The future of "in branch" banking.

[Bletchleyite]

Interesting that banks can refuse a basic account to someone convicted of fraud. I think that would have to end if cash was to be properly abolished.

 

[crablab]

Interesting that banks can refuse a basic account to someone convicted of fraud.

This isn't true and what I think is beung referred to is a lot more nuanced.

The general principle is, however, that as a private company the bank has no obligation to sustain a relationship with an individual, subject to TCF (Treating Customers Fairly).

 

[najaB]

This isn't true and what I think is beung referred to is a lot more nuanced.

Well, it is true that they can refuse a bank account to someone, for the reason that they have a conviction for fraud (my bold):

If you’re in prison or have a conviction, you may be able to get a basic bank account. Banks don’t have access to criminal records, but they do have systems to detect applications from people who have a record of fraud or related illegal activities. All banks and building societies can reject applications from people who have a record of fraud. They can also reject you if you’re an undischarged bankrupt, which is when you’re still going through the process of becoming bankrupt.

Source:

Fee-free basic bank accounts

Everything you need to know about opening a fee-free basic bank account, including what you need to open an account in the UK and picking the best account

www.moneyadviceservice.org.uk

What's not true is that someone with such a conviction is guaranteed to be rejected.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's all fair enough - my point was just that if we want a cash-free society, and I can see huge benefits and few drawbacks to that, we need to ensure that every legal resident of the UK can access a basic bank account with an online-only debit card as a minimum, and that such cards must be accepted in all places[1] any other card is accepted.

It might be as easy to provide a "fallback" account through the nationalised Post Office, TBH. It'd basically be the same thing as a kid's account with an online only debit card, no real scope to actually defraud anyone of anything using it, as it's basically nothing more than the electronic version of fifty quid in your wallet.

[1] Petrol pumps pose an issue, but we surely can't be far off them being able to be online to the bank and authorise as they pump, a litre at a time. Or have an option to type in how much you want to authorise, which is how automatic pumps usually work elsewhere in Europe.

 

[najaB]

It might be as easy to provide a "fallback" account through the nationalised Post Office, TBH.

Either that or the Government indemnifies private banks from losses incurred by providing accounts to people they would normally reject due to convictions, undischarged bankruptcies etc.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Either that or the Government indemnifies private banks from losses incurred by providing accounts to people they would normally reject due to convictions, undischarged bankruptcies etc.

Yes, that would also work.

 

[island]

Possibly OT but a few weeks ago our IT administrators at work announced that Chrome was being removed from all corporate laptops due to security concerns, which has since happened

At the bank I recently stopped working for, getting Chrome required executive level sign off because it allowed people to get around their data loss prevention software. I don’t know any more details as it was all security by obscurity; they figured that making it difficult would be enough to make people give up.

There is a way. I knew someone who was here illegally (they are legal now) and they managed to get a Nationwide account. Law has probably been tightened up nowadays though.

Yes, since a few years ago banks are legally required to screen current account applicants against a Home Office database if they do not present British passports. If there is a hit, the customer must be refused an account and given a (frankly rather threatening) Home Office leaflet saying they need to take steps to leave the country.

There was a proposal around requiring rescreening every year or two and closing accounts if there was a hit, but I am not sure anything came of it.

 

[crablab]

for the reason that they have a conviction for fraud

This would not be the mechanism used to reject someone who is a potentially higher risk customer.

Yes, since a few years ago banks are legally required to screen current account applicants against a Home Office database if they do not present British passports.

Funnily enough, although it's still a legal requirement to screen against this database, it's now completely empty as a legal challenge found it was unlawful (or something like that).

 

[maniacmartin]

It'd basically be the same thing as a kid's account with an online only debit card, no real scope to actually defraud anyone of anything using it, as it's basically nothing more than the electronic version of fifty quid in your wallet.

You could still 'sell' such an account to be used for money laundering, or convince a vulnerable person that this is the new collections account for their electricity provider etc that they need to send they money to. I'm sure other possible scams exist that would work with a basic account too.

 

[crablab]

I'm sure other possible scams exist that would work with a basic account too.

Indeed. But the scope for doing so is less, as limits are lower.

 

[A Challenge]

Indeed. But the scope for doing so is less, as limits are lower.

Is there any limit on the maximum payment in, or maximum balance - I'm not aware of current accounts (though there may be a few) that have a maximum balance, and maximum payment will be maximum out of the origin account surely?

 

[crablab]

Money in is fairly (not completely) irrelevant. It's where it (or tries to) go after it's entered, and in what velocity and volume.

