Could stations in Manchester receive a better service?

[Daniel740]

I'm sure it used to be much more frequent than that (4bph?) - maybe people are putting up with the slow tram ride because it's nicer than a bus?

It’s been every 30 minutes Mon-Sat Daytime, hourly evenings and Sundays for a good few years now

 

[tbtc]

Can't blame GMPTE/TfGM for wanting to convert routes to Metrolink, since there are a number of stations in Greater Manchester that don't get a good enough service because they are on longer distance lines (or have longer distance services on them).

And it's not just that there are long distance services but the variety of long distance services (which means that the timings are really badly spaced)

The stations on the Airport branch should surely be able to sustain a balanced four trains per hour (or more frequent tram service), but local passengers are less important than the Airport passengers, so the "local" service has been replaced with fairly unbalanced timings.

Same goes for Eccles - ought to warrant a much better service into Manchester but the varied combination of services from Scotland/ Wales/ Merseyside means that there's no space for a local service.

Instead of complaining that Greater Manchester's representatives want to convert "everything" to Metrolink (always an exaggeration), we should understand why they feel that way and why it must be frustrating to wait for just an hourly service on a route that has several longer distance trains per hour whizzing along (when you can take control over a route like Oldham and flood it with as many services per hour as you want).

 

[Sweetjesus]

I'm sure it used to be much more frequent than that (4bph?) - maybe people are putting up with the slow tram ride because it's nicer than a bus?

No, it was because of the roadworks making the direct bus route slower than indirect tram ride.

The bus operator then reduced the service due to lower passenger numbers.

This pushed more passengers into using a tram cause they didn't to wait too long for a bus.

Now the roadworks are gone, the passengers haven't gone back.

 

[Efini92]

Given how Metrolink offers a superior service at a lower operating cost, why does that surprise you?

Look how much has been invested in metrolink over the last 10 years. Manchester’s railways haven’t seen that much investment in 40 years.

 

[HSTEd]

The stations on the Airport branch should surely be able to sustain a balanced four trains per hour (or more frequent tram service), but local passengers are less important than the Airport passengers, so the "local" service has been replaced with fairly unbalanced timings.

Well the airport line could become a defacto metro by just having the airport trains stop all shacks.

The convenience of the one seat ride to the airport is what sells it, not that its a few minutes faster.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Look how much has been invested in metrolink over the last 10 years. Manchester’s railways haven’t seen that much investment in 40 years.

The thing about Metrolink is that it doesn't (unless something has changed) require an operating subsidy, whereas local heavy rail does. So for your large capital investment you get something that makes a profit long-term.

 

[Efini92]

Can't blame GMPTE/TfGM for wanting to convert routes to Metrolink, since there are a number of stations in Greater Manchester that don't get a good enough service because they are on longer distance lines (or have longer distance services on them).

And it's not just that there are long distance services but the variety of long distance services (which means that the timings are really badly spaced)

The stations on the Airport branch should surely be able to sustain a balanced four trains per hour (or more frequent tram service), but local passengers are less important than the Airport passengers, so the "local" service has been replaced with fairly unbalanced timings.

Same goes for Eccles - ought to warrant a much better service into Manchester but the varied combination of services from Scotland/ Wales/ Merseyside means that there's no space for a local service.

Instead of complaining that Greater Manchester's representatives want to convert "everything" to Metrolink (always an exaggeration), we should understand why they feel that way and why it must be frustrating to wait for just an hourly service on a route that has several longer distance trains per hour whizzing along (when you can take control over a route like Oldham and flood it with as many services per hour as you want).

What about when Moston went down to 1 service per hour in 2016. That was the PTE not Northern.

The service might be a lot more frequent from Oldham but I much preferred it when a semi fast train could get me into Manchester in 10 minutes.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Oct 2020 ==

The thing about Metrolink is that it doesn't (unless something has changed) require an operating subsidy, whereas local heavy rail does. So for your large capital investment you get something that makes a profit long-term.

