Trivia: Which county towns do not have an InterCity service?

[tbtc]

I’m not sure why this is always so controversial.

For me the meaning of “InterCity” will always be tied in to what it meant under post sectorisation BR: long distance express services that were Swallow liveried, operated by HSTs or loco hauled, with mk 3 and 4 rolling stock.

So today that really only means GWR (mainline), Avanti, EMR (mainline), XC, LNER and GA (mainline), all of which operate today using equivalent stock. Gatex has arguably been downgraded and is no longer operated by equivalent stock.

TPE could be argued to have been “upgraded” as it uses 125mph capable stock.

This is the problem though - InterCity operated 158s - InterCity operated Mk2s - there were 37s in "Swallow" livery - but InterCity was just a convenient was of highlighting the most profitable services, so BR could point to them an say "InterCity makes a profit" (rather than the truth of "anything that makes a profit has been branded as InterCity").

We do like such binary distinctions, even though it's hard to say where to draw any line (e.g. a 350 will go faster on the WCML than an "Inter7City" HST does for ScotRail, but most enthusiasts would call the latter more "InterCity" than the former)

 

[Snow1964]

Surrey are relocating from Kingston upon Thames. I can't remember if they have left yet. The new headquarters I think might be in Woking but equally they might be spreading out more to multiple places.

As for Kingston upon Thames. It hasn't been in the county of Surrey since 1965, when it became part of Greater London.

Surrey have abandoned moving to Woking
Now going to Reigate (the former Canon HQ in Cockshot Hill)

Rather less of of a train service than Kingston or Woking, and not Inter City

 

[stantheman]

Alloa

 

[FQ]

it is nothing to do with the rolling stock. That is perfectly good.

No, I'd argue that the York-Edinburgh section of TPE is Intercity standard partially because of the rolling stock - a 3 coach diesel train with doors in the middles is at very best regional but a longer electric 125mph capable train is intercity (particularly given the calling pattern rivals LNER along there).

 

[43066]

This is the problem though - InterCity operated 158s - InterCity operated Mk2s - there were 37s in "Swallow" livery - but InterCity was just a convenient was of highlighting the most profitable services, so BR could point to them an say "InterCity makes a profit" (rather than the truth of "anything that makes a profit has been branded as InterCity").

We do like such binary distinctions, even though it's hard to say where to draw any line (e.g. a 350 will go faster on the WCML than an "Inter7City" HST does for ScotRail, but most enthusiasts would call the latter more "InterCity" than the former)

I suppose the 1980s version of the brand is probably what most people think of - as opposed to earlier uses which date back to the 1950s and (IIRC) included things like boat trains. I take your point re. the mk2s (I’d forgotten about the WCML loco hauled stock).

For me it isn’t any one thing, it’s a combination of:

- 100+ mph
- to/from London (apart from XC)
- historically loco hauled/HST
- long distance/class one
- include a buffet car
- included in post sectorisation brand
- historically painted in swallow livery

The “elephant test” is probably useful here: like an elephant, it’s difficult to define, but you recognise it when you see it .

Apologies for the Wikipedia reference, but this article (and the fleet list) sums things up very well for me.

InterCity (British Rail) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[cle]

Two big arguments about things which no longer exist or matter - InterCity and counties/county towns! Especially the every-village-is-a-county ones in Scotland.

Plus fun about why Gatwick Express was intercity, and services to Weymouth were not. That illustrious arrow through the interchange circle on a map, denoting one's town as somewhere of importance!

Through clock-face frequency, faster journeys and better stock, so many more places enjoy a similar level of service. The GWML to Bristol and GA to Norwich are more like outer commuter these days. People travel between Manchester and London so much more than ever. The 350s brought a second tier of 'intercity' to the WCML with Project 110, as did the Cruisers. And how about Kent HS1 services? It has changed a lot.

 

[High Dyke]

Currently Oakham doesn't have a 'Inter-city' service, with a change to the London timetable.

 

[hexagon789]

Ayr - served by the Royal Scot to/from Euston until the 1990s.

 

[backontrack]

Including ScotRail's HSTs as InterCity services (which I think is correct considering it's literally going to be branded as Inter7City), here's the pre-1889 list.

