Trivia: Stations with a very unbalanced calling pattern in one direction

[Hadders]

Stevenage to London fast

Approximately 20 and 50 past the hour northbound, and something like **59 and **04 southbound

With fast trains every 15 minutes all day , plus 2tph LNER for much of the day and additional peak extras (which are non-stop) I really don't think the service between Stevenage and London qualifies as unbalanced.

You’re very much mistaken if you think I’ll sit on one of those all the way

All the way between Stevenage and London takes 24 minutes, hardly a hardship! The seats on the class 700 aren't great, but the same can be said about the Azumas. 1st class 'upgrades' are of course available on the 700s.

The service is uneven based on the fact that a lot of people purchase LNER-only tickets

It is ridiculous to have LNER only tickets between Stevenage and London and they really should be withdrawn. I strongly suspect many people purchase them unwittingly and then use them on GTR. The fact that the TVMs offer the two route options as 'LNER only' and '.' really doesn't help and I'm surprised GTR haven't done something to modify their TVMs.

 

[Statto]

Before the timetable recast a couple of years ago, Newton Le Willows was a weird one, westbound trains would be xx12 stopper to Llandudno, xx17 fast to Liverpool Lime Street, & xx23 stopper to Liverpool Lime Street, then nothing for the next 50 minutes, forgotten what eastbound times were, but think they were 3tph all around xx30.

 

[NSE]

Slightly different, but I'll mention Whitton station. I commute daily from there and its the pinch point where the slows are caught up by the fasts heading away from London and the fasts are right ahead of the slows heading to London. I totally understand why it happens, as they head to London they space out due to the different calling patterns and vice a versa away from London. It effectively means you have a half hourly service as your London trains depart at xx:20/50 and xx:23/53. The down trains are xx:20/50 and xx:25/55. A five minute flurry of activity before 25 minutes of nothing. I remember when I looked up the commute and it said 4tph. Happy Days I thought! Until I looked a bit closer at the timetable haha

 

[Ianno87]

The service is uneven based on the fact that a lot of people purchase LNER-only tickets

Although you wouldn't if you had a 50 minute wait until the next LNER service.

 

[backontrack]

You’re very much mistaken if you think I’ll sit on one of those all the way

That's a very privileged outlook. In reality the seats are fine, and Stevenage doesn't have an unbalanced calling pattern in terms of fast services to and from London.

 

[Ianno87]

That's a very privileged outlook. In reality the seats are fine, and Stevenage doesn't have an unbalanced calling pattern in terms of fast services to and from London.

Makes a change from this forum's usual moaning about IET seats...

 

[tbtc]

Why are trains grouped as described? Are there good or dubious reasons? I think some have different stopping patterns, so they arrive at decent intervals at the other end of the line, is that right?

Sometimes it's because services are batched together to accommodate a slow stopper/freight path - e.g. the non-Covid service from Preston to the junction outside Carstairs junction is made up of three passenger services - the "fast London" Avanti, the "via Birmingham" Avanti and the TPE service from Manchester Airport - but these are pathed in a very short window (with the fastest service generally only stopping at Carlisle and the slowest service potentially stopping at Oxenholme/ Penrith/ Carlisle/ Lockerbie, so possibly getting to the junction south of Carstairs some time after the fast Avanti service)... part of this is because of the time difference between the fastest and slowest over a long section of line, but part of it is because any freight on the line is going to struggle up Shap and Beattock, so you need a long gap between passenger services to accommodate it.

Similarly, look at how the fast services are "flighted" from Euston/ Kings Cross etc - you might get three trains running at three minute intervals but then a long gap to accommodate a slower service (although these trains don't all stop at the same station further north, so it's not as obvious to the average passenger).

There have also been examples of services designed to be overtaken - e.g. IIRC the old Alphaline/ Wales & West services from Birmingham/ Cardiff to Pembrokeshire (etc) sat at Swansea for ten/fifteen minutes, so that the Paddington HST could arrive at Swansea and longer distance passengers swap onto the 158 - the same was true of Midland Mainline at Leicester - the hourly Derby Turbostar would arrive five minutes before the hourly Nottingham HST, wait for the HST to arrive/ dwell/ depart and then five minutes later the Turbostar would depart... the same pattern was repeated half an hour later with the Nottingham Turbostar and Sheffield HST - but the stopping pattern of the 100mph Turbostars was Market Harborough/ Kettering/ Corby/ Bedford/ Luton/ Luton Airport Parkway whilst the 125mph HSTs ran non-stop south of Leicester, so the two Nottingham trains per hour arrived/departed St Pancras within a few minutes of each other (and same for the two Derby services) - but the Turbostar services weren't intended for longer distance passengers - the idea was that someone doing Nottingham - Luton or Beeston - London would change at Leicester)