 

[Daniel740]

Either that or the Government indemnifies private banks from losses incurred by providing accounts to people they would normally reject due to convictions, undischarged bankruptcies etc.

Yes, that would also work.

Or you know, we could just keep cash?

 

[BluePenguin]

Monthly, I agree. Personally I have no problem with budgeting either way, but that's because we're all different!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Oct 2020 ==

The other problem I have with monthly direct debits is that I now change my supplier every year, to pay less than otherwise. I don't get rewarded for staying with one supplier and they're all as "bad" as each other. However each year I get an "estimated" monthly bill to start with, which is significantly too low for my usage. So I work out what I should pay, and pay the difference into a savings account (0.7% interest now!). Then in due course they catch up and revise my monthly payments up, and I use the accumulated money towards the higher payments.

It's all a bit of a game for me, I guess. The interest I earn is negligible. With quarterly bills in arrears the process would be simpler, but a lot of the lowest rates now require a monthly direct debit. So be it!

Speaking of low interest rates, I have created a thread about some alternatives offering interest much greater than 0.7%. Feel free to give your opinion and discuss. Click here

 

[LAX54]

Banks have been closing High Street branches over the years, but now we are mid COVID, which building has the longest line of people outside waiting in line to get in ? Every Bank you can name ! so much for everyone wanting on line banking !

 

[ainsworth74]

Banks have been closing High Street branches over the years, but now we are mid COVID, which building has the longest line of people outside waiting in line to get in ? Every Bank you can name ! so much for everyone wanting on line banking !

I think that's a dangerous assumption. The reason there are queues now compared to previous is that banks have reduced the number of people that they're allowing into the branch at one time. Also, from my handful of visits (once to pay in a cheque over the app limit and once to try and sort a change of mandate which we'd tried doing online but had failed), most people are using ATMs inside the branch not actually dealing with counter staff. I still rather suspect that if the branch hadn't been there but instead the same services were available online the majority of customers would not have been particularly disadvantaged.

I rather suspect that the trend for bank branches to become little more than shelters filled with a bank of ATMs with one or two floor walkers babysitting them will continue apace and that branches with low footfall (i.e. those outside of larger towns and cities) will continue to close. Queues or not outside right now!

 

[Typhoon]

I think that's a dangerous assumption. The reason there are queues now compared to previous is that banks have reduced the number of people that they're allowing into the branch at one time. Also, from my handful of visits (once to pay in a cheque over the app limit and once to try and sort a change of mandate which we'd tried doing online but had failed), most people are using ATMs inside the branch not actually dealing with counter staff. I still rather suspect that if the branch hadn't been there but instead the same services were available online the majority of customers would not have been particularly disadvantaged.

I rather suspect that the trend for bank branches to become little more than shelters filled with a bank of ATMs with one or two floor walkers babysitting them will continue apace and that branches with low footfall (i.e. those outside of larger towns and cities) will continue to close. Queues or not outside right now!

To some extent I think a lot depends on the bank and the branch. There are three branches of my 'bank' that I use. Two are in areas where older people live and the queues outside only reveal what customers have known for sometime, some people prefer branch banking for the queues inside have been translated into queues outside (sometimes to the detriment of neighbouring businesses), slightly shorter but it appears that customers are 'saving up' transactions (they are basically 'shops' so you can see what is going on). The number of counter staff has only reduced by one in both cases. As the weather gets worse, the queues will shorten as customers concatenate transactions (like take out two months money, not one). The last time I visited the third, the 'floor walker' (in this case 'street walker') was trying desperately to find queuing customers whose transactions could be carried out at ATMs.

The pertinent fact I have omitted so far is that I bank with Nationwide. whose business model is more closely linked to personal, rather than business, customers, having closed my account with a big 4 bank when it became obvious that they were not interested in me as a customer. I suspect that there will be some financial organisations perhaps including the Post Office, regional 'banks' and other financial organisations, will be able to hang on but for the big 4, as you rightly say, they will want to close branches outside of the conurbations as soon as practical and Covid-19 is providing them with the perfect excuse. And, of course, in time the number of people who have adopted on-line banking because of their 'busy lifestyle' will retire but still keep up the on-line habit so leaving just district or regional branches for when face-to-face is necessary.

 

[Hadders]

Banks have been closing High Street branches over the years, but now we are mid COVID, which building has the longest line of people outside waiting in line to get in ? Every Bank you can name ! so much for everyone wanting on line banking !

How long would the queues be if there was no online banking. When I first started working back in the late 1980s a visit to any bank branch on a Friday was a compete nightmare. Payday for many people, the queues stretched out of the branch as customers withdrew wages or paid in pay cheques. There were of course many more branches in those days. Nowadays, even pre-Covid, there aren't queues like that at all.