Bedford, Reading, Chester, Truro, Carlisle, Derby, Exeter, Durham, Chelmsford, Gloucester, Winchester, Lancaster, Leicester, Lincoln, Norwich, Nottingham, Oxford, Taunton, Stafford, Ipswich, York, Aberdeen, Cupar, Inverness, Stonehaven, Edinburgh, Elgin, Nairn, Perth, Stirling and Cardiff all have regular InterCity services.

Northampton, Shrewsbury, Guildford and Carmarthen have somewhat irregular InterCity services - usually, so does Oakham. Cambridge has an XC service, but I'd argue that this isn't really so much an InterCity service.

Aylesbury, Dorchester, Hereford, Hertford, Huntingdon, Maidstone, Brentford, Lewes, Warwick, Appleby, Trowbridge, Worcester, Ayr, Wick, Alloa, Dumfries, Dumbarton, Lanark, Dingwall, Linlithgow, Welshpool, Haverfordwest, Antrim and Coleraine all have train services; however, none of these are InterCity services.

Alnwick, Forfar, Lochgilphead, Banff, Duns, Rothesay, Cromarty, Haddington, Kinross, Kirkcudbright, Kirkwall, Peebles, Renfrew, Jedburgh, Selkirk, Lerwick, Dornoch, Wigtown, Beaumaris, Brecon, Caernarfon, Cardigan, Ruthin, Mold, Dolgellau, Monmouth, Presteigne, Armagh, Downpatrick, Enniskillen and Omagh currently do not have railway stations.

 

[hexagon789]

Aylesbury, Dorchester, Hereford, Hertford, Huntingdon, Maidstone, Brentford, Lewes, Warwick, Appleby, Trowbridge, Worcester, Ayr, Wick, Alloa, Dumfries, Dumbarton, Lanark, Dingwall, Linlithgow, Welshpool, Haverfordwest, Antrim and Coleraine all have train services; however, none of these are InterCity services.

If Antrim and Coleraine don't have InterCity services (which I'm not arguing with it hasn't really been an InterCity style service on the Derry line since the early 1970s), why isn't Londonderry included with them given its the same train which runs through each of them to Belfast?

 

[backontrack]

If Antrim and Coleraine don't have InterCity services (which I'm not arguing with it hasn't really been an InterCity style service on the Derry line since the early 1970s), why isn't Londonderry included with them given its the same train which runs through each of them to Belfast?

It's not the historic county town, pre-1889, so I didn't put it on the list.

 

[hexagon789]

It's not the historic county town, pre-1889, so I didn't put it on the list.

Oh I see, Coleraine is the county town of County Derry?

That's a bit weird, given the eponymous Derry is much larger!

 

[backontrack]

Oh I see, Coleraine is the county town of County Derry?

That's a bit weird, given the eponymous Derry is much larger!

That's often the way with county towns. Alnwick is hardly the largest town in Northumberland, for example.

 

[hexagon789]

That's often the way with county towns. Alnwick is hardly the largest town in Northumberland, for example.

True, or Matlock Derbyshire but historically they usually made more sense. Derby was the county town of Derbyshire until about 30 years ago for instance.

 

[backontrack]

True, or Matlock Derbyshire but historically they usually made more sense. Derby was the county town of Derbyshire until about 30 years ago for instance.

Yeah, there are examples like that. I think Trowbridge is one that surprises people; they expect it to be Salisbury or Swindon.

 

[Western 52]

Haverfordwest in Pembrokeshire not mentioned yet? Only TfW services these days.

 

[backontrack]

Haverfordwest in Pembrokeshire not mentioned yet? Only TfW services these days.

I mentioned it briefly.

 

[adrock1976]

Maybe, as a starting point, you could at least agree on a common definition of what is a county and what is a county town - e.g. is this map helpful? https://wikishire.co.uk/map/#/centre=54.420,-1.509/zoom=9

Are we talking about modern day government administration boundaries or historic ones? And, within each one, are you talking about where the "county town" actually is today or where it was for a hundred years?





The problem we have is that we are lumbered with the legacy of the routes that BR decided to brand as InterCity, which was more about "which services are actually operationally profitable", rather than any specific definition relating to the type of train service - so Gatwick Express was lucrative enough to warrant being part of the InterCity sector (because it's profitable if you are charging people a premium fare to an Airport) even though Gatwick isn't a city... but the service linking Liverpool - Manchester - Leeds - York - Newcastle was "TransPennine" rather than "InterCity".

