Lockdown in England from Thursday 5 November until Wednesday 2 December

[yorkie]

Too bad. The Merseyside Government (My local government) are already in talks of a school lockdown as they think it's too risky for children and teens to go to school. I'm not sure what my opinion is toward's this move is. While yes, I think school students have had quite a long period off-school, Merseyside has one of the highest Covid-19 rates in England, so I'm not sure...

As someone who has extensive experience of working in an education environment, directly working with students including those who are disadvantaged/vulnerable (including several job roles such as Teaching Assistant, Midday Supervisory Assistant, and more; plus unofficial roles which have involved effectively teaching lessons as well as running numerous extracurricular activities, from running football activities to school trips including visiting a rail operations centre) I am absolutely sure what my opinion is: schools must not close.

It is difficult for me to put into words why schools must not close; but anyone who works in a school, especially one with disadvantaged students in attendance, cannot possibly take the view that schools should close in my opinion, at least not if they are familiar with the facts. While the Unions may purport the teaching profession wants schools to close, that opinion is not shared by the vast majority of teachers.

I have taken this view, and strongly believe it is the right one, after carrying out extensive research into the Sars-Cov-2 pandemic including reading a lot of research papers, and listening to interviews with many experts.

While people are entitled to a different view, I firmly believe they are very much mistaken and misunderstand either the importance of keeping schools open, or the true risks involved. I cannot feel any stronger than I do on this matter.

During this afternoon's parliament session there were a lot of MP's asking Johnson who do gyms have to shut during this lockdown, as they are good for mental and physical health. To which Johnson replied with the same answer to all of them, no we can't allow it unfortunately.

Someone has started a government petition to request that gyms should not have to close. It's already got almost half a million signatures. http://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/333869

I encourage everyone to consider signing this.

It's now up to 517,847 and going up all the time.

While I personally do not attend gyms, I understand the importance of this to others.

Furthermore, if gyms were to stay open, it would clearly allow outdoor sports to continue, which I also feel is very important (I have an interest in this; I am playing 5 hours of football this week, but throughout this pandemic I have always sought to put the needs of others, and wider society first; I'm not just saying this for my benefit, but because I am well aware of the huge impact it has on many people, and the chances of transmission are tiny).

 

[farleigh]

Yeah - I work in a school.

I have mentioned before that we have 1500 pupils, 120 odd staff and not one case of Covid since September.

The children at the school are now back into good routines and they enjoy being there. They are focussed on academic progress and are enjoying social interactions that they have missed out on for too long. To close the schools now would just compound the damage that was undoubtedly done by shutting them in March.

I suspect that those in favour of a lockdown are comfortable in the knowledge that their employment will not be threatened and are happy to compromise the happiness and wellbeing of students so that they can have a month or so at home. Maybe I am being a little cynical no?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

Hindsight, yes if only we had the resources Germany has. Last Covid19 peak they were treating victims sent over from France !.

We found 200B that we didnt have when Sunak did the budget so anything is possible its political will to do it thats lacking

 

[yorkie]

Yeah - I work in a school.

I have mentioned before that we have 1500 pupils, 120 odd staff and not one case of Covid since September.

We've had mild or asymptomatic cases (probably loads undetected, but no way to know)

Plenty of people far more ill with rhinoviruses though.

The children at the school are now back into good routines and they enjoy being there. They are focussed on academic progress and are enjoying social interactions that they have missed out on for too long. To close the schools now would just compound the damage that was undoubtedly done by shutting them in March.

I suspect that those in favour of a lockdown are comfortable in the knowledge that their employment will not be threatened and are happy to compromise the happiness and wellbeing of students so that they can have a month or so at home. Maybe I am being a little cynical no?

I strongly agree with all of this, and no you are not being cynical. You are absolutely spot on.

 

[DelayRepay]

As someone who has extensive experience of working in an education environment, directly working with students including those who are disadvantaged/vulnerable (including several job roles such as Teaching Assistant, Midday Supervisory Assistant, and more; plus unofficial roles which have involved effectively teaching lessons as well as running numerous extracurricular activities, from running football activities to school trips including visiting a rail operations centre) I am absolutely sure what my opinion is: schools must not close.