 

[Bald Rick]

How long would the queues be if there was no online banking. When I first started working back in the late 1980s a visit to any bank branch on a Friday was a compete nightmare. Payday for many people, the queues stretched out of the branch as customers withdrew wages or paid in pay cheques. There were of course many more branches in those days. Nowadays, even pre-Covid, there aren't queues like that at all.

And more recently, queues for cash points. On any given morning 6-7 years ago there were always big queues for the cashpoints each morning at Waterloo, to the extent that more were installed. Now (well, last year), you never have to queue as no one uses them.

 

[radamfi]

Which shops were or are refusing to accept cash?

‘Shops refusing cash left me unable to buy basics’

The cash system is being threatened by some shops not accepting cash, says Consumer group Which?

www.bbc.co.uk

Stores refusing to accept cash have left consumers unable to buy basics such as groceries and medicine, according to Which?

I haven't seen any. If anything, most small shops refuse to accept cards below a certain transaction value.

 

[Typhoon]

Which shops were or are refusing to accept cash?

I haven't seen any. If anything, most small shops refuse to accept cards below a certain transaction value.

At the start of the lockdown period some of my local supermarkets (including, but not only, Sainsburys) would only accept cash at some of the self-service tills but, because of logistics, it was baskets only*! I don't know how long that lasted because I usually use them anyway.

* - you might be able to get away with one of those small, shallow trolleys - narrow 90 degree turn.

 

[PaulJ]

There’s no way I’d be handing my bank details to a complete stranger...

Why not? Your account details are being divulged every time you hand over a cheque, or your debit card.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Oct 2020 ==

Well, this thread has been very interesting for me. I have worked for a major High Street bank for the last 37 years and last week resigned to join the railway industry. As for cash, the last time I used an ATM was in March at the start of lockdown. I withdrew £50 ‘just in case’. The cash is still at home and I haven’t used cash since. My debit card and Apple Pay are all I need!

 

[gswindale]

Which shops were or are refusing to accept cash?

‘Shops refusing cash left me unable to buy basics’

The cash system is being threatened by some shops not accepting cash, says Consumer group Which?

www.bbc.co.uk

I haven't seen any. If anything, most small shops refuse to accept cards below a certain transaction value.

Our local Londis used to only take cards above £5, but late last year, they upgraded to take Google pay payments as well, so now accept cards for any value.

I noticed also when filling up the car yesterday that there was a request to use Pay at Pump if possible and if not, to preferably pay by card in the kiosk.

 

[radamfi]

Our local Londis used to only take cards above £5, but late last year, they upgraded to take Google pay payments as well, so now accept cards for any value.

I noticed also when filling up the car yesterday that there was a request to use Pay at Pump if possible and if not, to preferably pay by card in the kiosk.

They prefer you to pay by card but they still allow you to pay in cash. On the continent you can see a lot of unmanned petrol stations that only accept cards. They've existed for years. But I've never seen a petrol station in the UK that only accepts cards.

 

[ainsworth74]

They prefer you to pay by card but they still allow you to pay in cash. On the continent you can see a lot of unmanned petrol stations that only accept cards. They've existed for years. But I've never seen a petrol station in the UK that only accepts cards.

Definitely exist in the UK. My local ASDA has an unmanned petrol station that only takes cards though as it's only open when the Supermarket is I assume that for insurance purposes there has to be someone on site somewhere just not at the petrol station itself.

Then again they may have only put that in as a result of a member of staff in the cash office managing to steal over £460,000 in cash from the petrol station tills

ASDA worker 'spent money like water' after managing to steal £460,000 from South Bank supermarket

Wendy Clements was only caught when someone noticed 'large amounts of cash just lying around' her house

A supermarket worker who stole almost £460,000 from ASDA was only caught when someone noticed “large amounts of cash just lying around” her house.

Wendy Clements managed to steal the incredible amount from the South Bank supermarket, where she worked in the cash office.

Over a period of four years the mum from Gresham, Middlesbrough, spent cash “like water” before she was finally caught out.

Now, 47-year-old Clements has been jailed after fiddling the petrol kiosk’s tills at the store, benefiting to the tune of £459,925.

Ian West, prosecuting, said Clements had worked out that the electronic records on the tills were not linked to the “smart record” that she would submit to ASDA’s head office.

So she understated the amount of cash taken at the till and simply pocketed the rest.

Mr West said: “Over the period, she took over £450,000 in cash. The system of recording cash takings has changed since.

“The matter came to light as a result of a call from someone who had been to her house and seen large amounts of cash just lying around.