There's then the problem that some bona fide "InterCity" services are effectively the local stopper beyond a certain point from London, because they've taken the path that a local train would have otherwise used - so you can take a 125mph train from Ladybank to Markinch or from Par to Bodmin Parkway because, whilst XC run relatively fast from Edinburgh to Bristol, they are a local train for local people at the extremes of the network. Same with the Kings Lynn services discussed above. I'm sure we had a thread about it a while ago but I can't find it.

Also, we have enthusiasts who treat units like the 350s (which run at speeds faster than 100mph) as "outer suburban" because of the door position, so it's hard to get anyone to agree on where to draw the line... did Leeds - Manchester get upgraded from "Provincial" to "InterCIty" when TPE replaced the middle door 185s with 802s/ Mk5s? Was Preston - Hazel Grove "InterCity" when Northern ran it with hired in 125mph 180s?

In my opening post, I should have specified everything that is (or was) county towns throughout since the ex Stockton & Darlington Railway was built. I am aware of some being created under the Metropolitan Counties Act 1972 and some being abolished in recent times, hence how I am flexible in what is defined as a county town (which has (or had) a seat of governance at one time, or [PLACENAME] shire.

The term "InterCity" I was thinking along the lines of the BR period, but also ones before 1948.

 

[infobleep]

Including ScotRail's HSTs as InterCity services (which I think is correct considering it's literally going to be branded as Inter7City), here's the pre-1889 list.

Bedford, Reading, Chester, Truro, Carlisle, Derby, Exeter, Durham, Chelmsford, Gloucester, Winchester, Lancaster, Leicester, Lincoln, Norwich, Nottingham, Oxford, Taunton, Stafford, Ipswich, York, Aberdeen, Cupar, Inverness, Stonehaven, Edinburgh, Elgin, Nairn, Perth, Stirling and Cardiff all have regular InterCity services.

Northampton, Shrewsbury, Guildford and Carmarthen have somewhat irregular InterCity services - usually, so does Oakham. Cambridge has an XC service, but I'd argue that this isn't really so much an InterCity service.

Aylesbury, Dorchester, Hereford, Hertford, Huntingdon, Maidstone, Brentford, Lewes, Warwick, Appleby, Trowbridge, Worcester, Ayr, Wick, Alloa, Dumfries, Dumbarton, Lanark, Dingwall, Linlithgow, Welshpool, Haverfordwest, Antrim and Coleraine all have train services; however, none of these are InterCity services.

Alnwick, Forfar, Lochgilphead, Banff, Duns, Rothesay, Cromarty, Haddington, Kinross, Kirkcudbright, Kirkwall, Peebles, Renfrew, Jedburgh, Selkirk, Lerwick, Dornoch, Wigtown, Beaumaris, Brecon, Caernarfon, Cardigan, Ruthin, Mold, Dolgellau, Monmouth, Presteigne, Armagh, Downpatrick, Enniskillen and Omagh currently do not have railway stations.

Guildford isn't a county town. Not sure if it ever was during the life of the railways. It certainly feels like it should be a county town though.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

County town doesn't mean much since 1974 and 1997, what with multiple reorganisations with mergers, splits and unitary this and that.
Many counties are polycentric these days anyway.
Up here, Flint has an inter-city service but it's not the county town of Flintshire - that's Mold, with no station.
Denbighshire's admin centre is at Ruthin, though Rhyl (which has an inter-city service) collects the council tax.
Conwy CC lives in Conwy town, which has no intercity service - but there is one on the other side of the river at Llandudno Jn.
Clwyd (HQ Mold) is still the ceremonial county for Flintshire, Denbighshire and Conwy (and also Wrexham, with its 1tpd IC service).

The cities in North Wales are Bangor (ancient) and St Asaph/Llanelwy (modern), both with cathedrals.
But neither are county towns, and St Asaph has no station.
Apparently Avanti has de-named "our" 390s City of Bangor/Dinas Bangor and City of Chester (though the Bangor moniker is now on Avanti's 221 016).

 

[Hardcastle]

Dumfries does not have a Inter City service.

 

[backontrack]

Guildford isn't a county town. Not sure if it ever was during the life of the railways. It certainly feels like it should be a county town though.

I mentioned in this post that these are the pre-1889 county towns. Guildford was the county town of Surrey historically. It hasn't been one for a long time, though.

