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UK face coverings discussion

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Richard Scott

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I linked this article elsewhere:


It's a fairly long article which talks about various studies which have been looked at, including one with 3 cages of Hamsters, the middle cage had infected animals the outer two healthy, between one set of healthy animals and the infected set was a barrier of surgical mask material. 2/3rds of the unprotected animals for infected vs 1/4 of the protected animals.

The last paragraph is interesting:



Whilst make don't provide 100% protection, there's little doubt that they provide some benefit and I'm yet to see anything (other than some may think that they are 100% safe and so take risks that they shouldn't and that certain materials may make the droplets smaller and so could make the spread worse, also referenced in the article) that masks increase the risk. As such the wearing of masks could have benefits but with little increased risk.

Therefore, unless there's something to show that there's an increased risk with mask wearing then chances are (for most, with the provision for those who need to be exempt from mask wearing) that wearing a mask when inside would reduce the risk of transmission.
The issue is what about in the real world where people put them on and take them off, cannot find any mention of that (apologies if there is as admit to skim reading)? The viral load is then all over their hands. Again this just seems to be laboratory simulation but not if real world conditions/usage.
 
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trebor79

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I linked this article elsewhere:


It's a fairly long article which talks about various studies which have been looked at, including one with 3 cages of Hamsters, the middle cage had infected animals the outer two healthy, between one set of healthy animals and the infected set was a barrier of surgical mask material. 2/3rds of the unprotected animals for infected vs 1/4 of the protected animals.

The last paragraph is interesting:



Whilst make don't provide 100% protection, there's little doubt that they provide some benefit and I'm yet to see anything (other than some may think that they are 100% safe and so take risks that they shouldn't and that certain materials may make the droplets smaller and so could make the spread worse, also referenced in the article) that masks increase the risk. As such the wearing of masks could have benefits but with little increased risk.

Therefore, unless there's something to show that there's an increased risk with mask wearing then chances are (for most, with the provision for those who need to be exempt from mask wearing) that wearing a mask when inside would reduce the risk of transmission.
Some mask material draped between two hamster cages is nothing like the real world where your breath is going to be forcing air and any droplets through the weave of the fabric and around the edges of the mask. This is schoolboy science, and in no way can you extrapolate the results of that into saying masks are effective in the rea world.
I think you touch on the reason why masks overall are a bad thing - people have completely and utterly given up with physical distancing since the mask mandate came in.
I don't believe masks by themselves make any significant difference to transmission - particularly as most are not of the correct material, have outlet valves, are dirty, not worn correctly etc etc. So the lack of distancing which they encourage we know increases transmission. Therefore mandatory masks overall are a bad thing.
 

Yew

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I linked this article elsewhere:


It's a fairly long article which talks about various studies which have been looked at, including one with 3 cages of Hamsters, the middle cage had infected animals the outer two healthy, between one set of healthy animals and the infected set was a barrier of surgical mask material. 2/3rds of the unprotected animals for infected vs 1/4 of the protected animals.

If the mask lobby are relying on such convoluted and unrealistic studies (that seem to 'bait and switch' the question to an easier one); in the face of high-quality randomised control trials like Barasheed 2014, which showed no impact of masks in laboratory-confirmed influenza.

Overall, it seems that low-quality studies have been prefered, in the face of high-quality trials, because the high-quality trials give the 'wrong' answer.
 

DB

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I won't repeat the valid points which others have made but as regards that last paragraph:

Nevertheless, most scientists are confident that they can say something prescriptive about wearing masks. It’s not the only solution, says Gandhi, “but I think it is a profoundly important pillar of pandemic control”. As Digard puts it: “Masks work, but they are not infallible. And, therefore, keep your distance.”

It implies ("most scientists") that there is a consensus that mask wearing is beneficial. This is simply not the case - some think they are, some think they aren't, and others (probably the majority) have't ruled it out but regard the evidence as too weak to make an informed judgement.
 

initiation

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A basic problem is that none of the real world practical data matches the supposed effectiveness of masks. If they are so effective then we would expect to see clear changes when they are introduced; there are none. Other places in Europe have very high mask requirements (including outdoors) but they are not doing any differently to us or even places where less or no mask use is mandated.

I look forward to seeing what the Danish RCT mask study shows....when they can find a journal that is 'brave enough' to publish it.

And, therefore, keep your distance.”
Like ABS in cars, masks seem to make people feel less vulnerable so social distancing is curtailed.
 

