Lockdown in England from Thursday 5 November until Wednesday 2 December

[WatcherZero]

The current furlough scheme due to cease tonight has been extended to early December. This is not much help to people who lost their jobs from July onwards from companies who would have had to start to pay part of their salaries.

Its not the current furlough scheme being extended where the payments were being gradually shifted from the government to companies, the governments doing it under the original furlough scheme arrangement where it paid all the salaried money.

Timing is indeed terrible, I know the end of Furlough letters were posted out at work on Thursday/Friday to coincide with today.

 

[DB]

Well, if it gets enacted as "should" it will be unenforceable - someone would be entirely within their rights to say that they have decided not to follow this recommendation and will be travelling by train for a non-essential purpose.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Oct 2020 ==

Am I right in remembering that during the first lockdown everyone over 70 were considered vulnerable people? This time it appears that everyone who is aged 60 or over (regardless of medical conditions) are considered clinically vulnerable.

Which is nonsense - those at risk are actually more clearly identified now than they were in March, so the group ought to be smaller, not larger than last time.

 

[WatcherZero]

Its unlikely Labour would vote against, theyve been calling for a full national lockdown for several weeks, this is the Conservatives coming round to Labours policy.

 

[yorksrob]

Neither Labour nor the Tories will ever be getting my vote again.

 

[WatcherZero]

Well, if it gets enacted as "should" it will be unenforceable - someone would be entirely within their rights to say that they have decided not to follow this recommendation and will be travelling by train for a non-essential purpose.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Oct 2020 ==



Which is nonsense - those at risk are actually more clearly identified now than they were in March, so the group ought to be smaller, not larger than last time.

The government cocked up the shielding list first time round, it was originally like 2m but because they did it directly rather than through doctors the actual amount that needed to shield due to medical condition was eventually upped to something like 5m.

 

[Richard Scott]

I really do wish politicians would get a pair and stop pandering to social media and these so called medical experts. This will just about kill some businesses off, people's livelihoods going down the pan, mental be wellbeing being hit even further. My 76 year old mother is going mad over this, she's totally fed up with it all as are her friends. I cannot believe there are many people who are actually supporting these measures. I know some poll will say otherwise but can get the answers you want by asking the right questions.

 

[ChrisC]

We are told to stay at home. This means you must not leave or be outside of your home except for specific purposes. One of these specific purposes listed is to visit members of your support bubble or provide care for vulnerable people, or as a volunteer.

There have been already been questions about forming support bubbles with people who live some distance away and travelling to meet or even stay overnight with them.
I was wondering whether the distance issue is also an issue with providing care for vulnerable people. During the first lockdown my sister who lives about 40 miles away did not visit my mother who is 85 and has dementia. I live much closer and had my mother living we me but found it very stressful to care for her single handed. This time, once a week, I intend to drive my mother over to my sisters house and my sister intends to visit us here to help with caring issues that I can no longer do myself. I may even take my mother over for her to stay a few nights to give me some respite. We didn’t do any of this last time but I am not prepared or able to care single handed a second time.

 

[ABB125]

I really do wish politicians would get a pair and stop pandering to social media and these so called medical experts. This will just about kill some businesses off, people's livelihoods going down the pan, mental be wellbeing being hit even further. My 76 year old mother is going mad over this, she's totally fed up with it all as are her friends. I cannot believe there are many people who are actually supporting these measures. I know some poll will say otherwise but can get the answers you want by asking the right questions.

Indeed - plenty of people I know are not in favour of another lockdown (or at least, aren't supportive of one). My grandparents don't seem to be particularly fussed by the presence of the virus, but they are being a bit more cautious in some circumstances. (Having said that, my grandma was still going to the local car boot sale every weekend over the summer, which perhaps wasn't the wisest id)ea for a 77-year-old!)

On a separate note, tonight (Halloween) there seems to be a lot more "partying" going on at the university accommodation village where I live: I've seen one outdoor group of more than six, definitely not all from the same flat, there are plenty of "kitchen parties" going on (no doubt with people from more than one flat present), and judging by the sounds I could hear when I went on my late night walk a few minutes ago, at least one more large outdoor gathering. Therefore I'm not surprised by the calls for schools and universities to be shut, as to a certain extent they are justified.

