What a waste of a high speed train!

[RichW1]

I have to agree broadly with the poster on this one.... It seems to me the ECML and WCML and possibly some Midland services to Sheffield are the only lines left with Intercity stopping patterns. GWML is a joke noe - it's HST's operating long distance regional trains and yet Trans Pennine operates 100mph trains from manchester to Glasgow which is ridiculously slow for 200plus miles on broadly 125mph track.

I realise 125mph isn't particularly fast but it beats 100mph so there is something wrong with both ordering stock with such slow top speeds for longer distances and also with allocation of 125mph stock on lines that don't use it where others are desperate for it.

Before anyone lays in with how rolling stock allocation works....I know. I'm just saying we are in a desperate state with existing allocations and procurement of trains for lines which they are not appropriate. Look at HST's now on GWML, what's the point? The trains to Plymouth and Penzance that don't stop between Reading and Taunton are the only ones that can justifiably call themselves Intercity's and only because of that section as it stops way too frequently after that in the west Country.

It's a nonsense.....I'm sure it's supposed to be interCITY NOT interVILLAGE

 

[MCR247]

Well how many people want to travel from London/Reading - Plymouth direct non-stop? Enough for an 8 coach HST? Not really

 

[RobShipway]

Maybe, I am being too simple about the situation but could the Class 180's be swapped for the some of the Class 170's that Cross Country uses, which would then cascade the Class 170's on to Northern to use for the Blackpool services?

Maybe have the 5 Class 180's do the Cardiff - Birmingham - Nottingham Cross Country services? Which then frees up the class 170's from this route to be used on the Nortthern Blackpool services?

Or even have the Class 180's operating on the Birmigham, Leicester to Stanstead services if there is more of a demand for flights from Stanstead as per another thread in this forum?

 

[Bastiaan]

Yep, that's too simple indeed :P Because that would break XC's uniform fleet of 170s and would also give Northern a very small fleet of a class they don't have now.

Is merging with the ATW 175s maybe possible solution, as they probably have the same parts and technology? This could release some 158s for Northern.

 

[RobShipway]

I have suggested before that the Class 158's used alongside the Class 175's on the ATW North Wales Route should be changed for the Class 180's, but everyone thought that was a bad idea.....

 

[Bastiaan]

Interesting Do you remember where this has been discussed before?

 

[RobShipway]

Previuous thread which I cannot find at the moment which was talking about the allocation of stock and how it could be arranged better.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Try 5 x 180s find home? thread.

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=34010 or http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=33756.

 

[The Planner]

Can't see ATW wanting rid of the 158s seeing as they are the only DMUs with ERTMS installed.

 

[Mojo]

I have to agree broadly with the poster on this one.... It seems to me the ECML and WCML and possibly some Midland services to Sheffield are the only lines left with Intercity stopping patterns.

I'm not so sure about that; I was on an East Coast train the other week which called at shacks like Morpeth Alnmouth and Northallerton.

In terms of where trains call at, I think the Great Western is slightly different compared to other lines in terms of the high demand for passengers travelling to stations which aren't London, mainly due to the high amount of business being done in large towns such as Reading and Newbury and at other connecting locations such as Oxford (change at Didcot when coming from the West).

 

[MCR247]

Maybe, I am being too simple about the situation but could the Class 180's be swapped for the some of the Class 170's that Cross Country uses, which would then cascade the Class 170's on to Northern to use for the Blackpool services?

Maybe have the 5 Class 180's do the Cardiff - Birmingham - Nottingham Cross Country services? Which then frees up the class 170's from this route to be used on the Nortthern Blackpool services?

Or even have the Class 180's operating on the Birmigham, Leicester to Stanstead services if there is more of a demand for flights from Stanstead as per another thread in this forum?

But then Tylesley would have to be trained for 180s and Northen trained on 170s. Pretty pointless, as I'm sure on XC the diagrams are switched so a Nottingham - Cardiff & rtn then works a Nottingham - Birmingham etc and a Birmingham - Stansted works a Birmingham - Leicester

And why? Northern would still lose out, they'd just get 9 coaches and lose 15!

 

[ainsworth74]

I'm not so sure about that; I was on an East Coast train the other week which called at shacks like Morpeth Alnmouth and Northallerton.

There are (on a weekday) 7 EC trains which call at Northallerton northbound out of about 33 which get that far north with the first arriving at 14:58. Morpeth has about 3 northbound callers. Not exactly a good service.