MikeWM

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A rather interesting Twitter thread I saw over the weekend from someone who seems to be keeping an open mind on efficacy.

https://twitter.com/Kevin_McKernan/status/1320032362550464516

Key point is this

Raises the question.. Are the masks stopping large droplets or nebulizing them into Aerosols? Aerosols are smaller than 5um and more infective. They are more monodispersed and less likely to precipitate out of the air with humidity. Why dont the mask studies use live virus?

ie. they may be making things worse, which would tally with the evidence we're seeing from the UK, Ireland, France, Italy, Spain......

So if masks are neutral or negative for the wearer (which would seem to be the result of the Danish RCT, else why are they having difficulty publishing) *and* are potentially making things worse for everyone else too, then the policy ends up being rather similar to killing cats and dogs during the black death - supposed 'scientific consensus' that is actually entirely incorrect.


His other point is that if they *do* 'work' then that's not necessarily a good thing too, which tallies with something I've been saying all along.

{asssuming masks work} The fact that our population was not wearing masks for the last few years is the very reason we have a lighter C19 season than the early modelers predicted. They assumed immunity naivete and that assumption was lockdown lethal.

ie. that guy who came into the office with a cold and spread it around may well have been doing you a big favour.
 

big_rig

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I look forward to seeing what the Danish RCT mask study shows....when they can find a journal that is 'brave enough' to publish it.

Likewise.

Ironically as well I note that the three 'pre-print' 'articles' in the link being discussed in favour of masks (each lead authored by an eye doctor, computer scientist and err somebody vaguely involved in IT) have still yet to be peer-reviewed after submission dates of 10 April, 25 May and 26 May. Absolutely shameless journalism to gloss over the six month gap between submission of these 'articles' and them writing this piece where they rely on them as primary sources. All the usual rules go out the window when it comes to masks though.
 
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island

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Face masks work*. The studies prove it.

(when proper medical facemasks are worn and removed properly, in a properly controlled environment, properly disposed of after use, with proper hand hygiene, not touching, lifting, or dropping the mask whilst it’s being worn, and covering the nose and mouth properly.)
 

alexander_coll

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Which latter part is the case with enforcement of many laws. A major influence on whether an individual who is otherwise predisposed to commit a crime is whether they believe they will be caught. Changing the game so that police are instructed to enforce Covid regulations will change that calculation for many, without necessarily imposing much more burden on police.

As for the comment about "vigilantism", I am not comfortable with the underlying idea behind the comment that all law enforcement should be delegated to the police, especially where it relates to matters like mask wearing which have a significant component of being tied to social norms. I'd suggest that social pressure around things like spitting in public, abuse of dedicated parking spaces, & drink driving as examples of where adherence to the law is boosted by the role of social pressure and taboo.

It remains the case that, in their opposition to this particular legislation, there is a depressing tendency on the part of some to try to deride reasonable enforcement of the law, preferring instead to make arguments about enforcement that are actually intended to undermine the effect of a law that they disagree with. Talking of which:
Possibly. But, assuming you're referring to the delay in hearing Simon Dolan's appeal against the rejection of his case for judicial review, if the government's behaviour in this litigation were so unreasonable, the judge had it in their power to refuse the government's request. Gamesmanship, for good or ill, is part of lawyers' armoury.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==


Most?
Yes, most. I see them in public transport, in the grocery store, just everywhere!
 

DustyBin

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Face masks work*. The studies prove it.

(when proper medical facemasks are worn and removed properly, in a properly controlled environment, properly disposed of after use, with proper hand hygiene, not touching, lifting, or dropping the mask whilst it’s being worn, and covering the nose and mouth properly.)

Exactly.
 

MikeWM

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Recently we had the Queen under criticism for not wearing a mask.

This week it is the Pope!

Last week, Thomas Reese, a Jesuit priest and journalist, wrote a frank open letter to Francis, saying “you should know better” and setting out six reasons why the pope should wear a mask.

...

Reese appealed to supporters of the pope “to give you a bad time until you regularly wear a mask”, leaving messages on Twitter and writing letters to the Vatican.


It does seem some people - the wretched Guardian in particular - are only going to be happy when everyone is wearing a mask, everywhere, and forever. I've still not quite worked out why.
 

DB

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Recently we had the Queen under criticism for not wearing a mask.

This week it is the Pope!
It does seem some people - the wretched Guardian in particular - are only going to be happy when everyone is wearing a mask, everywhere, and forever. I've still not quite worked out why.

Surely his god will protect him?

