Ideas for North Wales timetable if Bangor-Caernarfon reopened?

[Bletchleyite]

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Bangor-Caernarfon would potentially be profitable, I reckon, certainly in tourist season. It almost beggars belief that it hasn't been reopened.

It would do far more trade than Bangor-Holyhead does now most foot passengers fly instead of using ferries.

I think there'd even be a potential case for diverting the Avantis there.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Bangor-Caernarfon would potentially be profitable, I reckon, certainly in tourist season. It almost beggars belief that it hasn't been reopened. It would do far more trade than Bangor-Holyhead does now most foot passengers fly instead of using ferries.

I think there'd even be a potential case for diverting the Avantis there.

I can't see why they have a through service to Caernarfon/Porthmadog from Amlwch but not from anywhere east of Bangor; and no increase from 0.5tph on the Cambrian Coast. Based on the long-term aspiration for 5tph off-peak (6tph peak) between Chester and Llandudno Junction and 5tph between Llandudno Junction and Bangor, I'd suggest something more like:

• 2tph Chester* - Llandudno (all stops), plus a 3rd train per hour in the peaks
• 1tph Chester* - Holyhead (all existing stations)
• 1tph Chester* - Holyhead (calling at Flint, Rhyl, Llandudno Junction and Bangor only)
• 0.5tph Chester* - Caernarfon/Porthmadog (calling at Flint, Preastatyn, Rhyl, Colwyn Bay, Llandudno Junction, Bangor and Y Felinheli)
• 0.5tph Chester* - Caernarfon/Porthmadog (calling at Shotton, Flint, Preastatyn, Rhyl, Colwyn Bay, Llandudno Junction, Conwy, Bangor and Y Felinheli)
• 1tph Holyhead - Llandudno (all stops)
• 1tph Amlwch - Llandudno (all stops)
• 0.5tph Amlwch - Caernarfon/Porthmadog (all stops)
• 0.5tph Amlwch - Caernarfon/Pwllheli (all stops)
• 0.5tph Pwllheli - Birmingham International (all stops west of Shrewsbury)
• 0.5tph Bangor/Porthmadog - Newtown (limited stop via Cambrian Coast, and possibly extended to Birmingham International, Wrexham General (via Oswestry) or Brecon (via Mid Wales Line))

* All services to/from Chester would start back from elsewhere, I'd suggest 1tph Liverpool (calling points as now, plus Frodsham and Helsby if any current services omit them), 2tph Manchester (one all-stops west of Newton-Le-Willows as-now, the other calling at Warrington Bank Quay only) and 2tph from Crewe (with one starting back from Birmingham, perhaps itself starting back from London post-HS2) with the peak-extra being the existing second slow Manchester. Three times per day (each way) the fast Holyhead path would run to/from Cardiff instead of Crewe/Manchester, providing Breakfast, Lunch and Dinner 'WAG Expresses'.

 

[Llandudno]

Bangor-Caernarfon would potentially be profitable, I reckon, certainly in tourist season. It almost beggars belief that it hasn't been reopened. It would do far more trade than Bangor-Holyhead does now most foot passengers fly instead of using ferries.

I think there'd even be a potential case for diverting the Avantis there.

Certainly those that don’t connect with ferries!

 

[A0]

Bangor-Caernarfon would potentially be profitable, I reckon, certainly in tourist season.

I bet it wouldn't be. There's little evidence that seasonal lines are profitable even at high season.

 

[Andrew*Debbie]

Bangor-Caernarfon would potentially be profitable, I reckon, certainly in tourist season. It almost beggars belief that it hasn't been reopened.

Where the line used to split off towards Caerarfon is still visible. It is just past the Menai Bridge sort of opposite Traborth Gardens.

Is there still a clear right of way through Parc Menai? It looks to me like there is a building where the track used to go.


Beyond that there is road, cycle path and foot path where the track used to be. ?? I think. I moved to North Wales in 2007, so I'm not exactly sure where the track used to be.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Oct 2020 ==

There is so much to digest on that diagram --> https://gov.wales/sites/default/fil...07/north-wales-main-line-rail-network-map.pdf


Short term aspirations - in green.