It is difficult for me to put into words why schools must not close; but anyone who works in a school, especially one with disadvantaged students in attendance, cannot possibly take the view that schools should close in my opinion, at least not if they are familiar with the facts. While the Unions may purport the teaching profession wants schools to close, that opinion is not shared by the vast majority of teachers.

I do not work in a school, and I do not have children. But I completely agree with your point of view here.

Children have already paid a high price in terms of disruption to their education, and should not face their schools being closed again.

Aside from education, and whether or not they can 'catch up', or whether online learning can be effective, schools play a crucial role in keeping children safe. With the current situation, some households are bound to be more stressed places, some children may not be fed properly due to lack of funds, some children may suffer neglect or abuse. School provides a safe space for children, and the teachers are the ones most likely to realise that something is wrong.

I am surprised to see some parents supporting school closures. All the parents I know struggled having their kids at home 24/7 whilst also trying to work, and were delighted when the schools opened again.

 

[westv]

Presumably we won't see the wholesale closure of public toilets that we saw last time - although having no café/restaurant facilities open will be a pain.

 

[cuccir]

Presumably we won't see the wholesale closure of public toilets that we saw last time - although having no café/restaurant facilities open will be a pain.

I'd also hope not. In contrast to March's lockdown, we now know that the main form of transmission is indoor, droplet based, and that the risk of infecton in short (<15 minute) periods of shared space is very minimal. 'Surface' transmission is not non-existent, but it is much less of a factor than initially expected.

More broadly, the lockdown laws this time round are much clearer that social interaciton in public spaces, primarily for exercise, is allowed. Playparks are remaining open. Takeaways are remaining open. I'd hope that eg National Trust parkland, nature reserves, country parks, city parks, are kept open in too. Having public toilets open facilitates access to these spaces at a minimal risk.

 

[Crossover]

Presumably we won't see the wholesale closure of public toilets that we saw last time - although having no café/restaurant facilities open will be a pain.

My experience is that many may not have opened after round 1, sadly. Over the last two weekends, I have been to Saltaire where the facilities in the park were in the cafe and signed out of use and the public toilets up the road were also out of use. Ended up walking to Shipley Asda!

Likewise last weekend I was at Lister Park near Bradford and they were shut, too. Thankfully they were working on the 333 we caught later (which in of itself is something of a rarity!)

 

[Class 33]

Two short videos I've just watched, which I'm posting links to recommend watching....

Julia Hartley-Brewer talking to Brendan O'Neil about government has chosen statistics to terrorise us into obedience.

And....

Julia Hartley-Brewer talking to professor David Livermore about numbers justifying second lockdown just don't make sense.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

My experience is that many may not have opened after round 1, sadly. Over the last two weekends, I have been to Saltaire where the facilities in the park were in the cafe and signed out of use and the public toilets up the road were also out of use. Ended up walking to Shipley Asda!

Likewise last weekend I was at Lister Park near Bradford and they were shut, too. Thankfully they were working on the 333 we caught later (which in of itself is something of a rarity!)

If they were public facilities it might have more to do with the fact Bradford Council closed all their public toilets, except the ones in Bradford City Centre, some time ago and pre-Covid.

 

[Crossover]

If they were public facilities it might have more to do with the fact Bradford Council closed all their public toilets, except the ones in Bradford City Centre, some time ago and pre-Covid.

Ah right - wasn’t aware of that. None looked particularly run down though, but still pretty poor either way

 

[yorkie]

Are we any closer to getting the legislation yet?

For example is it lawful for, say, 3 people to go for a walk outside (the risk of transmission is minimal but this isn't based on the science, so who knows!), or is it lawful to have a small group play football? Would the police be likely to take action against people engaging in such harmless events?

 

[Scotrail12]

Two short videos I've just watched, which I'm posting links to recommend watching....

Julia Hartley-Brewer talking to Brendan O'Neil about government has chosen statistics to terrorise us into obedience.

And....

Julia Hartley-Brewer talking to professor David Livermore about numbers justifying second lockdown just don't make sense.