(there's also the problem that some stations only have long distance services, which can be badly co-ordinated because they are tied to bottlenecks elsewhere, but there's not much)

But in the case of East Midlands Parkway, it's partly because the EMR service is roughly speaking a half hourly Sheffield - London and and half hourly Nottingham - London (with one service from each city taking slightly longer than the other service from that city). BUT, to give all of the long distance stops to Nottingham would mean no service from Sheffield/ Derby to the Parkway station, and giving all of the long distance stops to the Sheffield service would mean that the Nottingham service was only an hourly Sprinter on the Ivanhoe stopper (which wouldn't encourage motorists to park there and use the train into Nottingham. So, the "solution" was to stop one Sheffield service and one Nottingham service, which means the "fast" service is roughly a 15/45 split. Frustratingly, the hourly Ivanhoe stopper arrives at roughly the same time too.

 

[TrainTube]

Church Fenton often gets 2 hourly services to York 4 mins apart, leaving at xx45 (ex Hull) and xx49 (ex Blackpool North)

 

[43066]

But in the case of East Midlands Parkway, it's partly because the EMR service is roughly speaking a half hourly Sheffield - London and and half hourly Nottingham - London (with one service from each city taking slightly longer than the other service from that city). BUT, to give all of the long distance stops to Nottingham would mean no service from Sheffield/ Derby to the Parkway station, and giving all of the long distance stops to the Sheffield service would mean that the Nottingham service was only an hourly Sprinter on the Ivanhoe stopper (which wouldn't encourage motorists to park there and use the train into Nottingham. So, the "solution" was to stop one Sheffield service and one Nottingham service, which means the "fast" service is roughly a 15/45 split. Frustratingly, the hourly Ivanhoe stopper arrives at roughly the same time too.

East Midlands Parkway is also something of a white elephant of a station, with relatively little footfall for the facilities provided. Historically a lot of what traffic it did have was generated by part train, part megabus deals when EMR was EMT which (presumably) will no longer continue, even post Covid.

 

[Bletchleyite]

East Midlands Parkway is also something of a white elephant of a station, with relatively little footfall for the facilities provided. Historically a lot of what traffic it did have was generated by part train, part megabus deals when EMR was EMT which (presumably) will no longer continue, even post Covid.

I think it was also meant to ape the very successful Luton Airport Parkway, which it might have had some chance of doing if easyJet hadn't withdrawn from the airport and in doing so plunged it into relative obscurity.

 

[43066]

I think it was also meant to ape the very successful Luton Airport Parkway, which it might have had some chance of doing if easyJet hadn't withdrawn from the airport and in doing so plunged it into relative obscurity.

I think RYR still has a few flights? The airport itself is very obscure, by all accounts, with relatively few passenger flights and a lot of freight movements. No doubt a lot of Nottinghamshire residents will simply stay on the train for the extra hour or so, and head to the far better catered Luton in any case.

Without wishing to offend anyone, I suspect cost conscious Megabus passengers are not going to be the kinds of passengers worth stopping long distance trains for.

 

[tbtc]

East Midlands Parkway is also something of a white elephant of a station, with relatively little footfall for the facilities provided. Historically a lot of what traffic it did have was generated by part train, part megabus deals when EMR was EMT which (presumably) will no longer continue, even post Covid.

My take on the Parkway station is that it'd have been a lot better if it had opened when EMR got their new 810s and introduced a recast timetable - unfortunately it was opened at a time when EMT (as was) were having to run four coach 222s on some of their London services, meaning not much capacity to accomodate/encourage East Midlands Parkway passengers.

If there had been scope to stop four fast services per hour from day one then it'd have been an attractive place for people to drive to and catch a frequent London service, as well as commuters taking regular services into Nottingham/ Derby/ Leicester.

However, if I were a motorist on the M1, I wouldn't feel confident that I'd get through any tailbacks/ roadworks to the station in time for an hourly service, or a potential forty five minutes wait for a London journey!

Given the way that Nottingham has proactively tackled parking (charging for spaces to encourage public transport) and the number of places north of EMP that are convenient for the motorway but lack a regular London train service, I could have seen the Parkway station working well if it had a proper service (note that I'm ignoring any Airport passengers - I've used National Express coaches in the past to get to/from the Airport, which was okay, but I don't think that you could build the entire business case for the station on airport passengers - the "park and ride" passengers are the meat and potatoes, with any airport passengers being the gravy!).