 

[tbtc]

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/what-is-intercity.88720/ << this was the thread about trying to define InterCity from seven years ago - would have been unthinkable back then that Aberdeen to Inverness would evert be considered particularly InterCity (though Liverpool - Manchester - Leeds - York - Newcastle - Edinburgh apparently doesn't?).

Obviously anything linking Aberdeen and Inverness is going between two cities, but then by the same definition the Metrolink from Manchester to Salford Quays is going between two cities.

Maybe people's opinion of the Holyhead - Cardiff service will change once it gets loco hauled Mk4s?

 

[infobleep]

I mentioned in this post that these are the pre-1889 county towns. Guildford was the county town of Surrey historically. It hasn't been one for a long time, though.

This is what Wikipedia says:

County town
Guildford is sometimes described as the county town of Surrey, but it is not clear whether this is the case or not. The issue is not made easier because sources disagree over the definition of a county town. One source states that "a county town is the administrative centre for a county, but [that] local government undergoes frequent reorganisation and what was once the county town may no longer be the administrative centre."[56][dead link] Surrey County Council maintains no administrative presence in Guildford, doing so instead in central Kingston upon Thames, which became part of Greater London in the 1960s, though the above citation claims Guildford as the county town of Surrey.

There appears to be no requirement that a county town actually has to be within the borders of the county, and the Oxford English Dictionary defines 'county town' as, "The town that is the administrative capital of a county",[57] a description which would disqualify Guildford's claim. There are claims that Henry VII granted the status of county town when he made Guildford the custody of the standard measures.[58] However, the statute does not explicitly state that this makes the settlement a county town.

Guildford's previous official historian[who?] claims that Guildford was granted the "ancient county court in Guildford by a grant of Henry III in 1257, marking Guildford's status as county town of Surrey",[59] but it has been argued that this status is an inaccurate interpretation by said historian. His position is not backed up by the original documentation.

Whilst there are sources that claim Guildford as the county town, there are many others, such as Whitaker's Almanac, that assign this definition to Kingston upon Thames with others stating that it is not clear. Neither Guildford Borough Council nor Kingston Council make any claim for their town being the county town.

Guildford - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

So if Guildford was a county town, it wasn't whilst the railways were in operation and I thought that was a requirement.

 

[backontrack]

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/what-is-intercity.88720/ << this was the thread about trying to define InterCity from seven years ago - would have been unthinkable back then that Aberdeen to Inverness would evert be considered particularly InterCity (though Liverpool - Manchester - Leeds - York - Newcastle - Edinburgh apparently doesn't?).

Obviously anything linking Aberdeen and Inverness is going between two cities, but then by the same definition the Metrolink from Manchester to Salford Quays is going between two cities.

Maybe people's opinion of the Holyhead - Cardiff service will change once it gets loco hauled Mk4s?

I feel like it's fair game nowadays as the trains between them are branded as an Intercity service, literally. It's one of the few services on the network still using Intercity branding.

(Also this is a non-argument, but it's a quirk that Elgin is historically a city, though it hasn't been one for a long time. And it's not one of the Scottish 7 cities that Inter7City is supposed to connect.)

 

[class26]

*And* it depends on what you count as a county town - then (and when's then?) and now.

So we can add

Berkshire - Abingdon (superseded by Reading)
Middlesex - Brentford
Surrey - Kingston-upon-Thames
Isle of Wight - Newport

And would anyone like to argue one way or the other for

Lincolnshire - Lincoln
East Riding of Yorkshire - Beverley

Lincoln has 6 x 800`s to London per day

 

[AndyW33]

Lincoln has 6 x 800`s to London per day

Not to mention EMR's Meridian to St Pancras

 

[birchesgreen]

Surely Warwick has an intercity service unless you don't consider that pointy silver thing with a class 68 roaring at one end an intercity train?

 

[Ianno87]

Surely Warwick has an intercity service unless you don't consider that pointy silver thing with a class 68 roaring at one end an intercity train?

One could also argue that Warwick is a continuous urban area with Leamington Spa, which is on the "proper" XC network.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

One could also argue that Warwick is a continuous urban area with Leamington Spa, which is on the "proper" XC network.

So Brentford (Middlesex) and Kingston upon Thames (Surrey) have intercity services because they're part of London and so are Paddington and King's Cross? Yes?