“They thought it was unusual for someone working in modest employment.”

Mr West said that when the matter was brought up, Clements “went on the sick and refused to attend interviews”.

“As a result, police became involved and Mrs Clements and three other members of staff were arrested and interviewed under caution,” he added.

As the investigation continued, ASDA’s internal account checks proved that cash had only ever went missing when Clements had been working.

“In July, Mrs Clements had made full admissions. By then the net had tightened around her,” said Mr West.

Victim impact statements from Clements’ colleagues were read to the court, describing the fear they felt at being falsely accused and the loss of privacy when their houses were searched top to bottom by police.

One of the workers said: “Being arrested for theft will be forever imprinted on my memory.”


Despite the huge sum stolen by Clements, Mr West said she “literally blew the lot” on holidays for herself and family, meals out and even cosmetic surgery for someone else.

“It was basically living the high life - money was spent like water,” he said.

With no cash left, police and prosecutors ruled out trying to claim back compensation from Clements and said that ASDA would have to pursue a civil claim to get back any of the money.

John Nixon, defending, said Clements was “a lady of very low self-esteem” who had suffered depression after the break-up of her marriage in 2012.

Mr Nixon said: “She found herself unloved and unwanted. In her own words, she began to buy people’s affection.”

Regarding ASDA’s accounting system, Mr Nixon added: “It may well be, that with better systems she would never have found herself in front of this court”

Unmoved Judge Stephen Ashurst replied: “I’m not sure I buy that. She’s been smart enough to identify the loophole in the system. She not only noticed it, but exploited it.”

Mr Nixon added that his client had showed genuine remorse about the harm she had caused to her co-workers.

“She expresses her very great shame and regret and begs for their forgiveness,” he said.

Describing the “vast scale” of Clement’s theft, between January 2012 and February 2016, Judge Ashurst continued: “This was £150,000 on average a year. The motivation here is greed - nothing more, nothing less.

“The most troubling aspect in this case is the traumatic affect your offending has had on three innocent women. Between February and July last year they went to hell and back.

“You could have averted their acute distress by having the honesty to admit it when you were arrested. In my judgement that was a wicked thing to do.”

He jailed Clements, of Gresham Road, Middlesbrough, for three years and four months at Teesside Crown Court after she pleaded guilty to theft and falsifying accounts.

The Gazette has contacted ASDA for comment.

Worker 'spent money like water' after stealing £460k from ASDA

Wendy Clements was only caught when someone noticed 'large amounts of cash just lying around' her house

www.gazettelive.co.uk

[Local news website health warning, proceed only with adblocker!]

 

[LAX54]

And more recently, queues for cash points. On any given morning 6-7 years ago there were always big queues for the cashpoints each morning at Waterloo, to the extent that more were installed. Now (well, last year), you never have to queue as no one uses them.

Always, or nearly always seems to be a bit of a queue waiting for ATM's outside the likes of ASDA / Teeco etc

 

[birchesgreen]

Then again they may have only put that in as a result of a member of staff in the cash office managing to steal over £460,000 in cash from the petrol station tills

Worker 'spent money like water' after stealing £460k from ASDA

Wendy Clements was only caught when someone noticed 'large amounts of cash just lying around' her house

www.gazettelive.co.uk

[Local news website health warning, proceed only with adblocker!]

Fascinating crime, very similar to the crime in a Sweeney episode (predating cards and computers of course), maybe she also did a bingewatch during lockdown!

 

[Bald Rick]

Definitely exist in the UK. My local ASDA has an unmanned petrol station that only takes cards though as it's only open when the Supermarket is I assume that for insurance purposes there has to be someone on site somewhere just not at the petrol station itself.

Then again they may have only put that in as a result of a member of staff in the cash office managing to steal over £460,000 in cash from the petrol station tills

Worker 'spent money like water' after stealing £460k from ASDA

Wendy Clements was only caught when someone noticed 'large amounts of cash just lying around' her house

www.gazettelive.co.uk

[Local news website health warning, proceed only with adblocker!]

What were the internal auditors doing !!!!

 

[Typhoon]

What were the internal auditors doing !!!!

Taking the fees and walking away? I've seen mistakes in published audits before that the use of Excel would have picked up!

How come Asda didn't notice? That's a hell of a lot of money.

“The matter came to light as a result of a call from someone who had been to her house and seen large amounts of cash just lying around.

If she'd been a bit more reclusive, she might have got away with it.

 

[Bald Rick]

Taking the fees and walking away?

I do hope internal auditors at ASDA don’t charge fees! They didn’t when a friend of mine was in Finance there (long before this).