Has Greater Manchester been renamed "Manchester"?

[C J Snarzell]

Preston isn't split in two as far as I know. Unless you are referring to South Ribble Council. The river circles the south of the city and as the name implies, anything on the south of the bank is another local authority district.

It's only the same geographical set up for Manchester. If you roll down wind of Deansgate, Victoria Station or the Arndale Centre, cross the River Irwell, you are in Salford borough.

CJ

 

[birchesgreen]

A bit extreme, but I certainly do think we need big reform around our cities, and to stop objecting to the idea of large unitary city councils that take in the city and its hinterland, as that's basically how just about every other country does it and it works well (including in those UK places where it is done, like MK).

Why on earth do we need 10 (or whatever it is) different bin collection systems in London? It's ridiculous - pointless duplication that costs money. You really don't need the boroughs of London at all, just a single Greater London/Manchester/Liverpool/Preston[1]/whatever Council with individual services devolved to departments as necessary, such as several bin depots, bus depots, libraries or whatever.

[1] It's ludicrous that the contiguous city area of Preston is split in two, for instance.

Yes it would be a massive success like the bin collections in Birmingham always are.

London has a bigger population than most countries in Europe so a single council there would be... interesting.

 

[radamfi]

Preston isn't split in two as far as I know. Unless you are referring to South Ribble Council. The river circles the south of the city and as the name implies, anything on the south of the bank is another local authority district.

It's only the same geographical set up for Manchester. If you roll down wind of Deansgate, Victoria Station or the Arndale Centre, cross the River Irwell, you are in Salford borough.

The point is, Bamber Bridge, Penwortham etc. are in the same urban area as "proper" Preston. Similarly for Salford. Historically they may have grown up as separate settlements but in modern practical terms they behave as one single city.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes it would be a massive success like the bin collections in Birmingham always are.

They seem to work fine in MK. I've never quite seen what was so hard about it, to be honest.

London has a bigger population than most countries in Europe so a single council there would be... interesting.

Yes, London would be a challenge - but if you look all over Europe public services are provided by "the city", so it's not like this is unprecedented.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 20 Oct 2020 ==

The point is, Bamber Bridge, Penwortham etc. are in the same urban area as "proper" Preston. Similarly for Salford. Historically they may have grown up as separate settlements but in modern practical terms they behave as one single city.

Yes, that was exactly my point. De-facto, people in Penwortham live in Preston. They might be a bit pretentious and not like to say they do (just like older, er, Bletchleyites, might say they don't live in MK when in any practical sense they do), but they do. It makes sense to have a Council area that covers the whole de-facto city.

It's just downright wasteful and silly to have two bin contracts for one city.

 

[Goldfish62]

People in Stockport, Wigan, Bolton, Bury, Rochdale and Oldham would generally say they are from the respective towns.

Salfordians would say a mix of Salford or Manchester (my Mum was born in Salford but when it was classified as Manchester).

Trafford residents would say Manchester, apart from towards Altrincham which might be Cheshire.

People in Tameside would probably say a mix of Manchester, their local town (Ashton/Stalybridge/Hyde) or 'Cheshire'.

On the flip side of the coin I think you'll find that some people in Glossop identify more with GM than Derbyshire, where the town actually is!

 

[Bletchleyite]

On the flip side of the coin I think you'll find that some people in Glossop identify more with GM than Derbyshire, where the town actually is!

Do they want to be in GM, though? A very large proportion of the population of Ormskirk, Burscough and Skem identify with Liverpool and consider themselves Scousers (or poshed-up rural ones, in the former two cases). But they are in West Lancs and usually don't want to be in "Merseyside" due to the relatively high Council Tax that is charged there.

 

[Goldfish62]

Do they want to be in GM, though? A very large proportion of the population of Ormskirk, Burscough and Skem identify with Liverpool and consider themselves Scousers (or poshed-up rural ones, in the former two cases). But they are in West Lancs and usually don't want to be in "Merseyside" due to the relatively high Council Tax that is charged there.

Honestly don't know the answer to that, but yes, council tax would undoubtedly have a major influence!

 

[C J Snarzell]

Southport, Formby & Ainsdale are Merseyside. Whoever drew up the planning for the respective boundaries back in 1974 had either been drinking on the job or decided to have some fun at the expense at the locals.

A whole 15 mile stretch of coast line falls under the M'Siders, but if you cross over the A565 (that links Southport with Liverpool) you are back in West Lancashire.

If you are a professional burglar or thief you could have some rich pickings in the village of Banks. The nearest cop shop is Southport which is only two miles down the road.

However, Banks residents are policed by Lancashire who have to turn out from their operational bases of either Chorley or Skelmersdale, which are miles away - with just endless country lanes inbetween.

CJ

 

[Bletchleyite]

However, Banks residents are policed by Lancashire who have to turn out from their operational bases of either Chorley or Skelmersdale, which are miles away - with just endless country lanes inbetween.