 

[LE Greys]

I have to agree broadly with the poster on this one.... It seems to me the ECML and WCML and possibly some Midland services to Sheffield are the only lines left with Intercity stopping patterns. GWML is a joke noe - it's HST's operating long distance regional trains and yet Trans Pennine operates 100mph trains from manchester to Glasgow which is ridiculously slow for 200plus miles on broadly 125mph track.

I realise 125mph isn't particularly fast but it beats 100mph so there is something wrong with both ordering stock with such slow top speeds for longer distances and also with allocation of 125mph stock on lines that don't use it where others are desperate for it.

Before anyone lays in with how rolling stock allocation works....I know. I'm just saying we are in a desperate state with existing allocations and procurement of trains for lines which they are not appropriate. Look at HST's now on GWML, what's the point? The trains to Plymouth and Penzance that don't stop between Reading and Taunton are the only ones that can justifiably call themselves Intercity's and only because of that section as it stops way too frequently after that in the west Country.

It's a nonsense.....I'm sure it's supposed to be interCITY NOT interVILLAGE

I'm not so sure about that; I was on an East Coast train the other week which called at shacks like Morpeth Alnmouth and Northallerton.

In terms of where trains call at, I think the Great Western is slightly different compared to other lines in terms of the high demand for passengers travelling to stations which aren't London, mainly due to the high amount of business being done in large towns such as Reading and Newbury and at other connecting locations such as Oxford (change at Didcot when coming from the West).

It's always been that way. The down Limited used to run non-stop to Plymouth, then call at Truro, Gwinear Road and St Erth. However, the corresponding up train used to stop at Newton Abbott, Exeter, Taunton and Castle Cary to pick up slip coaches. There also used to be regular slips at Reading, that were coupled to up suburban trains to Paddington. Abandoning the slips meant additional stops. Really, the answer would be to run a train in two portions from Plymouth onwards, one running fast from Plymouth to Penzance, the other stopping everywhere. That can't be done with an HST, but Dellas don't have good enough on-board catering for a proper restaurant service.

As for the Berks and Hants itself, I think there are issues with long block sections, otherwise most Penzance trains should run non-stop Reading-Taunton (Reading-Exeter for the Limited) with an hourly semi-fast formed by an extension of the Bedwyn service going all the way to Exeter, also linking Frome to London. However, the long block sections cut down on capacity, and that probably makes it impossible.

 

[tbtc]

Unless you pinch from Open Access operators, there aren't enough 180s to do anything with (e.g. you can't convert all trains on one line to 180s). They may be better for Cardiff - Portsmouth/ Liverpool - Norwich/ Manchester - Glasgow (or any other route discussed), but there are only three/ five of them spare, which is only going to confuse things.

If top speed on the ECML wasn't 15, you could swap the 180s with GC/ HT for Turbostars, and use the whole fifteen 180s somewhere, but that will never happen.

The best "solution" I could come up with was giving all five "spare" 180s to First to run the Manchester - Hull service (in conjunction with the Hull - London one), and relegate the Windermere shuttle to a Northern 156 during the daytimes, thus giving the five freed 185s to replace the nine 170s at Transpennine, send the nine 170s to Scotrail to release seven/eight 158s and give the 158s to Northern/ EMT/ FGW (all of whom have capacity issues). Not ideal, I know, but what else can you do with five units (without making them non-standard)?

 

[RichW1]

It's always been that way. The down Limited used to run non-stop to Plymouth, then call at Truro, Gwinear Road and St Erth. However, the corresponding up train used to stop at Newton Abbott, Exeter, Taunton and Castle Cary to pick up slip coaches. There also used to be regular slips at Reading, that were coupled to up suburban trains to Paddington. Abandoning the slips meant additional stops. Really, the answer would be to run a train in two portions from Plymouth onwards, one running fast from Plymouth to Penzance, the other stopping everywhere. That can't be done with an HST, but Dellas don't have good enough on-board catering for a proper restaurant service.

As for the Berks and Hants itself, I think there are issues with long block sections, otherwise most Penzance trains should run non-stop Reading-Taunton (Reading-Exeter for the Limited) with an hourly semi-fast formed by an extension of the Bedwyn service going all the way to Exeter, also linking Frome to London. However, the long block sections cut down on capacity, and that probably makes it impossible.

I know, it's just a shame we've got to this as services have been getting slower due to unacceptable stopping patterns at stations that do not warrant Intercity services. Places like Alnmouth and Dunbar shouldn't have Intercity's at all; they're local stations for local type trains! It does annoy me, especially when you look back at old timetables, yes they were running with less rail traffic but also they didn't stop as frequently at village stations. It really is ridiculous that the HST's now aren't Intercity's; they're just regional trains that look like Intercity's which gives people in the likes of Swansea and Cardiff a poor timing to London which isn't right.