 

[55002]

We are told to stay at home. This means you must not leave or be outside of your home except for specific purposes. One of these specific purposes listed is to visit members of your support bubble or provide care for vulnerable people, or as a volunteer.

There have been already been questions about forming support bubbles with people who live some distance away and travelling to meet or even stay overnight with them.
I was wondering whether the distance issue is also an issue with providing care for vulnerable people. During the first lockdown my sister who lives about 40 miles away did not visit my mother who is 85 and has dementia. I live much closer and had my mother living we me but found it very stressful to care for her single handed. This time, once a week, I intend to drive my mother over to my sisters house and my sister intends to visit us here to help with caring issues that I can no longer do myself. I may even take my mother over for her to stay a few nights to give me some respite. We didn’t do any of this last time but I am not prepared or able to care single handed a second time.

just use your own common sense, stay away from others and do what’s right for your family. In other words take her to your sister once a week ..I would make sure all the family know the plans in advance and agree..

 

[Class 33]

I really can't believe we're back to this "Stay at Home. Protect the NHS. Save Lives." all over again, some 7 months after it originally started! Get ready for these ads airing on the TV and radio countless times per day all over again! Drove me absolutely mad the first time around. Talk about deja vu! It's back to the bad ol' days all over again. Incredibly frustrating to say the least.

Also assuming this lockdown is actually eased on 2nd December and not extended again. Does this mean that the lockdown will be eased in a similar schedule to the first lockdown? If so, non-essential shops won't be allowed to reopen till late December/early January and pubs/cafes/restaurants won't be allowed to reopen until late January/early February!! And gyms/leisure centres, etc won't be allowed to reopen until late February/early March!!! Or will it be a case of come 2nd December when they hopefully end this lockdown, all these venues will be allowed to reopen again immediately?

But do you think this lockdown will actually end on 2nd December? Or do you think they'll go and extend it again for another 3 or 4 weeks, like was the case with the first lockdown? In fact the original phase of the first lockdown lasted a very long 7 weeks. I really hope that won't be the case this time.

 

[37424]

Well, if it gets enacted as "should" it will be unenforceable - someone would be entirely within their rights to say that they have decided not to follow this recommendation and will be travelling by train for a non-essential purpose.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Oct 2020 ==



Which is nonsense - those at risk are actually more clearly identified now than they were in March, so the group ought to be smaller, not larger than last time.

However the advice doesn't appear to be exactly the same as last time, they are not asking people to shield in the same way just minimise contact where possible. The extremely vulnerable group are being asked not to go to work if they carn't work from home but even this group which I am in is not being told to stay at home all the time like last time.

 

[Jamesrob637]

I really can't believe we're back to this "Stay at Home. Protect the NHS. Save Lives." all over again, some 7 months after it originally started! Get ready for these ads airing on the TV and radio countless times per day all over again! Drove me absolutely mad the first time around. Talk about deja vu! It's back to the bad ol' days all over again. Incredibly frustrating to say the least.

Also assuming this lockdown is actually eased on 2nd December and not extended again. Does this mean that the lockdown will be eased in a similar schedule to the first lockdown? If so, non-essential shops won't be allowed to reopen till late December/early January and pubs/cafes/restaurants won't be allowed to reopen until late January/early February!! And gyms/leisure centres, etc won't be allowed to reopen until late February/early March!!! Or will it be a case of come 2nd December when they hopefully end this lockdown, all these venues will be allowed to reopen again?

But do you think this lockdown will actually end on 2nd December? Or do you think they'll go and extend it again for another 3 or 4 weeks, like was the case with the first lockdown? In fact the original phase of the first lockdown lasted a very long 7 weeks. I really hope that won't be the case this time.

Everything will reopen on the 2nd of December in tiers status if all goes well.

 

[DB]

Everything will reopen on the 2nd of December in tiers status if all goes well.

You actually trust politicians? This lot specialise in last minute knee-jerk reactions.

 

[Yew]

I've been meaning to ask some of my pro-lockdown friends if this has persuaded them that suppression can't work.

 

[alex397]

As much as I dislike the Tories with a absolute passion, it feels inevitable that this was going to happen, so I don’t really blame Johnson for doing this. Other European countries are now going in to lockdown again as well, including Germany which has done a lot better, generally speaking, than us.

