeds and Sheffield because the suggested schedule is with Northern, who do not reserve seats. As such, the OP can travel on any train between Leeds and Sheffield. In this case, is the +connections proportion a. given to Northern; b. shared proportionally between all the TOCs who could provide the train service between Leeds and Sheffield, according to ORCATS?

Presumably this then splits into two depending on whether the OP (me) can actually travel on any train between Leeds and Sheffield - an area about which there seems to be much debate.

 

[cuccir]

Well as Yorkie pointed out, revenue allocation isn't determinative of travel restrictions, though it might explain why Cross Country would want to change ticketing restrictions....

 

[Ferret]

Presumably this then splits into two depending on whether the OP (me) can actually travel on any train between Leeds and Sheffield - an area about which there seems to be much debate.

I don't actually think there needs to be much debate on this one. The acid test would be to invite any member of staff who questioned it to give you a ZF excess for the journey to London and submit a TIR. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be pursued. As far as I'm concerned, it's valid, end of!

I'm amazed that anyone from XC is remotely bothered about it anyway - I'd rather spend the 25 minutes out of Wakefield looking for people who think that Sheffield is in West Yorkshire and Leeds is in South Yorkshire quite honestly!

 

[yorkie]

Yes, I agree it's interesting to know but the curiosity aspect of revenue allocation must be kept separate from the question of validity.

All I can really clear up is that they are separate issues, I can't say exactly how revenue is allocated as unfortunately the information we have about revenue allocation is quite limited and the exact formulas and data is considered to be 'commercially sensitive'.

 

[Welshman]

I suppose given the present jumbled system, TOCs will technically lose-out by carrying other TOCs' customers, but perhaps that has to be accepted as part of the swings and roundabouts of a fragmented railway.
But unless the 1900 XC train is usually packed to the gunwhales, resulting in XC-specific customers being turned-away [which I would be very surprised if it was] then, as Ferret says,is it really worth the hassle? Allowing the OP to travel [as opposed to carrying an empty seat], is not costing XC any more, but they are gaining a much more friendly PR image, and given the amount of recent negative publicity XC has received on this forum alone [memories of the debates re the validity of South Pennines Day Rangers via XC as well as via Barnsley!], then surely the public perception of a welcoming image far outweighs any possible ORCATS loss. People still remember the old GNER, where everyone from Christopher Garnett downwards, made it quite clear it was a "Can do" and not a "Can't do" company, and that they were pleased to have you on board.

 

[Greenback]

I suppose given the present jumbled system, TOCs will technically lose-out by carrying other TOCs' customers, but perhaps that has to be accepted as part of the swings and roundabouts of a fragmented railway.

I think that's the only way to lolok at it!

But unless the 1900 XC train is usually packed to the gunwhales, resulting in XC-specific customers being turned-away [which I would be very surprised if it was] then, as Ferret says,is it really worth the hassle? Allowing the OP to travel [as opposed to carrying an empty seat], is not costing XC any more, but they are gaining a much more friendly PR image, and given the amount of recent negative publicity XC has received on this forum alone [memories of the debates re the validity of South Pennines Day Rangers via XC as well as via Barnsley!], then surely the public perception of a welcoming image far outweighs any possible ORCATS loss. People still remember the old GNER, where everyone from Christopher Garnett downwards, made it quite clear it was a "Can do" and not a "Can't do" company, and that they were pleased to have you on board.

To those on the front line, it's not really worth the hassle. However, for those in the FInance dept of DB, it is! As I have said elsewhere on the forums, I believe that XC are concerned because they are carrying large number sof people, and therefore receiving complaints about overcrowding, yet they are not hitting their forecast revenue tragets. This must cause the bean counters much anxiety, leading them to issue instructions to train crew to 'crack down' on anyone who is not holding a valid ticket (I have had the latter confirmed by contacts in XC).

This is where confusion sets in. Different members of staff will interpret the instruction in different ways. Some will also interpret the phrase 'valid ticket' differently. Some of this will be influenced by chat in the mess room. You end up with the situation that some staff consider that a +connections ticket won't be valid unless the punter has a reservation. (An instruction form management may also be ambiguous or worse in this respect).

The real reason that XC's revenue is lower than expected is because the forecasts were based on increases due to the introduction of afternoon restrictions and big price rises. Sadly (for them) customers have simply found ways around these measures, by splitting tickets and other perfectly legal means.

 

[maddeningcrowds]

EMT sell very cheap first class advances on this route out of peak hours so XC may also be fussing about exclusivity for their very expensive first class. I had an email discussion with EMT customer service about exactly one of these tickets and they said 'it is valid on any train between Leeds and Sheffield'. In the end I decided not to generate hassle and get the Northern service. It was more comfortable and friendly anyway, even than Xc first class (at least during mid morning the Northern service is nearly empty).

 

[yorkie]

I agree with EMTs view. did you experience a problem on XC ever on such a ticket?

