TPE North West to Edinburgh

[Philip]

I was wondering if it may be better if TPE run all of their North West services into Edinburgh to make an hourly interval from Manchester (on the quick route)?

Before the pandemic, it did look like the Edinburgh services were a lot busier than the Glasgow ones when leaving Manchester - particularly the 10:××, 16:×× and 18:×× departures, so would an hourly service to Edinburgh provide better use of the rolling stock and ease overcrowding than the current bi-hourly split between the two cities? There is a bigger market for rail travel between Manchester and Edinburgh than between Manchester and Glasgow and besides, Glasgow is already well served on the WCML by Avanti.

If a skeleton direct service between Manchester and Glasgow must be retained, then the unnecessary North East extension to Berwick and Edinburgh could be curtailed at York or Newcastle; this would free up a couple of 802s to run a total of 3 or 4 direct trains each way between Manchester Airport and Glasgow. So as not to put any extra trains through Castlefield and Bolton, these additional Glasgows could run on the Barrow/Windermere path, calling at Wigan NW via Chat Moss. There shouldn't be much problem in dropping 3-4 direct Barrow services, as these can start from Lancaster (in turn freeing up a few 195s for Northern to use elsewhere).

 

[Purple Orange]

It would be silly to get rid of a connection to Glasgow on the basis that people do use it. However on the ECML issue, the principal reason for extending to Edinburgh is not theLiverpool or Manchester market, but the Leeds and Newcastle market. The fact that the train started in Liverpool and has called at Manchester is irrellivant. Plus the benefit of the ECML route is that at certain times of the hour and at what side of Manchester you're starting your journey, the ECML route will be faster than hanging around Manchester for a WCML train.

 

[Philip]

It would be silly to get rid of a connection to Glasgow on the basis that people do use it. However on the ECML issue, the principal reason for extending to Edinburgh is not theLiverpool or Manchester market, but the Leeds and Newcastle market. The fact that the train started in Liverpool and has called at Manchester is irrellivant. Plus the benefit of the ECML route is that at certain times of the hour and at what side of Manchester you're starting your journey, the ECML route will be faster than hanging around Manchester for a WCML train.

Leeds already has Edinburgh services through East Coast. Northern and East Coast could surely cover Newcastle-Edinburgh between them, if they don't already?

I know people use the Manchester-Glasgow service, but the point is a lot more people use the alternate Edinburgh service and so should this be given the priority of an hourly service? Also bare in mind there were well filled 8-coach 350s on the Edinburgh run up until last year, now only 5-coach 397s.

 

[The Planner]

There is a bigger market for rail travel between Manchester and Edinburgh than between Manchester and Glasgow and besides, Glasgow is already well served on the WCML by Avanti.

Based on what evidence?

If a skeleton direct service between Manchester and Glasgow must be retained, then the unnecessary North East extension to Berwick and Edinburgh could be curtailed at York or Newcastle; this would free up a couple of 802s to run a total of 3 or 4 direct trains each way between Manchester Airport and Glasgow. So as not to put any extra trains through Castlefield and Bolton, these additional Glasgows could run on the Barrow/Windermere path, calling at Wigan NW via Chat Moss. There shouldn't be much problem in dropping 3-4 direct Barrow services, as these can start from Lancaster (in turn freeing up a few 195s for Northern to use elsewhere).

No good for the passenger though from Preston onwards, the Barrow service is about 8 or 9 minutes apart from an Avanti. The gap is 20 minutes or so currently with Avanti and TPE.

 

[Philip]

Based on what evidence?

No good for the passenger though from Preston onwards, the Barrow service is about 8 or 9 minutes apart from an Avanti. The gap is 20 minutes or so currently with Avanti and TPE.

I think you know full well that the market is bigger to the capital both for business and tourism reasons. And as I say, take the evening departures from Manchester...17:×× departure to Glasgow was a quieter train than the Edinburgh services either side. This is also reflected by the fact that TPE generally saved doubling up for their Edinburgh services; the Glasgows were mainly single 185s/350s.