That's more an issue because of the mere existence of local Forces - Scotland learnt that quite early on that one national force makes more sense, then it can organise itself as necessary so as to best do its job.

 

[C J Snarzell]

That's more an issue because of the mere existence of local Forces - Scotland learnt that quite early on that one national force makes more sense, then it can organise itself as necessary so as to best do its job.

Tony Blair's Labour government actually devised blueprints to merge some of the smaller UK polices in the mid 2000s when Charles Clarke was Home Secretary but alas it was considered to be too much of an economic & logistic headache and the idea was eventually shelved.

CJ

 

[S&CLER]

Southport, Formby & Ainsdale are Merseyside. Whoever drew up the planning for the respective boundaries back in 1974 had either been drinking on the job or decided to have some fun at the expense at the locals.

A whole 15 mile stretch of coast line falls under the M'Siders, but if you cross over the A565 (that links Southport with Liverpool) you are back in West Lancashire.

If you are a professional burglar or thief you could have some rich pickings in the village of Banks. The nearest cop shop is Southport which is only two miles down the road.

However, Banks residents are policed by Lancashire who have to turn out from their operational bases of either Chorley or Skelmersdale, which are miles away - with just endless country lanes inbetween.

CJ

It's convenient for Southport to be in Merseyside if you have a Merseytravel pass, as I do; what is still widely disliked is not Merseyside as such, but lumping Southport and Formby into Sefton (a.k.a. Greater Bootle), one of the most unnatural groupings of disparate areas. The man who was chief weights and measures inspector in 1974 told me he tried to persuade the then borough to resist it, but to no avail. I have yet to meet anyone who feels any sense of belonging to Sefton (except for council employees). Banks would be a better fit with Southport than Southport is with Bootle. What's the optimum size for a local authority in population, I wonder?

 

[Sad Sprinter]

To be honest, I wish it was. British cities are to be honest, fairly pathetic in the way they are run. Some are large cities-in European standards, Manchester being a good example. But Manchester, the city, is a tiny part of Greater Manchester, most of which people consider Manchester. Look at Liverpool, nearly half a million people in the urban area and yet Liverpool itself is only a small part of it. Glasgow is another example. I wish British cities were more like London, in which the city itself, is not just a borough within the conurbation.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To be honest, I wish it was. British cities are to be honest, fairly pathetic in the way they are run. Some are large cities-in European standards, Manchester being a good example. But Manchester, the city, is a tiny part of Greater Manchester, most of which people consider Manchester. Look at Liverpool, nearly half a million people in the urban area and yet Liverpool itself is only a small part of it. Glasgow is another example. I wish British cities were more like London, in which the city itself, is not just a borough within the conurbation.

Umm, London is made up of the wasteful and pointless duplication of a load of boroughs.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

Umm, London is made up of the wasteful and pointless duplication of a load of boroughs.

Ah but they're all "London" though. There is a City of London of course, but no one disputes that Southwark is not actually London, because its not the "city of".

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah but they're all "London" though. There is a City of London of course, but no one disputes that Southwark is not actually London, because its not the "city of".

I suspect if you ask someone who lives in Sefton where they live they'll probably say Liverpool, though. It's just that London has a far larger contiguous sprawl than other cities in the UK do.

 

[radamfi]

I heard BJ calling it "Manchester" a lot during the 5 o'clock press conference. Do they get any guidance on whether to use the full "Greater Manchester" or not? Which is more politically acceptable, "Manchester" or "Greater Manchester"? Your typical older Bolton Brexiteer, who helped to put BJ into power, is probably annoyed by him not saying Greater. To secure those marginal Tory seats, they might be advised to transfer Bolton back to Lancashire.

 

[Ianno87]

I heard BJ calling it "Manchester" a lot during the 5 o'clock press conference. Do they get any guidance on whether to use the full "Greater Manchester" or not? Which is more politically acceptable, "Manchester" or "Greater Manchester"? Your typical older Bolton Brexiteer, who helped to put BJ into power, is probably annoyed by him not saying Greater. To secure those marginal Tory seats, they might be advised to transfer Bolton back to Lancashire.

If you're a Brexit voter in Bolton, you probably still refer to yourself as in Lancashire.

 

[Sad Sprinter]

If you're a Brexit voter in Bolton, you probably still refer to yourself as in Lancashire.

Do you have to be a Brexit voter to appreciate the romance of the traditional county over the utilitarianism of the conurbation? Tell all those in Croydon that they are Londoners now and haven't been in Surrey since 1965! And half (I think) of Croydon is remain.

 

[Altrincham]

I’ve noticed in the last day or so that the term ‘Greater Manchester’ has been used a lot more in TV press conferences and interviews, instead of ‘Manchester’.

There is the occasional tendency (on the main news channels) for someone to start talking about Greater Manchester and then refer to the area as Manchester for the rest of the interview/discussion.