 

[maddeningcrowds]

I've never tried it without a reservation. I have however made a connection from York to Leeds in XC first class on a NXEC advance to Edinburgh without a reservation. The ticket was checked and the XC lady hesitated but then moved on without saying anything. This was several months ago and I'm led to believe from this forum that XC are being more strict with their interpretation of the rules. The EMT customer service chap said it was 'Our understanding that...' which didn't fill me with 100% confidence.

 

[yorkie]

The EMT customer service chap said it was 'Our understanding that...' which didn't fill me with 100% confidence.

haha, tell me about it!

ATOC refuse to issue much in the way of guidance, and leave the individual TOCs to interpret how they wish :roll:

But in my experience, if a TOC makes an unreasonable interpretation, the customer can win the battle, but it can involve a lot of correspondence and sometimes threats from the TOC. Sometimes it's worth that, and sometimes it isn't.

To be fair to EMT, I'd say the same thing. It is my understanding, as well as theirs (and many others'!), that it's valid.

 

[clagmonster]

The relevent condition is:
"If the ‘Route’ also states ‘and Connections’, travel is allowed on appropriate connecting trains where shown on the ticket(s) or other valid travel itinerary."
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/advance_conditions.html

Now in the case of Leeds-Sheffield, the Northern services are non-reservable, so if you are initially 'booked' on one of these, if your ticket is on standard orange ticket stock rather than the airline style stock, no connecting train will be shown on the tickets. Therefore, we need to refer to an 'other valid travel itinerary' and in order to do that we need to determine what one is.
If you book over the internet or at some booking offices, you are given an itinary either with your ticket or in a booking confirmation. As this came with the ticket, this must surely be a valid travel itinerary.
Now, those people who are arguing that the ticket is valid on Cross Country services whether a reservation is issued or not are relying on an itinerary derived from an internet based journey planner being a 'valid travel itinerary'. Certainly it is a travel itinerary, but whether it is valid with such a ticket is not defined anywhere, thus it is certainly not clear cut. I suspect that some of the Cross Country guards who decline such tickets are doing so on the basis of the only 'valid travel itinerary' being that provided with the ticket. I think there is a decent argument either way, the only way to get a definitive answer would be for this to go to court or for ATOC to revise the conditions to clarify the issue.

Incidentally, even when I have had a reservation on a Cross Country train in those circumstances, I have had an argument as the guard believed that connecting services could only be local trains with no reservations. He quickly lost the ensuing discussion.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Incidentally, even when I have had a reservation on a Cross Country train in those circumstances, I have had an argument as the guard believed that connecting services could only be local trains with no reservations. He quickly lost the ensuing discussion.

I think when the '+connections' routeings first came out, it was on Virgin Value tickets, and IIRC there was a list of whose services constituted the connection. As I recall, there were no 'Intercity' operators listed, but that list disappeared a while ago, perhaps the guard had not noticed it disappear.

 

[clagmonster]

Interesting, thanks for that. He did say that booking offices shouldn't issue the reservation for that train.
Did the list you refer to apply only to Virgin Value tickets or was it all advance style +Connections tickets?

 

[yorkie]

The National Rail journey planner produces valid travel itineraries.

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/

This has the ability to increase connection times, for people who want to have more time to change trains (e.g people with a lot of luggage, families etc)

 

[clagmonster]

It produces travel itineraries, I agree, but where does it say that they are valid travel itineraries for this purpose? The problem is that as far as I can see a valid travel itinerary is not defined.

 

[yorkie]

It produces travel itineraries, I agree, but where does it say that they are valid travel itineraries for this purpose? The problem is that as far as I can see a valid travel itinerary is not defined.

I think it clearly has to be a valid travel itinerary.

But if it is considered that there is doubt about this, then there is legislation to deal with that....

Statutory Instrument 1999 No. 2083

Written contracts
7. - (2) If there is doubt about the meaning of a written term, the interpretation which is most favourable to the consumer shall prevail

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1999/19992083.htm

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Interesting, thanks for that. He did say that booking offices shouldn't issue the reservation for that train.
Did the list you refer to apply only to Virgin Value tickets or was it all advance style +Connections tickets?

I think Virgin were the first to move away from Super Advance and Apex, and they brought in their own 'Virgin Value' Singles and Returns (VVS/VVR), initially I think as 'rte Virgin Trains Only', but as the destination options opened up, I believe they changed the routeings to 'rte VXC+connections' and 'rte VWC+connections'. This would have been around 1998-2000 I reckon. The list of TOCs was in the ticket restrictions for the VVS/VVR I think.

IIRC, all Super Advance and Apex routeings at the time were particular stations, not operators. TOC only fares started appearing after that point, although exactly when they spread throughout the ticketing system and when the list disappeared I cannot say.

VVS/VVR became V7S, V3S and VVS, I think, before becoming Advance under 'simplification'.

 

[maddeningcrowds]

Regarding the booking office 'shouldn't' have issued the XC reservation, XC have some mechanism for limiting bookings on their services as the XC connection is often bookable for inter available fares but not available for the EMT advances. This has not always been the case as i have been able to book this connection with reservations on XC in the past.