As I say a Lancaster-Barrow shuttle would suffice in the hours where TPE run a Glasgow service in the Cumbria path. Preston or Manchester to Barrow direct isn't a big market.

 

[swt_passenger]

Leeds already has Edinburgh services through East Coast. Northern and East Coast could surely cover Newcastle-Edinburgh between them, if they don't already?

ECML (ie LNER) Leeds to Edinburgh is only a token service in marginal time, one per day each way? XC run far more services.
Northern do not run longer distance ECML services, most of their ECML services in the Newcastle area are limited to the short distance to Morpeth.

 

[YorksLad12]

ECML Leeds to Edinburgh is only a token service in marginal time, one per day each way? XC run far more services.
Northern do not run longer distance ECML services, most of their ECML services in the Newcastle area are limited to the short distance to Morpeth.

Indeed. The 0705 Leeds to Aberdeen is the only direct service in that direction. I think the return runs via Doncaster! Northern don't run between York and Newcastle/Middlesbrough, only the fast services from LNER, XC and TPE do.

 

[Purple Orange]

Leeds already has Edinburgh services through East Coast. Northern and East Coast could surely cover Newcastle-Edinburgh between them, if they don't already?

I know people use the Manchester-Glasgow service, but the point is a lot more people use the alternate Edinburgh service and so should this be given the priority of an hourly service? Also bare in mind there were well filled 8-coach 350s on the Edinburgh run up until last year, now only 5-coach 397s.

Leeds has services to Edinburgh through XC, TPE and LNER (but I’m not sure LNER is a regular hourly service). In essence it’s 2 tph from Leeds to Edinburgh, which seems reasonable. Not just for the flow from Leeds, but for the flow from York, Birmingham, Manchester etc.

With regards to Manchester, ideally there would be 1 tph to Glasgow and 1 tph to Edinburgh via Carlisle and I’d argue it is justified. However that does not mean cutting the ECML route. The Manchester market can sustain 6 fast tph to Leeds, of which 4 go to York, 2 go to Newcastle and 1 to Edinburgh. Each service catering for the needs of the population on that route.

I also agree that the trains should have more carriages. When the recovery happens, I’d like to see a 7 or 8 car 802 or 397. That length of train won’t happen until HS2 and the NPR junctions have been built though.

 

[Bevan Price]

It would require more units, but one solution would be 1 t2ph Manchester to Edinburgh, and
1 tp2h Manchester (5 coach) & Liverpool (5 coach) to Carstairs, splitting there with separate portions for Edinburgh & Glasgow.

(Post-Covid), that would ease some of the overcrowding likely with 5 coach 397s - instead of the pairs of 350s that were once used on some of the busier Edinburgh services.

 

[Purple Orange]

I thought the whole premise was based on the assumption that more trains are needed.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

According to what I can "sort of see" based on the current Covid timetable and then what's loaded in for January 2021, you realistically get the following northbound departures out of Preston in each hour:

Odd hours
xx01 Glasgow Central, ex Liverpool Lime Street
xx06 Edinburgh, ex Manchester Piccadilly.
xx40 Glasgow Central, ex Euston via Trent Valley.
xx54 Edinburgh, ex Euston via Birmingham.

Even hours
xx05 Glasgow Central, ex Manchester Piccadilly.
xx40 Glasgow Central, ex Euston via Trent Valley.
xx54 Glasgow Central, ex Euston via Birmingham.

So, why not just totally rip it up?

You can expect people to be thinking of changing, so why not use the xx40, xx54 and xx05, and make a 'sandwich' of the Edinburgh? That way, you can get off something from the West Midlands onto a Glasgow with ease, and equally jump off something from Warrington, Wigan etc. to Edinburgh. It looks a bit like:

0840 Glasgow, ex Euston via Trent Valley.
0854 Edinburgh, ex Euston via West Midlands.
0901 Edinburgh, ex Liverpool Lime Street.
0906 Glasgow, ex Manchester Piccadilly.
0940 Glasgow, ex Euston via Trent Valley.
0954 Edinburgh, ex Euston via West Midlands.
1006 Glasgow, ex Manchester Piccadilly.

