Lockdown in England from Thursday 5 November until Wednesday 2 December

[sjpowermac]

I don't understand how we ever expected to "control" a virus in schools. As I've said repeatedly, if colds can spread, so can Covid.

I didn’t say that I believed a virus could be controlled in schools. I’m not sure of the point you are making.

 

[Trackman]

It says you should, not you must, avoid non-essential journeys by public transport. It gives examples of what are classed as essential journeys but says essential travel includes but is not limited to these.

It’s all a bit vague at the moment with the restrictions on leaving your own home, we’ll have to wait for the detailed guidance.

• shopping for basic necessities, for example food and medicine, which should be as infrequent as possible

Does this mean I cannot buy a 4 pack of beer and a newspaper from the local shop?
It also mentions non-essential retail can stay open but only for delivery and click and collect, so I guess I’ll have to do it that way!!
Talking of beer, it says pubs can do a takeaway service but not for alcohol. Why??

 

[Darandio]

Does this mean I cannot buy a 4 pack of beer and a newspaper from the local shop?

Of course you can. Even during the last lockdown I still saw the same stream of people going to the shop daily for their newspaper, nothing stopping you picking up a few beers as you do so.

 

[Bikeman78]

I didn’t say that I believed a virus could be controlled in schools. I’m not sure of the point you are making.

That the teachers are running themselves ragged trying to achieve the impossible?

 

[sjpowermac]

That the teachers are running themselves ragged trying to achieve the impossible?

Thanks for clarifying. Yes, I agree with that.

 

[High Dyke]

But how many people are actually going to bother at this time of year? Plus it's dark in the evenings now.

And what's wrong with a walk in the rain? It's how you prepare that is essential. A short walk can make all the difference.

 

[BJames]

We’d better all hope that the hospitals don’t fill up then. Because if they’re all full with medics working flat out to stay on top of Covid related cases, the case for continued lockdown will be a whole lot stronger than you or I would want it to be.

I’d love to meet family over Christmas, but playing roulette over whether the presents will include a family dose of Covid sure takes the gloss off for me.

Even some of the biggest lockdown activists will be tempted to break lockdown if it is still in place by Christmas. I shall be travelling home at Christmas whether or not lockdown is still in place.

Elsewhere I am very unsurprised Gove said this morning it might need to be extended. This is the usual government attitude of claiming that it is definitely time-limited but then that it hasn't done enough and therefore must continue anyway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Nov 2020 ==

Michael Gove has just come on Sky News to say that the lockdown could be extended. This gives me cause for optimism, because the opposite of what Gove says normally happens.

Read this after what I wrote but this is actually a good point

 

[TheSel]

Does this mean I cannot buy a 4 pack of beer and a newspaper from the local shop?
It also mentions non-essential retail can stay open but only for delivery and click and collect...

Define "essential".

Would you survive without your beer and newspaper?

 

[35B]

Even some of the biggest lockdown activists will be tempted to break lockdown if it is still in place by Christmas. I shall be travelling home at Christmas whether or not lockdown is still in place.

Elsewhere I am very unsurprised Gove said this morning it might need to be extended. This is the usual government attitude of claiming that it is definitely time-limited but then that it hasn't done enough and therefore must continue anyway.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Nov 2020 ==


Read this after what I wrote but this is actually a good point

The late great Bernard Levin used to write of the fallacy of the altered perspective when writing about evolving responses to ethical issues. Whatever you, I or anyone else think now about lockdown over Christmas, those views will evolve as the hospital case load changes between now and Christmas. If we do end up with an overloaded health service, then the contrast between "my" right to celebrate Christmas as I choose, and the impact of more social contacts that will further increase that case load, will be stark.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Define "essential".

Would you survive without your beer and newspaper?

What’s interesting is that alcohol is an addictive substance, same as tobacco, hence no Government will try and make it non-essential. During a lockdown it is potentially even more important.

 

[35B]

It’s all a bit vague at the moment with the restrictions on leaving your own home, we’ll have to wait for the detailed guidance.

Does this mean I cannot buy a 4 pack of beer and a newspaper from the local shop?
It also mentions non-essential retail can stay open but only for delivery and click and collect, so I guess I’ll have to do it that way!!
Talking of beer, it says pubs can do a takeaway service but not for alcohol. Why??

