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Bus Manufacturer News & Discussion

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Volvodart

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Unite said it was Karsan, but no search came up with anything about it apart from the Unite statements.
 
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RailUK Forums

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Volvodart

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Robertj21a said:
Have you got a link ?
Click to expand...

Alexander Dennis must ‘come clean’ over opportunistic job cuts and Turkey outsourcing plans
  • Wednesday 19 August 2020
  • Share
Alexander Dennis (ADL), the UK's largest bus and coach builder, must 'come clean' over its opportunistic use of Covid-19 to cut 650 jobs and outsource work to Turkey, Unite, the UK and Ireland’s largest union, said today (Wednesday 19 August 2020).
Unite has discovered that the job cuts were planned before the pandemic and is now calling for government support for ADL to be conditional on keeping jobs in the UK.
Formal consultation over 650 job cuts at Falkirk, Guildford and Scarborough is expected to begin within days.
Unite has discovered that the job cuts are part of a restructure strategy planned and approved by ADL's parent company, the NFI Group, before the health crisis.
The implementation of this strategy, NFI Forward, was announced to investors in North America on 6 August (see notes below), which includes plans to review and potentially close a UK manufacturing site.
Unite has also discovered that ADL plans to outsource a large bus building contract for Berlin to a company in Turkey, despite using the decline in orders to try and justify planned cuts.
Unite has been calling for the prime minister's promised order of 4,000 new low emission buses to be brought forward to help the bus and coach industry to recover from Covid-19, but says any support must now be conditional on ending job cuts, ending outsourcing and committing to the long term future of each site.
Unite national officer for automotive Steve Bush said: "Unite will not allow Covid-19 to be used as cover to cut jobs. It's time ADL come clean and explain exactly what its new 'NFI Forward' strategy means for the future of all three UK sites. It is utterly unacceptable for the NFI Group to announce restructure plans to investors which impact our members and hope we wouldn't notice.
“ADL is clearly not interested in a serious consultation. Unite shop stewards are demanding an immediate halt on planned job cuts, full disclosure of plans to outsource major contracts to Turkey and a commitment to the long term future of each UK site.
“Unite has been worked in good faith to get the bus and coach industry through this health crisis. We are still calling for the government to bring forward it's order of 4,000 new low emission buses, but any public money including new orders, must now be conditional on the company retaining jobs and keeping work in the UK."
ENDS
Notes to editors:
About NFI Forward Strategy:
  • Based on Q2 financial results, the NFI Forward strategy aims to cut costs by up to $75 million.
  • 8-10% cost reductions for UK and North American sites, worth $20 million across manufacturing.
  • A review of UK and North American manufacturing, with a risk of a site closure by 2022.
  • The strategy was proposed to the NFI board before Covid-19 and is not a response to the pandemic.
  • The Group have adjusted earnings (EBIDA) to $144-$155 million and are continuing to pay out dividends.
  • NFI's own forecasts show a recovery for UK bus passenger use, while UK bus companies are anticipated to restart placing orders to renew their fleets in 2021.
  • ADL won a contract for new fleet of double deck buses for Berlin in 2018. The company now plans to outsource this work to Karsan in Turkey.
Further details of the NFI Forward strategy are available here.
Click to expand...

https://unitetheunion.org/news-even...nistic-job-cuts-and-turkey-outsourcing-plans/
 
A

awsnews

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This is an extension of what ADL have been doing for quite some time, the Asian market has been served by final assembly in a plant in China with the chassis assembly having taken place in Singapore. Whilst there was/is a considerable element of ckd (completely knocked down) involved locally sourced content has been increasing. It is unclear if this proposal is more of he same or an attempt to start producing UK market vehicles using this approach.
It is a little old but there is a report by the Hong Kong branch of the iMechE on a visit to the plant in China here
[/URL]
 
G

Goldfish62

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When ADL won the order in early 2016 they stated at the time that the buses would not necessarily all be made in the UK and that they were also looking to expand in Europe and potentially open a factory somewhere in the EU.