Personally I’m very concerned about the economical and emotional effects of this, particularly during winter.

 

[Class 33]

Everything will reopen on the 2nd of December in tiers status if all goes well.

Well that's something then. Going to say, otherwise it will take months for all these venues to be allowed to reopen if it followed a similar schedule to the first lockdown. Let's just hope this lockdown does actually end on 2nd December and they don't go and extend it again though.

But I think even with this 4 week lockdown, it will still sadly finish off many pubs/bars, restaurants, small retailers, etc across the country. Many won't be able to survive having to temporarily close yet again.

 

[HSTEd]

Everything will reopen on the 2nd of December in tiers status if all goes well.

"if all goes well"

Boris, Vallance and Whitty will just move the goalposts to demand the lockdown continue longer.

 

[Jamesrob637]

"if all goes well"

Boris, Vallance and Whitty will just move the goalposts to demand the lockdown continue longer.

When hospitality closed on the 20th of March, which was announced just one day in advance, how long did the Three Musketeers say it would take?

 

[HSTEd]

When hospitality closed on the 20th of March, which was announced just one day in advance, how long did the Three Musketeers say it would take?

Three weeks of lockdown and normality by winter.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

As much as I dislike the Tories with a absolute passion, it feels inevitable that this was going to happen, so I don’t really blame Johnson for doing this. Other European countries are now going in to lockdown again as well, including Germany which has done a lot better, generally speaking, than us.

Personally I’m very concerned about the economical and emotional effects of this, particularly during winter.

It’s a symptom of the disease known as ‘herd stupidity’, where one country decides to try again something that didn’t work the first time, and other countries - in order to be seen as doing something - slavishly copy them

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 1 Nov 2020 ==

Three weeks of lockdown and normality by winter.

To be fair to them, they didn’t state which winter...

 

[GRALISTAIR]

If he has any sense he will announce on 1st January that having got brexit done he is resigning to spend more time with his new baby etc and to pass onto a leader that can unify the country post brexit. It would then take until April for a new leader to be elected and take office. By April the covid situation should be calming down as weather improves. It also means ditching a toxic figure in Scotland prior to Scottish Parliament elections in May. An opinion poll his week showed 58% support for SNP and that 79% of undecided Scottish voters did not want Boris as PM. By contrast Rishi Sunak had a rating of + 30% which is really good for a politician (I don't know the exact figures but thats approximately twice as many undecided Scottish voters like Sunak than dislike him).

Take that to the bank

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Everything will reopen on the 2nd of December in tiers status if all goes well.

We have no guarantee that the tiers on 2nd December will be the same as those applying until Wednesday night this week. An area currently in Tier One might well find it is in Tier 2 at that point, and a Tier 2 area might well find itself in Tier 3...

 

[Ianigsy]

It’s a symptom of the disease known as ‘herd stupidity’, where one country decides to try again something that didn’t work the first time, and other countries - in order to be seen as doing something - slavishly copy them

Agreed, but human psychology is such that it’s better to be seen to have tried and failed than done nothing, even if the outcome is the same or worse. Any leader who came out and said “We’ve tried everything but there’s nothing left so you’re on your own” would be vilified.

 

[infobleep]

I'll try and explain in more detail; lockdowns might look good on the numbers immediately afterwards, but what really matters is if they do any good in the long run.

It's not a great analogy, but imagine an F1 race, one competitor can be ahead because another is in the pits, but if they're going to be 2 seconds a lap faster on fresh tires, then they're not going to be ahead at the finish line.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 31 Oct 2020 ==

I agree it is about the long term but we also need to see what harm a lockdown does in the long term vers having a lockdown to help the long term?

Its like someone starting an F1 race and being way ahead. Then suddenly their car fails and they are out. Hence you need to look at everything and see both sides.

 

[DB]

Agreed, but human psychology is such that it’s better to be seen to have tried and failed than done nothing, even if the outcome is the same or worse. Any leader who came out and said “We’ve tried everything but there’s nothing left so you’re on your own” would be vilified.

They could try something vaguely sensible, such as targeted measures to help those particularly at risk. E.g. providing medical grade PPE and training in its use, guaranteed home delivery slots, etc.