"Essential" retailers are those whose services are classified as essential; the government has stated that it will not stop them selling "non essential" goods in the way that the Welsh government has.

As for takeaway alcohol, that option will have disappeared with the abuse of the regulations in the spring, where people were buying "takeaway" pints, and then standing round the pub to drink them. I don't believe those restrictions will apply to the sale of sealed containers of alcohol, obviously depending on whether the pub will be classified as "essential" or not. Though, as off licenses were before, my bet is that they will again.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Nov 2020 ==

What’s interesting is that alcohol is an addictive substance, same as tobacco, hence no Government will try and make it non-essential. During a lockdown it is potentially even more important.

Indeed - look at the consequences in South Africa where they have tried that.

 

[Esker-pades]

Not wishing to defend our Government, but France, Spain etc seem to be in a similar position.

In terms of structure of society, I'm generally sceptical that other western countries operate in a massively different way. Except perhaps a different proportion of multi-generational households.

I wonder how Sweden has dealt with school and university reopenings, bearing in mind that that seems to have significantly increased the problems here.

It definitely would have been better to have kept university on line. Not what uni's all about, but at least the students would have still been able to socialise and have the support of their old school friends.

Yes and no.

France and Spain are in positions where their geography makes virus importation pretty difficult. France has land borders with 6 countries, for example. The UK is an island, so should be able to more effectively supress viral importation. See New Zealand and Australia for better examples.

It is true that Europe, as a whole, has dealt with the virus pretty badly. The UK does sit at the top of tables for both deaths and economic damage though.

Sweden has kept education open, but with additional rules. Schools have been closed where an outbreak has occurred. I'm not as clued up on universities.

I would imagine that significant internal migration due to university years starting will have been responsible for some of the increase in cases. But, other candidates are also out there. Eat Out to Help Out, and the apparent shock of the head of Test & Trace Dido Harding that people going back to school would mean more tests being requested.

I cannot properly answer your guess at the differences of societal structure in different Western European countries.

 

[packermac]

Does that include the second lockdown in Victoria?

And remember that is was with what was a closed border. It would appear from the "I must have my foreign summer holiday" ethos that would have been unacceptable to the UK and much of Europe.
Even now I believe any airline flying to Australia is only allowed to fly in 500 passengers a week (includes returning nationals) and they have to quarantine on arrival.
Plus of course the Victoria "6 week lock down" lasted over twice that time.

 

[TheSel]

What’s interesting is that alcohol is an addictive substance, same as tobacco, hence no Government will try and make it non-essential. During a lockdown it is potentially even more important.

That's a fascinating point. If you argue that alcohol is essential because it's addictive, is it therefore by definition not essential to someone who's never had any. Which logically means that no-one should be allowed to purchase it FOR THE FIRST TIME during lockdown. Good luck enforcing that one!

 

[Reliablebeam]

I've not slept well these past few days, reading the papers and twitter late into the night and starting again early in the morning. I've not heard from my employer what they intend to do yet, we are experimental scientists but they have usually followed the government line very closely as we are effectively a part of BEIS, so I suspect it's back to working at home full time. Office staff were already told, back in September, that they would probably not be back until March next year. My spider senses are tingling a bit - the mathematical modelers who advise government were clearly very, very cross their ideas weren't taken up earlier this month, so I find it a bit suspicious they suddenly produce a load of non-peer reviewed apocalyptic forecasts, but we are where we are.

I have a horrible feeling this 'lockdown' won't deliver the outcome our leaders want:

1. The kids are (rightly) still in school and they seem to want university to continue - this will in effect 'link' many households
2. Many more companies (and possibly retailers) might try and perform mental gymnastics to justify staying open
3. Compliance. Will be interested to see what happens here - I wonder how long before Hancock is on the telly making petulant threats?

Gove's comments this morning don't fill me with confidence, and I notice rent-a-gob Jeremy Farrar is also holding court. My feeling is this either gets extended or they do something very sneaky like 'release' the country into Tier 3 restrictions, which I believe Farrar has already suggested.

 

[adc82140]

Couple of quick questions, I can't find anything about this on the gov.uk website (there's a surprise) :

I have a carpet due to be fitted in 16th Nov. Will this be allowed to go ahead?