I thought metrolink was subsidised by TfGM.
I always thought at least part of all public transport is subsidised in greater Manchester.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I thought metrolink was subsidised by TfGM.
I always thought at least part of all public transport is subsidised in greater Manchester.

TfGM pays for the infrastructure, but unless something has changed very recently Metrolink makes a (small) operating surplus. So it sits in a similar business model to buses, in a way.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

As hinted at above if you want a stopping service and as fast service you need four tracks. Two tracks gives you one but not both, or put differently a bad stopping service and a bad fast service.

 

[Efini92]

TfGM pays for the infrastructure, but unless something has changed very recently Metrolink makes a (small) operating surplus. So it sits in a similar business model to buses, in a way.

Apologies I thought some of the late/night early morning stuff was subsidised.

Personally I’m against the whole transport system we have in Greater Manchester. In my opinion we need one big company controlling everything like when the Lancashire and Yorkshire railway were in charge.

 

[Llandudno]

Given how Metrolink offers a superior service at a lower operating cost, why does that surprise you?

There is also every chance that Metrolink will turn up, whereas waiting for an hourly Northern train is like playing Russian roulette!

 

[peters]

The thing about Metrolink is that it doesn't (unless something has changed) require an operating subsidy, whereas local heavy rail does. So for your large capital investment you get something that makes a profit long-term.

It has. Metrolink needed a £11.6m taxpayer bailout to keep trams running from mid-March to the start of June: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-52513728

From what I understand Keolis/Amey have a contract to provide Metrolink services but the trams and infrastructure have been provided for them using grants, so it's only really the cost of running, maintenance and staffing costs which need to be covered, no wonder it's usually 'profitable.'

 

[Purple Orange]

It has. Metrolink needed a £11.6m taxpayer bailout to keep trams running from mid-March to the start of June: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-52513728

From what I understand Keolis/Amey have a contract to provide Metrolink services but the trams and infrastructure have been provided for them using grants, so it's only really the cost of running, maintenance and staffing costs which need to be covered, no wonder it's usually 'profitable.'

A bailout as a result of a loss of passengers due to the pandemic is very different to requiring on going subsidy to operate during normal times.

The answer to better commuter rail services in Greater Manchester is Metrolink. On the heavy rail side, the answer is NPR and HS2. This enables the Styal line to run purely all-stop services and additional stoppers on the Crewe, Stoke and Buxton lines.

 

[peters]

A bailout as a result of a loss of passengers due to the pandemic is very different to requiring on going subsidy to operate during normal times.

Yes. Although, the fact Metrolink and light rail systems in other cities needed a bailout, while some bus routes continued to run without a subsidy albeit to a reduced frequency, suggests Metrolink and light rail will struggle more long term if working from home continues post-pandemic.

 

[CJ]

Can't blame GMPTE/TfGM for wanting to convert routes to Metrolink, since there are a number of stations in Greater Manchester that don't get a good enough service because they are on longer distance lines (or have longer distance services on them).

And it's not just that there are long distance services but the variety of long distance services (which means that the timings are really badly spaced)

The stations on the Airport branch should surely be able to sustain a balanced four trains per hour (or more frequent tram service), but local passengers are less important than the Airport passengers, so the "local" service has been replaced with fairly unbalanced timings.

Same goes for Eccles - ought to warrant a much better service into Manchester but the varied combination of services from Scotland/ Wales/ Merseyside means that there's no space for a local service.

Instead of complaining that Greater Manchester's representatives want to convert "everything" to Metrolink (always an exaggeration), we should understand why they feel that way and why it must be frustrating to wait for just an hourly service on a route that has several longer distance trains per hour whizzing along (when you can take control over a route like Oldham and flood it with as many services per hour as you want).

As someone who lives quite close by to the Styal route, it is indeed a shame that services on this line have been made worse post-2018 timetable change.

pre-2018, it had regular (and well timed) 30 minute all-stop services and a useful Picc-Airport shuttle service.