 

[43066]

My take on the Parkway station is that it'd have been a lot better if it had opened when EMR got their new 810s and introduced a recast timetable - unfortunately it was opened at a time when EMT (as was) were having to run four coach 222s on some of their London services, meaning not much capacity to accomodate/encourage East Midlands Parkway passengers.

If there had been scope to stop four fast services per hour from day one then it'd have been an attractive place for people to drive to and catch a frequent London service, as well as commuters taking regular services into Nottingham/ Derby/ Leicester.

However, if I were a motorist on the M1, I wouldn't feel confident that I'd get through any tailbacks/ roadworks to the station in time for an hourly service, or a potential forty five minutes wait for a London journey!

Given the way that Nottingham has proactively tackled parking (charging for spaces to encourage public transport) and the number of places north of EMP that are convenient for the motorway but lack a regular London train service, I could have seen the Parkway station working well if it had a proper service (note that I'm ignoring any Airport passengers - I've used National Express coaches in the past to get to/from the Airport, which was okay, but I don't think that you could build the entire business case for the station on airport passengers - the "park and ride" passengers are the meat and potatoes, with any airport passengers being the gravy!).

Agreed - it rather falls through the cracks at the moment.

Anyone living in the Nottinghamshire area and using the airport is almost certain to drive to the airport and park anyway. Let’s face it, it’ll be cheaper and more convenient than the train, and that area of the country is already very car centric.

I agree affluent “Super-commuters” from Nottingham and surrounds are probably a better customer base but, depending on where they live, Grantham will be an equally easy drive, and offers more frequent and faster connections to the capital.

 

[317666]

Cambridge-Ely on a Sunday is xx52, xx00 and xx04 then nothing for 48 minutes!

The same is true in reverse - xx53, xx57 and xx03!

 

[arb]

The same is true in reverse - xx53, xx57 and xx03!

After reversing it, look at Ely to Cambridge North rather than Ely to Cambridge: xx57 and xx03 only, then a 54 minute wait.

 

[BrettSy96]

During the day Grantham to London seems quite unbalanced, as you get the xx:08 and xx:18 departures then nothing for 50 minutes. (Besides the odd Hull trains service to Kings cross)

 

[London Trains]

Euston to Milton Keynes (xx:10, xx:20, xx:43 leaving 10, 23 and 27 min gaps)
Euston to Stoke on Trent (xx:00, xx:20 leaving 20 and 40 min gaps)
Euston to Crewe (xx:07, xx:10, xx:40, xx:43 leaving 3, 30, 3 and 24 min gaps)

LNWR Euston to Milton Keynes (xx:15, xx:24, xx:46, xx:49, xx:54 leaving 9, 22, 3, 5 and 21 minute gaps)
LNWR Euston to Northampton (xx:15, xx:24, xx:49 leaving 9, 25 and 34 minute gaps)

 

[Jamesrob637]

I'm sure there are even Swiss stations with the same phenomenon despite their Taktfahrplan.

 

[JackTheLad]

St Mary Cray sees it's twice hourly Victoria services come within 10 minutes of each other monday to saturday, then nothing for 50mins. You do have the Thameslink Blackfriars stoppers on an even 30 minute frequency but that takes 45 minutes to reach town as opposed to 21 minutes on the SE Fasts to Victoria

 

[Ianno87]

During the day Grantham to London seems quite unbalanced, as you get the xx:08 and xx:18 departures then nothing for 50 minutes. (Besides the odd Hull trains service to Kings cross)

Same pair of LNER trains as call at Stevenage (mentioned upthread).

 

[BrettSy96]

Same pair of LNER trains as call at Stevenage (mentioned upthread).

Oh yeah that’s right, at least with Stevenage there are other direct services to London which are frequent!

 

[Jamesrob637]

Heaton Chapel and Levenshulme on Sundays. Hourly to Stockport is acceptable but three hour gaps towards Manchester are dire. The Sunday service at these two is currently exactly the same as pre-COVID now that the Buxton is hourly from two-hourly. The gaps northbound have existed for a couple of years. Prior to 2018 we had two trains per hour in each direction which suited perfectly.

Even Mondays to Saturdays HTC and LVM have unbalanced calling patterns. Up to four trains per hour but all within half an hour then nothing for the other half!

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Its difficult to avoid irregular intervals at some stations when you have stopping and (semi-)fast services running on the same line.

 

[CHAPS2034]

Manchester Piccadilly to Cheadle Hume
xx01 - Crewe (arr xx20)
xx37 - Alderley Edge (arr xx55)
xx44 - Stoke (arr xx00)

Even worse at Stockport - departures are xx20/51/57

In the down direction, departures from CHU to Stockport/Piccadilly are xx00/xx24/xx37, so a bit better