Can I still have the cleaner round to the house?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Couple of quick questions, I can't find anything about this on the gov.uk website (there's a surprise) :

I have a carpet due to be fitted in 16th Nov. Will this be allowed to go ahead?

Can I still have the cleaner round to the house?

Im going to assume the carpet fitting is allowed, as it’s work that can’t be done from home. And I get the feeling a cleaner is allowed as well?

 

[43066]

Im going to assume the carpet fitting is allowed, as it’s work that can’t be done from home. And I get the feeling a cleaner is allowed as well?

Cleaners were still carrying on during the (stricter) march lockdown. It’s work that can’t be done from home - hence the jokes about “your mum can pop round for a cuppa if you pay her to clean your flat” etc.

 

[MalaiseForever]

Traffic has not reduced much in Cardiff I'm afraid.

traffic hasn’t reduced anywhere now vs pre covid. I was talking about during first lockdown when the traffic levels were 30% of normal.

 

[35B]

Couple of quick questions, I can't find anything about this on the gov.uk website (there's a surprise) :

I have a carpet due to be fitted in 16th Nov. Will this be allowed to go ahead?

Can I still have the cleaner round to the house?

Gov.uk has the guidance, but not the detailed regulations. I’ve similar questions about work scheduled over the next month, and expect to see developments over the next week as the firms involved work out their positions.

 

[duncanp]

In my local church grounds there is a memorial to local men who died in the First and Second World wars.

Since the announcement of the second lockdown, there has been some discussion locally about whether people will be "allowed" to gather at the war memorial at 11am next Sunday (Remembrance Sunday) to observe two minutes silence in memory of those who died during the war.

Excuse me, but since when did we require "permission" to gather at a war memorial on Remembrance Sunday.

I will be there at 11am next Sunday, and if the police want to break up this "gathering" (after having done nothing about Professor Pantsdown and that Scottish MP) then it will show just how low this country has sunk.

 

[DustyBin]

We may have to amend the thread title....

Michael Gove reveals four-week November lockdown could be EXTENDED

The Cabinet Office Minister raised the spectre of a gloomy December with pubs, restaurants and non-essential shops closed if the R rate does not fall enough.

www.dailymail.co.uk

England could spend Christmas under a full lockdown if the four-week November shutdown fails to tackle the second wave of coronavirus sweeping the nation, Michael Gove suggested today.
The Cabinet Office Minister raised the spectre of a gloomy December with pubs, restaurants and non-essential shops closed if the R rate does not fall enough, despite the closure being designed to help save the festive period.

Look out for firm plans being ‘leaked’ in around three weeks time!

 

[adc82140]

I will be there at 11am next Sunday, and if the police want to break up this "gathering" (after having done nothing about Professor Pantsdown and that Scottish MP) then it will show just how low this country has sunk.

The Police are careful to pick their battles. I was at the homecoming of four local firefighters who had done a charity run in full kit last week. We all stood outside their fire station to cheer them back. Everyone was sensible, household groups stayed at least 2m apart, but at a guess I'd say there were about 80 people there. Theoretically illegal, but the local plod turned a blind eye.

 

[RailExplorer]

Have they? I'd suggest, based on this chart, Finland has got it right and that the government will reimpose the 14 day quarantine for arrivals from Sweden next week due to their accelerating infection rate.

https://twitter.com/PPaulCharles/status/1322510512077344768/photo/1

As a Finn myself, they have done nothing special. I was there in May and have family in finland including a teacher. No checks on arrival (only citizens were allowed to enter though). Quarantine for 14 days but you could go to work and do essential activities. There were no social distancing signs, no one socially distanced either - well Finns are naturally distant anyway. For some reason they just haven’t been affected that badly or perhaps they just record figures differently. They do get a lot of Japanese visitors so perhaps there was already a baseline immunity level in society from previous coronavirus type viruses. Schools are all normal now too.

In recent weeks though my relatives have all started to wear masks, something which was none existent in the first wave. My grandad for example wears the same mask all week now, potentially making the spread worse.

 

[philosopher]

Not wishing to defend our Government, but France, Spain etc seem to be in a similar position.

In terms of structure of society, I'm generally sceptical that other western countries operate in a massively different way. Except perhaps a different proportion of multi-generational households.