Now, services are like XX:00, XX:15 and then a 45 minute gap (with one service being skip-stopping).

It's really bad, especially if one of these services is cancelled, then you have to wait even longer!

And peak time services have been heavilly reduced also, which has made commuting (not so much now) not very useful.

I'm hoping that this can be improved in the 2021 timetable (but remain doubtful).

 

[daodao]

As someone who lives quite close by to the Styal route, it is indeed a shame that services on this line have been made worse post-2018 timetable change.

pre-2018, it had regular (and well timed) 30 minute all-stop services and a useful Picc-Airport shuttle service.

Now, services are like XX:00, XX:15 and then a 45 minute gap (with one service being skip-stopping).

It's really bad, especially if one of these services is cancelled, then you have to wait even longer!

And peak time services have been heavilly reduced also, which has made commuting (not so much now) not very useful.

I'm hoping that this can be improved in the 2021 timetable (but remain doubtful).

The solution to the Heald Green line service provision is to kick off TPE and TfW from it.
The solution to the CLC Warrington line is to electrify it and enable a more frequent stopping service without delaying fast trains, due to the better acceleration of emus cf dmus.

 

[Daniel740]

The solution to the Heald Green line service provision is to kick off TPE and TfW from it.
The solution to the CLC Warrington line is to electrify it and enable a more frequent stopping service without delaying fast trains, due to the better acceleration of emus cf dmus.

I agree. There’s a weird obsession in this country about not having to change trains. It’s not just the line to Manchester Airport, does there really have to be a direct service from Liverpool to Norwich?

 

[daodao]

That would be the case apart from the fact the 33 only runs every 30/60 minutes. Why there isn’t a more frequent service along Eccles New Road god only knows....

Arriva route 10 provides a more frequent bus service (every 12 minutes Mons-Sat daytime) from Manchester to Eccles, and it passes both Victoria station and Hope Hospital.

 

[Daniel740]

Arriva route 10 provides a more frequent bus service (every 12 minutes Mons-Sat daytime) from Manchester to Eccles, and it passes both Victoria station and Hope Hospital.

It’s not exactly a direct route though is it? Plus it goes through some less than salubrious areas.

 

[Purple Orange]

Yes. Although, the fact Metrolink and light rail systems in other cities needed a bailout, while some bus routes continued to run without a subsidy albeit to a reduced frequency, suggests Metrolink and light rail will struggle more long term if working from home continues post-pandemic.

It will struggle if passenger volumes drop right off and remains low. However that is unlikely.

I agree. There’s a weird obsession in this country about not having to change trains. It’s not just the line to Manchester Airport, does there really have to be a direct service from Liverpool to Norwich?

Ive always found the Liverpool-Norwich service to be odd pairings, but like Cross Country, it is knitting together three or four routes together. I’d sooner see the national network designed a bit more like a metro network, with high capacity corridors. Hopefully HS2 can facilitate this, but I suspect the mob who complain “oh but how do people from Derby get to Exeter” will get their way and small volume journeys will be protected at the expense of the journeys the majority of passengers from these towns want to make.

 

[158756]

It’s not exactly a direct route though is it? Plus it goes through some less than salubrious areas.

If you're starting from Victoria/Shudehill the 33/10/Go North West's 67&100 are all supposed to take roughly the same time to Eccles. As for going through less salubrious areas, how many routes in Manchester don't?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I agree. There’s a weird obsession in this country about not having to change trains. It’s not just the line to Manchester Airport, does there really have to be a direct service from Liverpool to Norwich?

If you're going to provide an express service on the CLC you need to send it somewhere due to the lack of west-facing terminal capacity in Manchester. (It can't go to Vic without building another giant white elephant criss-crossing Castlefield, and in any case Vic only has 4 west facing platforms and is already getting full).