Whenever I hear mention of ‘Manchester’, the area that comes into my mind first is the area that lies east of the Irwell, west of Audenshaw reservoir, south of Heaton Park, and north of the Airport.

 

[C J Snarzell]

Its important for any town to retain its identity and not be swallowed up just because it lives under a shadow of it's superior neighbour.

I'm from Wigan and the only association I make with Manchester is the 'M's I see at bus stops and the fact the town's emergency services are Greater Manchester (Police, Fire & Rescue, Ambulance)

The council leader is David Molyneux and the MP is Lisa Nandy - so as far as I'm concerned their voice is more relevant to me and my family than those of Andy Burnham.

BJ's remarks about 'Manchester' and not 'Greater Manchester' kind of sums up the whole attitude of the Tory government that they are a little out of touch with the troublemaking urchins up north and their priorities lie in the south.

CJ

 

[radamfi]

There is the occasional tendency (on the main news channels) for someone to start talking about Greater Manchester and then refer to the area as Manchester for the rest of the interview/discussion.

That's the BBC policy regarding Derry. "Londonderry" on first mention and then "Derry" every time afterwards.

 

[Ianno87]

That's the BBC policy regarding Derry. "Londonderry" on first mention and then "Derry" every time afterwards.

For very, very different reasons.

 

[Bevan Price]

Really I think the whole system needs to be burned down and started again.

Agree, but not in the way that others might want. Personally, I think there is a view in Whitehall and elsewhere that "big" is good, and "small" is bad.
Big organisations just make it easier to hide wasteful practices, and incite senior managers to claim high salaries "just because they manage more people". And all the "City Region" status has done is to introduce higher council taxes to pay for yet another level of management.

Personally, my choice would be to scrap the 1974 local government changes, and return to much smaller local authorities. These authorities would be recommended (but not forced) to cooperate with nearby councils over services such as transport, waste disposal, police, etc. Very small towns and villages would be consulted (by referendum, not councillors' opinions) about which town they should be associated with -- instead of Whitehall imposition (e.g. Leigh - "You WILL be part of Wigan", etc.)

 

[js1000]

I've had people from as far as Glossop, Wilmslow, Warrington, Nantwich simply say there from Manchester. Maybe just pre-empting the "where's that?" question in the same way someone from Sutton or Havering would simply say London.

The Greater Manchester project has certainly been an interesting experiment over the past 50 years. The 10 boroughs have historically been "joined at the hip" far more than other areas such as Birmingham, Liverpool, Leeds etc with the trade in textiles and political movements such as Peterloo.

 

[C J Snarzell]

The Manchester Airport agreement makes me laugh. All ten boroughs have a stake in the airport and all ten have had to plough millions of tax payers money into keeping the airport afloat during Covid19.

Many residents living in areas of social depravity on estates in Rochdale or Wigan will never afford exotic holidays or travel on an aeroplane. The fact their local authority is denying them better services or assistance in these hard times kind of smacks in face.

CJ

 

[jfollows]

The Manchester Airport agreement makes me laugh. All ten boroughs have a stake in the airport and all ten have had to plough millions of tax payers money into keeping the airport afloat during Covid19.

Many residents living in areas of social depravity on estates in Rochdale or Wigan will never afford exotic holidays or travel on an aeroplane. The fact their local authority is denying them better services or assistance in these hard times kind of smacks in face.

CJ

That's undeniably true today, for sure, but for how many years has Manchester Airport been a money earner and subsidised the rates in Rochdale and Wigan?

 

[talltim]

A lot of it what you call place depends on who you are talking to. A local will now the small town, to someone from the other side of the country you use the nearest big town. To many Americans we’d be from Europe rather than the UK or England (assuming you are from England)
I’m from Hertfordshire, when met my future wife I used to visit her in Derbyshire at the weekends. Her grandma always used to ask me how London was. To her London was the whole of the southeast. To me it was a place nearly as far away as Manchester was to her

 

[Senex]

Is there anywnere where the 1974 changes have gone beyond the purely organisational and really created new loyalties and feelings of identity? They certainly seem to have failed pretty spectacularly so to do in the old counties of Lancashire and Yorkshire (all three Ridings, and York). But historic attachments are not just a British thing, are they. The East German Bezirke never managed to replaced the old Länder identities for many people, which is in part why it was so easy to restore the Länder after re-unification. Or what about France, where even after a couple of hundred years and more the Départements did not totally replace the historic Regions in people's minds?

 

[Ianno87]

I've had people from as far as Glossop, Wilmslow, Warrington, Nantwich simply say there from Manchester. Maybe just pre-empting the "where's that?" question in the same way someone from Sutton or Havering would simply say London.

I'm sure Warrington IKEA has branded itself as "Manchester West" before now...

 

[xotGD]

I'm sure Warrington IKEA has branded itself as "Manchester West" before now...

Ryanair would be proud!