Presumably his god created this virus, because as we know he created 'all creatures great and small'. Strangely, the churches don't seem to have made any comment on this.
 

kristiang85

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It does seem some people - the wretched Guardian in particular - is only going to be happy when everyone is wearing a mask, everywhere, and forever. I've still not quite worked out why.

I've stopped reading the Guardian now, they seem to be completely losing sense of reality (or at least, more than they did anyway!). It just winds me up.

On the mask topic, this was an interesting article on Unherd I saw today. It's worth reading the whole thing (it predominantly comes from the US perspective), but I've pasted the UK-centric section below, which shows the difference in opinions now as compared to the beginning of the pandemic (and showing how much that has changed despite no real evidence): https://unherd.com/2020/10/how-the-experts-messed-up-on-covid/

In the UK, the public health community embraced the anti-mask message more strongly than most. For example, in care homes, where around half of the UK’s Covid deaths have occurred, staff were informed by the government in February that “face masks do not provide protection from respiratory viruses such as Covid-19 and do not need to be worn by staff” (incidentally, the following statement from the same document — “t remains very unlikely that people receiving care in a care home or the community will be infected” — stands as one of the most tragic of the entire pandemic).

On 4 March, Chief Medical Officer Chris Whitty argued masks would reduce the risks of the non-infected “almost not at all” and said he would not advise wearing them. The medical website patient.info noted that its readers might see people wearing masks out and about. “Don’t worry if you haven’t bought one”, they wrote. “The masks are fairly ineffective for the average person. Only people caring for infected people and the infected people themselves needs [sic] to wear masks.” Even volunteer sewing groups were asked to make morale-boosting patterned scrubs for NHS staff instead of using their skills to boost the mask supply.

The anti-mask campaign soon escalated beyond messaging. In early March, two businesses selling facemasks were banned from producing adverts that claimed their products offered protection from “viruses, bacteria, and other air pollutants”. The adverts, it was said, were “likely to cause fear”. This was on the advice of Public Health England, who didn’t just not recommend masks, but claimed they might raise the risk of transmission, since they were “likely to reduce compliance with good universal hygiene behaviours”. Professor Stephen Powis, the National Medical Director of NHS England, said that the firms selling facemasks who linked their product to the pandemic were “callous” and “outright dangerous”, and that advertising masks in this way had “rightly been banned”.

The campaign to keep British faces uncovered culminated in a video released by the UK Government on 11 March, where the Deputy Chief Medical Officer, Jenny Harries, told the Prime Minister in no uncertain terms that wearing a facemask was “not a good idea and doesn’t help”.

From the vantage point of mid-October, this seems more than a little odd. Masks are now mandated on public transport and in shops, are worn prominently in public by politicians and their public health advisers, and have become a normal part of life. The US Surgeon general who had so vehemently decried the buying of masks on Twitter now has a picture of himself wearing one at the top of his page. Once again, the issue was not necessarily that the original messaging was wrong — as we stated above, the evidence was patchy, and decisions still have to be made.
 

MikeWM

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Surely his god will protect him?

I fear you will find remarkably little faith in most of the rank and file of the Catholic church. I don't think most of them actually believe in most of the things they claim to.

My mother is a fairly devout Catholic - and she is utterly disgusted by the behaviour of the Church this year. (As a 'former' Catholic, I entirely agree).
 

farleigh

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My son is in a bubble with the ~180 pupils in his year, who are permitted to mix freely but kept apart from others. If your school has not clarified the arrangements for you and other staff, I would be rather concerned.
They have clarified it.

I am not worried at all and we have just completed the whole term and nobody has been reported as having caught Covid. That is 1620 people in an effective bubble and not one Covid case. It feels as if we have been completely safe not wearing any face coverings. Good news IMO
 

island

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There was a BTP mask shakedown at Sevenoaks this morning. They quite properly ignored passengers stood on the open air platform and focused on challenging passengers on board trains waiting to depart.
 

Mag_seven

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This article here describes what it utterly wrong with mandated face mask wearing - the idea that they make you "safe":


"As soon as someone walks through the store without a mask or a lanyard showing they're exempt, it automatically makes me uneasy."
Arron's worked at a supermarket in Wrexham for seven years. He loves his job, his colleagues and his regular customers.
But he's looking for new work now because of shoppers who don't wear face masks
.
 

big_rig

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Three cheers for Liv, the other supermarket worker quoted though - a much more mature and level-headed approach! Good on her.
 