 

[Efini92]

If you're going to provide an express service on the CLC you need to send it somewhere due to the lack of west-facing terminal capacity in Manchester. (It can't go to Vic without building another giant white elephant criss-crossing Castlefield, and in any case Vic only has 4 west facing platforms and is already getting full).

If only we had a terminal station near Deansgate...

 

[Senex]

I agree. There’s a weird obsession in this country about not having to change trains. It’s not just the line to Manchester Airport, does there really have to be a direct service from Liverpool to Norwich?

Why is it a weird obsession? Too many of us have far too many experiences either of missed "connections" or spending a significant portionof the first part of the journey on tenterhooks as to whether we were going to make it. And then you have stations very ill laid for connections, both because of actual design and because of operating practice. Far better wait for the occasional through train than face the fuss of the connection. Now if it were a Swiss or Dutch set-up, or even the way DN IC connections operate, one might be able to have a little more confidence.

 

[Purple Orange]

Why is it a weird obsession? Too many of us have far too many experiences either of missed "connections" or spending a significant portionof the first part of the journey on tenterhooks as to whether we were going to make it. And then you have stations very ill laid for connections, both because of actual design and because of operating practice. Far better wait for the occasional through train than face the fuss of the connection. Now if it were a Swiss or Dutch set-up, or even the way DN IC connections operate, one might be able to have a little more confidence.

The issue of missed connections wouldn’t be a problem if there was a turn-up-and-go timetable on the network. 3 tph can give that sense. “Oh ****, I’ve missed the train. Never mind there is another one in 10-15 mins”. On our intercity corridors, it is is possible to achieve that. The issue is also being encouraged to buy specified ticket for certain trains. The best way to travel by train is with an open return and that is wha5 needs to be priced appropriately.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If only we had a terminal station near Deansgate...

I bet they regret that one

But in all seriousness Central isn't very well connected other than to the tram. More useful would be west-facing bays or more through platforms at Picc or Vic. With the former that probably means 15/16, really. With the latter, there is actually space for 3 or 4 bays to the north of the present platforms, butting up against the Arena, and there is a viaduct leading to them, too (you can see it on a Google aerial view). I wonder if these would be cheaper than 15/16? Obviously you couldn't send CLC services that way, but you could send something else there to free up space on Castlefield.

 

[daodao]

I bet they regret that one
But in all seriousness Central isn't very well connected other than to the tram. More useful would be west-facing bays or more through platforms at Picc or Vic. With the former that probably means 15/16, really. With the latter, there is actually space for 3 or 4 bays to the north of the present platforms, butting up against the Arena, and there is a viaduct leading to them, too (you can see it on a Google aerial view). I wonder if these would be cheaper than 15/16? Obviously you couldn't send CLC services that way, but you could send something else there to free up space on Castlefield.

Services that should be removed from the Castlefield corridor and call/terminate at Victoria include all trains from Chester and beyond via Warrington BQ, all trains from Southport, and all trains from Lancaster and points north. The Ordsall curve should not be used by TPE trains from Huddersfield and beyond as these trains (which do not extend westwards) can reach Piccadilly via Guide Bridge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Services that should be removed from the Castlefield corridor and call/terminate at Victoria include all trains from Chester and beyond via Warrington BQ, all trains from Southport, and all trains from Lancaster and points north. The Ordsall curve should not be used by TPE trains from Huddersfield and beyond as they can reach Piccadilly via Guide Bridge.

To do that you'd need to build those terminal platforms at Vic, though. Remember it only has 4 platforms accessible from the west.

 

[daodao]

To do that you'd need to build those terminal platforms at Vic, though. Remember it only has 4 platforms accessible from the west.

A proposal with which I agree.

 

[Efini92]

Once the new arena is built at eastlands they should demolish the current one and give Victoria its platform space back.

All the Warrington/north Wales services should be routed back through Victoria as should the lime st stoppers.

Salford Central should also have its platforms on the Chat Moss lines reopened.