That way, Manchester mob are yield-managed via Newcastle on a two-hourly service, with the other two-hourly path only going to Newcastle. They can still connect easily if needs be off the arrival from Manchester Airport and Piccadilly on the Barrow / Windermere if that is a standard path. That would be a same-platform change at Wigan or Lancaster.

Liverpool to Edinburgh traffic can be moved mostly onto the 397 / 802-operated path, as it frees up any capacity on board for people doing Liverpool - Leeds, Manchester - Newcastle etc.; and should relatively nicely fill and 802 or 397 realistically if only two-hourly.

Not sure how you would path everything northbound in respect of what needs to stop where, but it seems to be relatively worked together now. If the Liverpool - Edinburgh via Preston is two-hourly, it can have some stops in (pathing permitting) at Wavertree and St Helens to see if that can push a bit more people into car off road.

Anyway, that would be me. I'd try and push as much as possible on the West Coast, where the pathing is definitely there, and then that would relieve the ECML somewhat by punching some folk onto XC or LNE stuff north of Edinburgh.

 

[30907]

According to what I can "sort of see" based on the current Covid timetable and then what's loaded in for January 2021, you realistically get the following northbound departures out of Preston in each hour:

Odd hours
xx01 Glasgow Central, ex Liverpool Lime Street
xx06 Edinburgh, ex Manchester Piccadilly.
xx40 Glasgow Central, ex Euston via Trent Valley.
xx54 Edinburgh, ex Euston via Birmingham.

Even hours
xx05 Glasgow Central, ex Manchester Piccadilly.
xx40 Glasgow Central, ex Euston via Trent Valley.
xx54 Glasgow Central, ex Euston via Birmingham.

So, why not just totally rip it up?

You can expect people to be thinking of changing, so why not use the xx40, xx54 and xx05, and make a 'sandwich' of the Edinburgh? That way, you can get off something from the West Midlands onto a Glasgow with ease, and equally jump off something from Warrington, Wigan etc. to Edinburgh. It looks a bit like:

0840 Glasgow, ex Euston via Trent Valley.
0854 Edinburgh, ex Euston via West Midlands.
0901 Edinburgh, ex Liverpool Lime Street.
0906 Glasgow, ex Manchester Piccadilly.
0940 Glasgow, ex Euston via Trent Valley.
0954 Edinburgh, ex Euston via West Midlands.
1006 Glasgow, ex Manchester Piccadilly.

West Mids - Glasgow is too important a flow to lose, and if Manchester-Edinburgh is the bigger of the TPE flows, then sending people via Newcastle is going to overload that route rather than relieve it.
Liverpool-Glasgow is 2x daily not 2-hourly with Edinburgh supposedly catered for via Newcastle, so you would need extra resources from somewhere. That might be in the longer term plan anyway in which case some LIV-EDBs would be sensible.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

West Mids - Glasgow is too important a flow to lose, and if Manchester-Edinburgh is the bigger of the TPE flows, then sending people via Newcastle is going to overload that route rather than relieve it.
Liverpool-Glasgow is 2x daily not 2-hourly with Edinburgh supposedly catered for via Newcastle, so you would need extra resources from somewhere. That might be in the longer term plan anyway in which case some LIV-EDBs would be sensible.

If I was a West Midlander and was able to get a standard hourly service to Edinburgh via Carlisle knowing it’s faster, I’d be happy. If I also knew I would be able to get a Glasgow service with a ~12 minute same platform connection at Carlisle I wouldn’t feel done out, especially as that’s effectively then an hourly service to Glasgow and Edinburgh.