Never thought the day would come where I appreciate Julia Hartley-Brewer but she's done a great job with her COVID related interviews and isn't letting any politician off the hook when they make foolish claims.

 

[MalaiseForever]

Are we any closer to getting the legislation yet?

For example is it lawful for, say, 3 people to go for a walk outside (the risk of transmission is minimal but this isn't based on the science, so who knows!), or is it lawful to have a small group play football? Would the police be likely to take action against people engaging in such harmless events?

You can meet one other person outside, maximum gathering of 2 people.

 

[ainsworth74]

Are we any closer to getting the legislation yet?

For example is it lawful for, say, 3 people to go for a walk outside (the risk of transmission is minimal but this isn't based on the science, so who knows!), or is it lawful to have a small group play football? Would the police be likely to take action against people engaging in such harmless events?

Not that I'm aware of and I doubt we'll see it until either very late tonight or early tomorrow morning ready for Parliament to debate.

You can meet one other person outside, maximum gathering of 2 people.

That's the guidance but on past performance the law is often not as strict as the guidance.

 

[yorkie]

You can meet one other person outside, maximum gathering of 2 people.

Is that actually in the legislation though?

In anycase it's yet more evidence this isn't based on any form of 'science' as the chance of transmission outdoors is minimal

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 3 Nov 2020 ==

That's the guidance but on past performance the law is often not as strict as the guidance.

Indeed; at one stage (and possibly even now; I lose track!) the guidance is for 6 but the legal limit was/is 30.

 

[island]

Are we any closer to getting the legislation yet?

For example is it lawful for, say, 3 people to go for a walk outside (the risk of transmission is minimal but this isn't based on the science, so who knows!), or is it lawful to have a small group play football? Would the police be likely to take action against people engaging in such harmless events?

Not published yet. Should be on tomorrow’s House of Commons order paper.

 

[theblackwatch]

Talking of beer, it says pubs can do a takeaway service but not for alcohol. Why??

This is a shame for a number of businesses. A local pub that I frequent spent the last lockdown serving takeaway pizzas (which they normally sell in the pub, and I have to say are rather nice!) along with bottled/canned beer. Another was doing takeout beers in 2/4 pint cartons to take home. Both have been stopped, I suspect due to those pubs which "abused" the position by serving beer in plastic glasses to drink outside the pub. I have, however, contacted my local MP about it and pointed out that it is a further restriction on an already struggling sector of the economy.

The last sentence poses another question. Has anyone else bothered to contact their MP about their concerns or to give their views? Or do others on here just prefer to express their concerns on a railway forum?

 

[trebor79]

The last sentence poses another question. Has anyone else bothered to contact their MP about their concerns or to give their views? Or do others on here just prefer to express their concerns on a railway forum?

Yes, months ago. Didn't get any response other than an auto reply saying he's terribly busy but light deign to read it in the next few weeks. Useless George Freeman, clearly in a very safe seat, but he won't be getting my vote ever again.

 

[SJN]

Kings College have tweeted that their Zoe app has shown a drop in the R rate to 1 in England, Scotland & Wales leading to some putting pressure on Boris to pause the lockdown.

 

[trebor79]

He should pause, cases have clearly flatlined and so has the number of patients in hospital. It's about to head downwards, the regional approach has been very effective.

 

[brad465]

The Covid ZOE study in recent days has shown a distinct slowing down in the number of active symptomatic infections (602,857 their latest estimate). 2 weeks ago this was going up by around 18,000 per day, the last few days have been 7,000-10,000 per day.

Latest Daily UK COVID-19 Data: Vaccines, Cases, Trends | ZOE

COVID infection & vaccination rates in the UK today, based on public data and reports from millions of users of the ZOE Health Study app

covid.joinzoe.com

While we need to see how the trend progresses further, this is of course before lockdown has even started, suggesting existing measures are enough. This could also be the effects of half term, but whatever the case it could prove something is flawed about the planned lockdown, whether locking down while schools stay open is the wrong approach, or the whole thing in general is wrong.