I agree with you it should be non-stop to Exeter or at least Taunton then onwards to all destinations as like you say you can't path anything through there because of line capacity issues. But really, Berks and Hants is only 110mph line and as such pathing local stopping services should be able to be done. I'm really starting to wonder if the network rail policy of pulling up all sidings and some track alongside platforms that could've been used has caused network capacity constraints in itself!!

To have no Intercity service timings at all west of london seems ridiculous, and that there's no funding for regional trains that could take up this role and the same goes for the whole country.

 

[Greenback]

I know, it's just a shame we've got to this as services have been getting slower due to unacceptable stopping patterns at stations that do not warrant Intercity services. Places like Alnmouth and Dunbar shouldn't have Intercity's at all; they're local stations for local type trains! It does annoy me, especially when you look back at old timetables, yes they were running with less rail traffic but also they didn't stop as frequently at village stations. It really is ridiculous that the HST's now aren't Intercity's; they're just regional trains that look like Intercity's which gives people in the likes of Swansea and Cardiff a poor timing to London which isn't right.

I agree with you it should be non-stop to Exeter or at least Taunton then onwards to all destinations as like you say you can't path anything through there because of line capacity issues. But really, Berks and Hants is only 110mph line and as such pathing local stopping services should be able to be done. I'm really starting to wonder if the network rail policy of pulling up all sidings and some track alongside platforms that could've been used has caused network capacity constraints in itself!!

To have no Intercity service timings at all west of london seems ridiculous, and that there's no funding for regional trains that could take up this role and the same goes for the whole country.

I do think that places like Alnmotuh and Dunbar should be served primarily by local type services, with maybe one or two stops per day at peak times by long distance fast services.

On the GWML, long distance commuting has increased from places like Didcot, Swindon and Bristol to such an extent that all trains are now really commuter services. There is also a fair bit of commuting to Bristol Parkway now as well.

What might bring back some speed and glamour is one long distance service an hour that calls at either Reading or Swindon, and one that is first stop Bristol Parkway or Bath Spa. But can you imagine the howls of protest from Swindon, Didcot and Reading?

 

[paul1609]

What stock do you suggest they use instead? Maybe just sending everyone by taxi instead.

Given the current level of subsidy of Northerns services it might well be cheaper to provide a taxi.
Surely a high priority for the new Con-dem government?

 

[Mojo]

What might bring back some speed and glamour is one long distance service an hour that calls at either Reading or Swindon, and one that is first stop Bristol Parkway or Bath Spa. But can you imagine the howls of protest from Swindon, Didcot and Reading?

Similarly from Bristol, South Wales and elsewhere too. The M4 Corridor around Swindon, Newbury, Reading and Bracknell is often referred to as Britain's Sillicon Valley and a large number of businesses operate from this area, which probably helps to give the GWML some of its unique passenger flows in comparison to the southern sections of the WCML and ECML where the main emphasis is going to London.

 

[Dave R]

But then Tylesley would have to be trained for 180s and Northen trained on 170s. Pretty pointless, as I'm sure on XC the diagrams are switched so a Nottingham - Cardiff & rtn then works a Nottingham - Birmingham etc and a Birmingham - Stansted works a Birmingham - Leicester

And why? Northern would still lose out, they'd just get 9 coaches and lose 15!

Cardiff-Nottingham route is timetabled so that an arriving train at Nottingham from Cardiff will form a train back to Cardiff and an arriving train from Birmingham will form a service back to Birmingham.

However the Birmingham-Stansted diagrams are shared with the Birmingham-Leicester diagrams. As you stated.

 

[Greenback]

Similarly from Bristol, South Wales and elsewhere too. The M4 Corridor around Swindon, Newbury, Reading and Bracknell is often referred to as Britain's Sillicon Valley and a large number of businesses operate from this area, which probably helps to give the GWML some of its unique passenger flows in comparison to the southern sections of the WCML and ECML where the main emphasis is going to London.

Yes, quite right, it would be a mistake to forget that many people in South Wales and Bristol actually need or want to go to Reading and Swindon! And vice versa of course! As I know form my six years in Reading, there's far more to it now than beer, biscuits and bulbs!

I'm afraid that the service along the Thames Valley has developed int he way it has due to customer demand. There is little point in introducing limited stop services if the train is a quarter full or less as a result!

 

[RobShipway]

But then Tylesley would have to be trained for 180s and Northen trained on 170s. Pretty pointless, as I'm sure on XC the diagrams are switched so a Nottingham - Cardiff & rtn then works a Nottingham - Birmingham etc and a Birmingham - Stansted works a Birmingham - Leicester

And why? Northern would still lose out, they'd just get 9 coaches and lose 15!