Hollyhead - Llandudno calling at all request stops 1tph. I live in walking distance of Llanfairpwll station. That alone makes such a difference to me. I could use the train to commute, go shopping in Llandudno and should open up more connections at Bangor and Llandudno Junction.


If this is in addition to the Hollyhead - Chester 1tph, it would mean 2tph for me. Holyhead - Chester 1tph service would also restore work time commuter trains Between Bangor and anything east of LLandudno Junction. That train was lost when they removed stops to speed up Holyhead Cardiff at the expense of local commuters.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Oct 2020 ==

And then there is this little gem hiding at the bottom behind a *

Holyhead to London Euston service currently operated by Avanti
West Coast (7tpd to Bangor, 6tpd to Holyhead). Aspiration for
regular 1tph frequency to Bangor and 0.5tph to Holyhead and to
operate HS2 HS2-compatible services on the NWML.


Anyone care to guess how much that would cost? With Avanti getting bi-mode trains, I can see that being a very hard sell.

 

[Llandudno]

Where the line used to split off towards Caerarfon is still visible. It is just past the Menai Bridge sort of opposite Traborth Gardens.

Is there still a clear right of way through Parc Menai? It looks to me like there is a building where the track used to go.


Beyond that there is road, cycle path and foot path where the track used to be. ?? I think. I moved to North Wales in 2007, so I'm not exactly sure where the track used to be.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Oct 2020 ==

There is so much to digest on that diagram --> https://gov.wales/sites/default/fil...07/north-wales-main-line-rail-network-map.pdf


Short term aspirations - in green.

Hollyhead - Llandudno calling at all request stops 1tph. I live in walking distance of Llanfairpwll station. That alone makes such a difference to me. I could use the train to commute, go shopping in Llandudno and should open up more connections at Bangor and Llandudno Junction.


If this is in addition to the Hollyhead - Chester 1tph, it would mean 2tph for me. Holyhead - Chester 1tph service would also restore work time commuter trains Between Bangor and anything east of LLandudno Junction. That train was lost when they removed stops to speed up Holyhead Cardiff at the expense of local commuters.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 25 Oct 2020 ==

And then there is this little gem hiding at the bottom behind a *

Holyhead to London Euston service currently operated by Avanti
West Coast (7tpd to Bangor, 6tpd to Holyhead). Aspiration for
regular 1tph frequency to Bangor and 0.5tph to Holyhead and to
operate HS2 HS2-compatible services on the NWML.


Anyone care to guess how much that would cost? With Avanti getting bi-mode trains, I can see that being a very hard sell.

And will never happen....!

 

[Rhydgaled]

There is so much to digest on that diagram --> https://gov.wales/sites/default/fil...07/north-wales-main-line-rail-network-map.pdf

--------------------------------------
And then there is this little gem hiding at the bottom behind a *

Holyhead to London Euston service currently operated by Avanti
West Coast (7tpd to Bangor, 6tpd to Holyhead). Aspiration for
regular 1tph frequency to Bangor and 0.5tph to Holyhead and to
operate HS2 HS2-compatible services on the NWML.

Anyone care to guess how much that would cost? With Avanti getting bi-mode trains, I can see that being a very hard sell.

Rolling stock decisions for both Avanti and TfW both appear to have been made with 'short term thinking' while the Welsh Government map you linked to is mostly populated with medium-long term thinking. Unfortunately, the two are not very compatible. However, if you use medium-long term thinking to plan the future of what is currently the XC franchise you could cascade Avanti's bi-modes to XC if/when the north Wales coast line is electrified (and don't forget that Network Rail has recommended that it should be electrified).

The bigger question is what you do when HS2 services between Euston and Crewe have launched. Even if HS2 reaches Euston before phase 2a to Crewe opens, I'm assuming it will be faster to change at Crewe than stay on the through Voyager/805 to Euston. In my mind it will then be pointless to continue running through services to Euston from Chester / North Wales via the classic WCML Trent Valley Line. Either HS2 services should run to Chester (with one every two hours extended through to Holyhead) or the current London trains from Chester/Holyhead should be replaced by services to Birmingham via Crewe and Stafford (which could continue through to Euston for anyone who doesn't want to change onto HS2 at Crewe).