The ONS data is only reported weekly and further behind, but even that was showing a slowdown, which will make this Friday's next release for last week's data interesting.

 

[Bikeman78]

The last sentence poses another question. Has anyone else bothered to contact their MP about their concerns or to give their views? Or do others on here just prefer to express their concerns on a railway forum?

My MP has replied to a letter I sent in February (nothing to do with Covid) let alone the more recent email I sent a few weeks ago. I might as well have posted the letter down the drain outside the house.

 

[SJN]

I don’t think the tier system was given long enough. It’s going to take at least 2 weeks to see a difference which would be this week. All the arguing about which tiers to go in didn’t help either. We’ll see what the figures are like for the rest of the week.

 

[ainsworth74]

The last sentence poses another question. Has anyone else bothered to contact their MP about their concerns or to give their views? Or do others on here just prefer to express their concerns on a railway forum?

No point. My MP is lock step behind Boris and doesn't seem to matter what happens he'll back the leader (so far I've written to express my concerns about Cummings eye test and the Internal Market bill "limited and specific" law breaking). I assume as he's young and took over a Red Wall seat that he's hoping he'll be able to have a long career in the party if he plays his cards right now and doesn't cause issues even if he ends up losing his seat next time out.

 

[trainophile]

My experience is that many may not have opened after round 1, sadly. Over the last two weekends, I have been to Saltaire where the facilities in the park were in the cafe and signed out of use and the public toilets up the road were also out of use. Ended up walking to Shipley Asda!

Likewise last weekend I was at Lister Park near Bradford and they were shut, too. Thankfully they were working on the 333 we caught later (which in of itself is something of a rarity!)

Worcester Foregate Street toilets still shut, with a notice at the foot of the stairs saying "you can use the facilities on your train". All well and good except some WMR-GWR connections are 40 minutes there, and if you don't know the station ones are closed you may not bother to go on the train before alighting. Really not good enough. Even if they just had the disabled one available, with the key obtained from the ticket desk, it would be something. You would think they didn't want people to travel... oh wait .

 

[Solent&Wessex]

If nothing else, the downturn in the rate of increase shown by ZOE and no doubt others, and the reports that the graphs and 4000 deaths per day justification used on Saturday were out of date, might just give hope that the 4 week lockdown will actually end on time.

 

[matt]

The last sentence poses another question. Has anyone else bothered to contact their MP about their concerns or to give their views? Or do others on here just prefer to express their concerns on a railway forum?

I haven't but I suspect others has as it was my MP who raised the issue in Parliament yesterday.

 

[185143]

I'd also hope not. In contrast to March's lockdown, we now know that the main form of transmission is indoor, droplet based, and that the risk of infecton in short (<15 minute) periods of shared space is very minimal. 'Surface' transmission is not non-existent, but it is much less of a factor than initially expected.

More broadly, the lockdown laws this time round are much clearer that social interaciton in public spaces, primarily for exercise, is allowed. Playparks are remaining open. Takeaways are remaining open. I'd hope that eg National Trust parkland, nature reserves, country parks, city parks, are kept open in too. Having public toilets open facilitates access to these spaces at a minimal risk.

Sadly I doubt it.

I was over in Northern Ireland at the start of their 2 week "Circuit Breaker". I went to the Giant's Causeway on the Sunday afternoon and it was much busier than I had expected, clearly people taking advantage of the very pleasant weather. The visitor centre was completely shut, as were both the hotel and the pub. No facilities were open or available whatsoever, including the toilets which appeared to normally be accessible without entering the visitor centre. It's a National Trust property so I'd fully expect the same nonsense to be replicated over here sadly.

As an aside, it's well worth a visit! A truly fascinating place to go.

 

[ainsworth74]

I still think it's wrong to focus on the number of cases. As far as I can tell the reason that they panicked their way into another lockdown was due to the numbers coming out of hospitals and the projection that by Christmas the NHS would be overwhelmed. Unless those figures start to look better they ain't pausing or cancelling lockdown. I think I said previously it seems to me that cases could be running at a 1,000 a day and we'd still be locked down on the back of the hospital and NHS capacity figures.