 

[david1212]

This will hit high street and out of town retail very very hard while giving Amazon, eBay sellers etc a massive boost. Given the delays in reopenings so far people are not going to trust shops opening on 3rd December. They are not going to want to risk spending hours queuing in typical December weather either. Unless I've missed it nothing stated yet about allowing supermarkets only to sell food and essential items i.e. not clothes, toys, gift items etc. If as before stores that can open will be allowed to sell everything they stock a boost for them too but at the expense of online sellers.

Presuming come 3rd December everywhere drops to the current Tier 3 or lower so all retail is permitted to reopen how many shops will do so with a view to clearing their stock over the next month or so then shutting the doors for good ? January - March is the low time for non-essential retail at the best of times as many are still paying for Christmas while the luckier ones are saving for holidays.

A huge hit to hospitality too. Without this trade in the run up to the end of the year was already going to be far less than previous years. Again come January how many will shut the doors for good ?

While no option but to extend the current furlough scheme for a month come January how many more will be joining the unemployed list ?

 

[w1bbl3]

This will hit high street and out of town retail very very hard while giving Amazon, eBay sellers etc a massive boost. Given the delays in reopenings so far people are not going to trust shops opening on 3rd December. They are not going to want to risk spending hours queuing in typical December weather either. Unless I've missed it nothing stated yet about allowing supermarkets only to sell food and essential items i.e. not clothes, toys, gift items etc. If as before stores that can open will be allowed to sell everything they stock a boost for them too but at the expense of online sellers.

Presuming come 3rd December everywhere drops to the current Tier 3 or lower so all retail is permitted to reopen how many shops will do so with a view to clearing their stock over the next month or so then shutting the doors for good ? January - March is the low time for non-essential retail at the best of times as many are still paying for Christmas while the luckier ones are saving for holidays.

A huge hit to hospitality too. Without this trade in the run up to the end of the year was already going to be far less than previous years. Again come January how many will shut the doors for good ?

While no option but to extend the current furlough scheme for a month come January how many more will be joining the unemployed list ?

Personally I'd expect non essential retailers to start Christmas sales immediately with a view to get the Christmas stock shifted, betting on a reopening in December with only 20 days to shift stock that would normally be sold over 50 days is not a good plan.

The Christmas period and the lack of economic activity outside of retail and hospitality which are restricted by the tiering anyway is actually a good time economically for wider restrictions. You know closing schools a few days early and reopening a few days later with stricter WfH directive including factories and construction would reduce mobility significantly and in theory infections outside of your household. Equally on Dec 3rd moving all english regions to tier 3 would in effect extend the restrictions, as a non essential retailer are you really going to reopen when the customers are likely to stay away?

 

[bramling]

Personally I'd expect non essential retailers to start Christmas sales immediately with a view to get the Christmas stock shifted, betting on a reopening in December with only 20 days to shift stock that would normally be sold over 50 days is not a good plan.

The Christmas period and the lack of economic activity outside of retail and hospitality which are restricted by the tiering anyway is actually a good time economically for wider restrictions. You know closing schools a few days early and reopening a few days later with stricter WfH directive including factories and construction would reduce mobility significantly and in theory infections outside of your household. Equally on Dec 3rd moving all english regions to tier 3 would in effect extend the restrictions, as a non essential retailer are you really going to reopen when the customers are likely to stay away?

It's a complete mess, as we will now see the Christmas shopping period compressed into three weeks, so can look forward to madness in the shops. Those retailers who can do a decent online offering in the meantime are perhaps in the best position.

Meanwhile we now have teaching unions agitating. What's the betting we end up with schools being closed after all?

 

[ABB125]

It's a complete mess, as we will now see the Christmas shopping period compressed into three weeks, so can look forward to madness in the shops. Those retailers who can do a decent online offering in the meantime are perhaps in the best position.

Meanwhile we now have teaching unions agitating. What's the betting we end up with schools being closed after all?

I think schools are likely to stay open, despite the unions' wishes to be paid in full for doing very little (or even nothing), simply because I think the vast majority of the population would prefer them to stay open.

 

[bramling]

I think schools are likely to stay open, despite the unions' wishes to be paid in full for doing very little (or even nothing), simply because I think the vast majority of the population would prefer them to stay open.

I really hope so. There's lots of good reasons to keep the schools open.