Rather than you pointing out problems with other peoples ideas, how about you have an idea of you own on the situation?

Yes, quite right, it would be a mistake to forget that many people in South Wales and Bristol actually need or want to go to Reading and Swindon! And vice versa of course! As I know form my six years in Reading, there's far more to it now than beer, biscuits and bulbs!

I'm afraid that the service along the Thames Valley has developed int he way it has due to customer demand. There is little point in introducing limited stop services if the train is a quarter full or less as a result!

That is also because you have people that live in London, but work in Slough, Maidenhead, Reading etc... and also vice versa who require regular services.

 

[MCR247]

Rather than you pointing out problems with other peoples ideas, how about you have an idea of you own on the situation?

I have somewhere but I'll post it again,

TPEs 185s are based in Manchester. So are NT 180s. So if Northern 180s are used on some Manchester - Scotlands or something and then TPEs 185s are used by Northern on Northern routes they are more suited for

There

 

[RichW1]

Yes, quite right, it would be a mistake to forget that many people in South Wales and Bristol actually need or want to go to Reading and Swindon! And vice versa of course! As I know form my six years in Reading, there's far more to it now than beer, biscuits and bulbs!

I'm afraid that the service along the Thames Valley has developed int he way it has due to customer demand. There is little point in introducing limited stop services if the train is a quarter full or less as a result!

I agree with you they have a point there, but really it appears that the urban corridor there now means that where once Intercity services were warranted to get to Bristol and S.Wales from London quickly and vice versa are no longer needed. I suppose we just have to accept that if travelling between stations on the route it works for you but if you get on at one end in Swansea or cardiff and want to get to the termination point, you might as well walk (I'm jesting but you get my point). I don't see why they couldn't run a few services clockfaced with limited stops, but there you go that's privatisation and bums on seats economics instead of railwaymen being in charge where you actually use the train to go faster.

Essentially the berks and hants is the GW main line now as it's the only IC service, the rest are no different to southern, Southeastern javelin, Anglian and Southwest trains, GW just uses HST's instead now as rolling stock. I suppose they're the DB regional services equivalent in germany that do 125mph also. Hey ho, progress ey. I'm still convinced ripping up so much track has caused capacity constraints and limts to pathing however.

 

[43021HST]

And vice versa of course! As I know form my six years in Reading, there's far more to it now than beer, biscuits and bulbs!

Theres no more Beer Biscuits and bulbs, its just finance that is the main industry in Reading, if there is far more to Reading than the 3Bs I have failed to notice it. If you know please tell me.

 

[RobShipway]

I have somewhere but I'll post it again,

TPEs 185s are based in Manchester. So are NT 180s. So if Northern 180s are used on some Manchester - Scotlands or something and then TPEs 185s are used by Northern on Northern routes they are more suited for

There

Oops....sorry.....

 

[MCR247]

Oops....sorry.....

Its alright, and my plan probably has plenty of flaws in it

Also, it might not have been in this thread as there has been quite a few recently and I have lost track of which is which

 

[LE Greys]

I agree with you they have a point there, but really it appears that the urban corridor there now means that where once Intercity services were warranted to get to Bristol and S.Wales from London quickly and vice versa are no longer needed. I suppose we just have to accept that if travelling between stations on the route it works for you but if you get on at one end in Swansea or cardiff and want to get to the termination point, you might as well walk (I'm jesting but you get my point). I don't see why they couldn't run a few services clockfaced with limited stops, but there you go that's privatisation and bums on seats economics instead of railwaymen being in charge where you actually use the train to go faster.

Essentially the berks and hants is the GW main line now as it's the only IC service, the rest are no different to southern, Southeastern javelin, Anglian and Southwest trains, GW just uses HST's instead now as rolling stock. I suppose they're the DB regional services equivalent in germany that do 125mph also. Hey ho, progress ey. I'm still convinced ripping up so much track has caused capacity constraints and limts to pathing however.

Some of the worst errors of rationalisation have been corrected (reinstating the middle platforms at Taunton for instance). However, a few decent projects were cancelled for various reasons. The Exeter-Newton Abbot short-cut for instance, and the possibility of quadrupling Reading-Newbury.

The biggest problems with the Penzance route are beyond Exeter and especially beyond Plymouth, but those date right back to the line's construction. It is virtually impossible to speed up anything west of Exeter without major engineering work. The Royal Albert Bridge strikes me as a serious bottleneck (not only slow, but single-track). As a result, Penzance is over 5 hours from London, despite being 97 miles closer than Glasgow.