MikeWM

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There was a similar article in yesterday's Guardian. I really have to stop looking at the Guardian; I could probably stop taking blood pressure pills if I did...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/25/restaurant-covid-customers-enforcing-rules
In the restaurant where I work, Covid has brought out the worst in customers
Normally I love working with people, but it’s no fun when they blame me for enforcing the rules that help keep us all safe

...

Then there’s making sure people are wearing their masks to keep each other and staff like me safe. You’d think we were taking away people’s right to vote by asking them to pop a piece of cloth over their face while they nip to the toilet.

The rest of the article isn't a great deal better argued, unfortunately.
 

DB

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There was a similar article in yesterday's Guardian. I really have to stop looking at the Guardian; I could probably stop taking blood pressure pills if I did...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/25/restaurant-covid-customers-enforcing-rules


The rest of the article isn't a great deal better argued, unfortunately.

The government has achieved its aim - many people are now unquestioningly accepting that masks keep them 'safe'.

I gave up on the Guardian a while ago - it's simply too irritating and alarmist now.
 

MikeWM

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The government has achieved its aim - many people are now unquestioningly accepting that masks keep them 'safe'.

Indeed. But in this case, only when standing up. Obviously there are no safety issues when people are sitting at a table!

I gave up on the Guardian a while ago - it's simply too irritating and alarmist now.

I gave up a while ago too, though apparently not very well, as I still look at it occasionally. I really must get out of that distressing habit.
 

SJN

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I wonder how Arron felt during March-June when very few people were wearing masks and the level of infection and deaths was a lot higher. They don’t make me feel any safer, maybe because I’ve never felt particularly unsafe anyway.
 

DB

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I wonder how Arron felt during March-June when very few people were wearing masks and the level of infection and deaths was a lot higher. They don’t make me feel any safer, maybe because I’ve never felt particularly unsafe anyway.

It's Project Fear in action - these people didn't feel unsafe until the government told them that they should do!
 

Dave91131

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Three cheers for Liv, the other supermarket worker quoted though - a much more mature and level-headed approach! Good on her.

Seconded.

Perhaps Arron should consider his position of employment, or at the very least enquire about alternative roles within the company which do not involve as much contact / interaction with customers, if he feels so vulnerable / uneasy / on edge about encountering individuals who have genuine reasons not to cover their faces.
 

VauxhallandI

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This article here describes what it utterly wrong with mandated face mask wearing - the idea that they make you "safe":


.
I fear Arron isn't the brightest button.

In the real world I have just come off the phone with my Mother. My Uncle fell last night and broke his hip; he is 88 and does have the beginnings of Dementia.

When my cousin got to hospital with him they wanted to put him in the Covid ward.

My cousin lost the plot and eventually got him into a normal ward.

Remember when you are banging your pans its not all sweetness and light; sometimes they just want to kill you off. Then you can be added to the died of Covid numbers.....

I'm livid; of course his wife can't visit and it seems a lifetime of paying in means they ship you off to die.

Next time you see someone kicking off in a hospital remember they aren't always scummers.
 

DustyBin

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I fear Arron isn't the brightest button.

In the real world I have just come off the phone with my Mother. My Uncle fell last night and broke his hip; he is 88 and does have the beginnings of Dementia.

When my cousin got to hospital with him they wanted to put him in the Covid ward.

My cousin lost the plot and eventually got him into a normal ward.

Remember when you are banging your pans its not all sweetness and light; sometimes they just want to kill you off. Then you can be added to the died of Covid numbers.....

I'm livid; of course his wife can't visit and it seems a lifetime of paying in means they ship you off to die.

Next time you see someone kicking off in a hospital remember they aren't always scummers.

I'm sorry to hear this, I hope the situation works out as well as these things ever can.

What's interesting though is that this isn't the first instance I've read of where somebody with no Covid symptoms has been sent to a Covid ward, albeit your cousin was successful in preventing it. It does beg the question, what on earth is going on?
 

A Challenge

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What's interesting though is that this isn't the first instance I've read of where somebody with no Covid symptoms has been sent to a Covid ward, albeit your cousin was successful in preventing it. It does beg the question, what on earth is going on?
Given I thought that that many people who had it in hospital got it while hospitalised, that is worrying, especially in this case with an elderly patient.
 

kristiang85

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They need to write to their MP or something to put that on record. That is outrageous.
 

Dave91131

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A handful of 65+ age people that I've encountered in the course of work over the last few months have made comments along the lines of "the government will use this to have a good clear out of us old farts that burden the NHS".
 
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