Obviously since then we've had the Brexit vote, the change of ownership of ADL and Covid.
 
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jammy36

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Robertj21a said:
Thanks for that. I had assumed that there had been a definitive statement from the company.
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Indeed - that there isn't might suggest that things are not yet set in stone (at least not publicly). Also worth remembering that the Unite statement has a purpose/motive and will be part of their strategy to put pressure on ADL as part of their negotiating tactics to keep the work in Britain. Just because Unite have published the statement doesn't mean this will happen.
 
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Volvodart

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With the tone of all the cost cutting NFI are doing in the NFI Forward plan they published, it sounds about right though.
 
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jammy36

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Volvodart said:
With the tone of all the cost cutting NFI are doing in the NFI Forward plan they published, it sounds about right though.
Click to expand...

Agreed, just think there needs to be an element of due caution given to the Unite statement - it's not a company press release, it's a negotiating strategy.

The other question is whether the short term (and for affected employees very real) pain is justifiable if it helps guarantee the long-term future of ADL. Unite might not be looking at this bigger picture - their concern is saving their members jobs in the here and now.
 
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37114

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As soon we are almost certainly not going to have frictionless trade with the EU it was almost inevitable that the Berlin order would be fulfilled by a factory outside of the UK. ADL and BVG will.have agreed a price and that would have been made on the basis if no tariffs for exporting to the EU so the fact that the bulk of the order would be post Brexit means a tariff will need to be paid if the buses are made in the UK.
 
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MotCO

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37114 said:
As soon we are almost certainly not going to have frictionless trade with the EU it was almost inevitable that the Berlin order would be fulfilled by a factory outside of the UK. ADL and BVG will.have agreed a price and that would have been made on the basis if no tariffs for exporting to the EU so the fact that the bulk of the order would be post Brexit means a tariff will need to be paid if the buses are made in the UK.
Click to expand...

Maybe any formal announcement will wait until the outcome of any Brexit trade deals is known.
 
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py_megapixel

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Frankly I don't think it's at all reasonable to expect that multinational companies will still want to build in the UK for export to the EU post-Brexit. Except for a few exceptional cases, I simply can't see how it could make financial sense compared to building somewhere with comparatively frictionless trade to the EU.
 
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SouthEastBuses

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Goldfish62 said:
When ADL won the order in early 2016 they stated at the time that the buses would not necessarily all be made in the UK and that they were also looking to expand in Europe and potentially open a factory somewhere in the EU.

Obviously since then we've had the Brexit vote, the change of ownership of ADL and Covid.
Click to expand...

Ooh Karsan - never trust their quality.

Reminds me a lot of when IIA (Industria Italiana Autobus) MenariniBus outsourced their Citymoods to be built in Turkey (rather than in Italy as they are supposed to) and many enthusiasts have criticised (and tbf me too) for the downgrade in quality. They were so bad that the Citymood is effectively the Italian version of a Streetlite or Streetdeck!

Let's hope the ADL Enviro200/400/500 MMCs don't suffer the same fate as the IIA Menarinibus Citymood did.
 
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SouthEastBuses

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awsnews said:
This is an extension of what ADL have been doing for quite some time, the Asian market has been served by final assembly in a plant in China with the chassis assembly having taken place in Singapore. Whilst there was/is a considerable element of ckd (completely knocked down) involved locally sourced content has been increasing. It is unclear if this proposal is more of he same or an attempt to start producing UK market vehicles using this approach.
It is a little old but there is a report by the Hong Kong branch of the iMechE on a visit to the plant in China here
[/URL]
Click to expand...

Also don't forget the North American Enviro500s are actually built in the USA (precisely Nappanee in Indiana) and not in the UK! Well, they legally have to because of Buy America...
 
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37114

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SouthEastBuses said:
Ooh Karsan - never trust their quality.