I do agree that the Bristol route needs a few changes, but perhaps they have to wait until after electrification. Then, it might be possible to reintroduce the Oxford-Bristol service, allowing one London-Bristol service to pull a few stops.

 

[Greenback]

I agree with you they have a point there, but really it appears that the urban corridor there now means that where once Intercity services were warranted to get to Bristol and S.Wales from London quickly and vice versa are no longer needed. I suppose we just have to accept that if travelling between stations on the route it works for you but if you get on at one end in Swansea or cardiff and want to get to the termination point, you might as well walk (I'm jesting but you get my point). I don't see why they couldn't run a few services clockfaced with limited stops, but there you go that's privatisation and bums on seats economics instead of railwaymen being in charge where you actually use the train to go faster.

Essentially the berks and hants is the GW main line now as it's the only IC service, the rest are no different to southern, Southeastern javelin, Anglian and Southwest trains, GW just uses HST's instead now as rolling stock. I suppose they're the DB regional services equivalent in germany that do 125mph also. Hey ho, progress ey. I'm still convinced ripping up so much track has caused capacity constraints and limts to pathing however.

I don't think it's got much to do with privatisation. Br were being criticised for their increased journey times and additional stops back in 1993 - when there was the infamous and very unpopular 2 hour gap (0830-1030) between IC 125's in the morning from Swansea!

I think the HST's were designed for sustained stretches of high speed running rather than having good acceleration and deceleration for frequent stops. But they have alwats made a few stps between Swansea and Cardiff, and they can still do 125 east of Newport, so they do still offer a competitive time, especially when you consider that it's 55 mins from Cardiff to Swansea.

You are correct, I also think much of the rationalisation that has been done since the 1960's has been crucial in limiting flexibility and capacity.

And vice versa of course! As I know form my six years in Reading, there's far more to it now than beer, biscuits and bulbs!

Theres no more Beer Biscuits and bulbs, its just finance that is the main industry in Reading, if there is far more to Reading than the 3Bs I have failed to notice it. If you know please tell me.

There was a fair old bit of IT in the area when I lived there, and the University, as well as the finance and insurance companies. Some of the odler Reading residents didn;t like the changes much, though! They wanted Sutton's Seeds back!

Some of the worst errors of rationalisation have been corrected (reinstating the middle platforms at Taunton for instance). However, a few decent projects were cancelled for various reasons. The Exeter-Newton Abbot short-cut for instance, and the possibility of quadrupling Reading-Newbury.

The biggest problems with the Penzance route are beyond Exeter and especially beyond Plymouth, but those date right back to the line's construction. It is virtually impossible to speed up anything west of Exeter without major engineering work. The Royal Albert Bridge strikes me as a serious bottleneck (not only slow, but single-track). As a result, Penzance is over 5 hours from London, despite being 97 miles closer than Glasgow.

I do agree that the Bristol route needs a few changes, but perhaps they have to wait until after electrification. Then, it might be possible to reintroduce the Oxford-Bristol service, allowing one London-Bristol service to pull a few stops.

I always though a Bristol - Milton Keynes via Bicester service would be a good idea, it would remove a few people from crossing London!

The approach to Swansea is one area that I think needs additional track. A single lead junction into platforms 3 and 4 is not ideal as far as I can see!

 

[WESSEX158]

I always though a Bristol - Milton Keynes via Bicester service would be a good idea, it would remove a few people from crossing London!

And/or Bristol to Bedford

 

[Greenback]

And/or Bristol to Bedford

Yes, that would be even better! I remmebr reading many years ago in a railway magazine a suggestion that Crossrail should be built so as to allow through interCity trains from the West to the East. Norwich to Bristol was mentioned. It's quite difficult totravel form the South West and South Wales to East Anglia, what with crossing London and the fact that 60 minutes must be allowed officially and on jounrey planners. How nice it would be to whizz through London in about 20 minutes without having to change! Just liek Thameslink...

 

[tbtc]

Yes, that would be even better! I remmebr reading many years ago in a railway magazine a suggestion that Crossrail should be built so as to allow through interCity trains from the West to the East. Norwich to Bristol was mentioned. It's quite difficult totravel form the South West and South Wales to East Anglia, what with crossing London and the fact that 60 minutes must be allowed officially and on jounrey planners. How nice it would be to whizz through London in about 20 minutes without having to change! Just liek Thameslink...

Would be nice if Thameslink allowed "long distance" services like that - I'd like to travel from Sheffield to Gatwick/ Brighton