I wonder how Sweden has dealt with school and university reopenings, bearing in mind that that seems to have significantly increased the problems here.

It definitely would have been better to have kept university on line. Not what uni's all about, but at least the students would have still been able to socialise and have the support of their old school friends.

Personally, I think there are two suitable ways to deal with the pandemic, the approach Sweden took or the approach taken by South Korea. South Korea’s approach of aggressive testing and tracing seems to worked very well. But it does require a country to have a very good testing and tracing infrastructure in place before the pandemic. This was clearly not case for the UK or indeed it seems most other European countries.

That leaves Sweden’s approach. Sweden’s approach seems to be a good compromise between trying to control the virus spread and preserving some degree of normality. Yes they did have some restrictions such as universities being closed in the Spring, working from home and a 50 person limit of gatherings, but the restrictions were considerably less than what other European countries had in the Spring or are introducing now.

 

[DustyBin]

Personally, I think there are two suitable ways to deal with the pandemic, the approach Sweden took or the approach taken by South Korea. South Korea’s approach of aggressive testing and tracing seems to worked very well. But it does require a country to have a very good testing and tracing infrastructure in place before the pandemic. This was clearly not case for the UK or indeed it seems most other European countries.

That leaves Sweden’s approach. Sweden’s approach seems to be a good compromise between trying to control the virus spread and preserving some degree of normality. Yes they did have some restrictions such as universities being closed in the Spring, working from home and a 50 person limit of gatherings, but the restrictions were considerably less than what other European countries had in the Spring or are introducing now.

In regard to South Korea, I posted a graph a week or so ago which compared the number of tests being carried out there with the number here in the UK. They are testing a fraction of the number of people we are which may explain why they aren’t seeing as many infections (the same applies to Japan incidentally).

 

[adc82140]

On a slightly positive note it seems that Homebase and B&Q are designated essential retailers this time and won't be closing.

 

[ChrisC]

In my local church grounds there is a memorial to local men who died in the First and Second World wars.

Since the announcement of the second lockdown, there has been some discussion locally about whether people will be "allowed" to gather at the war memorial at 11am next Sunday (Remembrance Sunday) to observe two minutes silence in memory of those who died during the war.

Excuse me, but since when did we require "permission" to gather at a war memorial on Remembrance Sunday.

I will be there at 11am next Sunday, and if the police want to break up this "gathering" (after having done nothing about Professor Pantsdown and that Scottish MP) then it will show just how low this country has sunk.

It might not be too difficult with your local war memorial being positioned within the church grounds. Our war memorial, like in many towns and villages is inside the church building.

When it was announced in church this morning that the church has to close for public worship during the lockdown, many of our people, especially the elderly, were quite distressed about next Sunday being Remembrance Sunday and there could be no service containing an organised public act of remembrance at the memorial. Fortunately, it seems that this time around the building can at least be opened for private prayer and not completely closed and locked as in the last lockdown. It is therefore planned to open the building for private prayer for an hour next Sunday morning.

The church does currently have regular a Wednesday morning service and this coming Wednesday, the day before lockdown, it is now planned to have an Act of Remembrance and 2 minutes silence included within this service.

 

[SuspectUsual]

It really is a sad state of affairs when a cabinet minister is doing the rounds of the news tv stations basically using the threat of an even worse lockdown to drive compliance with the one they’ve just announced. The exact opposite of winning the hearts and minds

 

[SS4]

It’s all a bit vague at the moment with the restrictions on leaving your own home, we’ll have to wait for the detailed guidance.

Does this mean I cannot buy a 4 pack of beer and a newspaper from the local shop?
It also mentions non-essential retail can stay open but only for delivery and click and collect, so I guess I’ll have to do it that way!!
Talking of beer, it says pubs can do a takeaway service but not for alcohol. Why??

Probably some crappy attempt to impose their values on people under the guise of social responsibility and the Dickensian view that alcohol and pubs are bad

I noticed how the government is ok to order a national lockdown in England as soon as they started receiving challenges from local authorities.It's as though they don't want people to think that there are alternatives and that local leaders may know better than a Whitehall that has all but ignored anything between Watford and the Scottish border for a long time. They want to try and browbeat the population into acquiescing with them instead of thinking for themselves - hence the scare tactic of extending lockdown