Reminds me a lot of when IIA (Industria Italiana Autobus) MenariniBus outsourced their Citymoods to be built in Turkey (rather than in Italy as they are supposed to) and many enthusiasts have criticised (and tbf me too) for the downgrade in quality. They were so bad that the Citymood is effectively the Italian version of a Streetlite or Streetdeck!

Let's hope the ADL Enviro200/400/500 MMCs don't suffer the same fate as the IIA Menarinibus Citymood did.
Click to expand...
ADL will have no doubt have performance clauses within their contract for uptime, miles per failure etc that they need to be achieving as well as the usual warranties they will need to put in place. They will no doubt "back to back" these with whoever they choose to work with so the onus is passed back to the original builder to meet the required quality. That said it is not really in ADL's interests for the buses to be anything other than spot on as it will have a detrimental effect on their ability to win future orders in mainland Europe as BVG will be the ultimate go to reference for any future large scale buyers.

I don't know the specifics on the Italian buses mentioned but my dealings with Italian cars and an Italian HGV manufacturer and their now defunct UK subsidiary was build quality was never a strong point when it came to Italian vehicles
 
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awsnews

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It would appear that Arriva haven't taken a batch of Wright Streetdecks built to Sapphire specification with 7 now being advertised by Chartwell Bus Sales:
www.chartwellbussales.co.uk

Chartwell Bus Sales Ltd

Chartwell Bus Sales Ltd 01403 756 804 / 07950 616 106, Founded in 2016 by Director Steve Swain who has over 30 years’ experience in the UK Bus and Coach industry. Chartwell offers a wide range of new and used buses and coaches, from 22 seats through to 80 + to suit all specifications and budgets.
www.chartwellbussales.co.uk www.chartwellbussales.co.uk
 
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47550

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py_megapixel said:
Shipping buses halfway across the world just so that they can be built in the UK makes no sense though...
Click to expand...
I passed a tri axle double deck Enviro last week on the M40 heading south near Leamington. It had lettering for Victoria, British Columbia.
 
scosutsut

scosutsut

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awsnews said:
It would appear that Arriva haven't taken a batch of Wright Streetdecks built to Sapphire specification with 7 now being advertised by Chartwell Bus Sales:
www.chartwellbussales.co.uk

Chartwell Bus Sales Ltd

Chartwell Bus Sales Ltd 01403 756 804 / 07950 616 106, Founded in 2016 by Director Steve Swain who has over 30 years’ experience in the UK Bus and Coach industry. Chartwell offers a wide range of new and used buses and coaches, from 22 seats through to 80 + to suit all specifications and budgets.
www.chartwellbussales.co.uk www.chartwellbussales.co.uk
Click to expand...
Oft, leaving us to wonder if build quality or Covid related finances have dictated that one.
 
NewcastleOne

NewcastleOne

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scosutsut said:
Oft, leaving us to wonder if build quality or Covid related finances have dictated that one.
Click to expand...
They were built just as Wrights went bust and weren’t delivered. As wrights resumed just after the main pandemic wave, Arriva cancelled them.
 
scosutsut

scosutsut

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cnjb8 said:
No, they cancelled the order.
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Thanks I meant placed any subsequent orders, or does it look like that they are shunning Wrightbus now - like Lothian has been recently - and like Stagecoach largely has since mostly forever.
 
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Robertj21a

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scosutsut said:
Thanks I meant placed any subsequent orders, or does it look like that they are shunning Wrightbus now - like Lothian has been recently - and like Stagecoach largely has since mostly forever.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure it has anything to do with shunning Bamford, it's simply that few operators are ordering new buses during these uncertain times.
 
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CN04NRJ

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scosutsut said:
Thanks! Do we know if Arriva have ordered from Wright's/Bamford since?
Click to expand...

Out of interest does anyone know if Wright/Bamford are planning to offer a "heavyweight" or full sized single deck option of some sort in the future?
 
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