Circular Chiltern Route?

[peteb]

My idea is for Chiltern to run a Marylebone-Oxford-Worcester-Kidderminster-Birmingham-Banbury-Marylebone circuit. This would entail a reversal at Oxford in each direction. Nevertheless if you extrapolate existing journey times and add a 7 minute reversal allowance you get the following:
MARYLEBONE 00:00
OXFORD 01:05/01:12
WORCS SH 02:30/02:35
KIDDERMINSTER 02:55
SNOW HILL 03:30/03:35
BANBURY 04:30
MARYLEBONE 05:30

These timings allow for several intermediate stops, so could be accelerated if say Marylebone to Oxford ran non stop and Banbury to Marylebone likewise; also Worcester to Snow Hill is generous but realistic.

I would imagine the train using some existing paths, but Worcester to Snow Hill might need to be a new path, the whole route perhaps at 2 hourly intervals?

Not sure about the reverse direction, but would form a useful route avoiding changes at New St and relieving pressure on some XC routes.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Won’t work.

Next.

 

[JonathanH]

Not sure about the reverse direction, but would form a useful route avoiding changes at New St and relieving pressure on some XC routes.

Really? XC trains don't take over two hours to get from Oxford to Birmingham. Kidderminster is quicker via Banbury in your plan in any case.

What makes you think that Kidderminster and Droitwich are going to produce more passengers for the Cotswold stations and London (with a time consuming reversal at Oxford) than Great Malvern and Hereford?

I'm not sure this proposition has any merit at all. A very limited Birmingham via the Cotswolds to Oxford and Paddington was tried in the early days of Turbos but didn't survive privatisation.

 

[peteb]

Really? XC trains don't take over two hours to get from Oxford to Birmingham. Kidderminster is quicker via Banbury in your plan in any case.

What makes you think that Kidderminster and Droitwich are going to produce more passengers for the Cotswold stations and London (with a time consuming reversal at Oxford) than Great Malvern and Hereford?

I'm not sure this proposition has any merit at all. A very limited Birmingham via the Cotswolds to Oxford and Paddington was tried in the early days of Turbos but didn't survive privatisation.

Well, I thought the current lack of decent connections at Worcestershire Parkway might serve to deter travel to/from Birmingham from Cotswold line stations, so running a through train to supplement not replace the GWR service from those might be better.

Also a journey such as Worcester to High Wycombe relies on a good connection at Oxford plus a Chiltern that actually stops there, or a via Birmingham trundle, again easier that way on a through train.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

It seems post-HS2 Phase 1 and “Midlands Connect” or whatever they want to see a two-hourly IEP to Kidderminster, complementing the two-hourly Hereford. And I think some form of two-hourly all stations service from Oxford to Worcester? As a fill-in?

 

[The Planner]

What is this one trying to solve? I doubt there is an untapped flow from Buckinghamshire to Worcestershire to be honest.

 

[43096]

What is this one trying to solve?

Using up a global surplus of crayons?

 

[peteb]

It seems post-HS2 Phase 1 and “Midlands Connect” or whatever they want to see a two-hourly IEP to Kidderminster, complementing the two-hourly Hereford. And I think some form of two-hourly all stations service from Oxford to Worcester? As a fill-in?

Well that would be a very welcome service as Wyre Forest District does suffer from lack of regular direct connectivity to the SE, excepting the early morning and evening return Chilterns. The slow crawl into Birmingham from Kidderminster (35 minutes at best on average) is slower than steam or early dmu in the 1950s. It's not a good selling feature for economic development, as is the lack of a fast dual carriageway to the M5 (the previously fast dual A449 having been the victim of health and safety culture, mostly 50 limit now with intermittent dual carriageway, again worse than the 1960s) and the A456 similarly single and traffic calmed towards Birmingham.

The only decent fast services via Kidderminster, the early morning Cardiff and late night return plus an XC from Devon late night dont stop there, but take only 22 mins to Birmingham!

 

[jimm]

Well, I thought the current lack of decent connections at Worcestershire Parkway might serve to deter travel to/from Birmingham from Cotswold line stations, so running a through train to supplement not replace the GWR service from those might be better.

Also a journey such as Worcester to High Wycombe relies on a good connection at Oxford plus a Chiltern that actually stops there, or a via Birmingham trundle, again easier that way on a through train.

What lack of decent connections at Worcestershire Parkway?

So long as you are careful about when you travel, there are northbound connections from the Cotswold Line towards New Street of 10 to 15 minutes at various points in the day (you can leave Evesham at 07.51 and you will be at New Street for 08.45, to give just one example) and while the southbound connections are patchier, the XC services leaving Birmingham at 17.30, 19.30, 18.20 or 20.30 also give similar connecting times at Parkway if someone is heading towards Evesham or the Cotswolds.

And even having a longer wait at Parkway will still end up quicker than going all the way round via Kidderminster and Stourbridge to Snow Hill.

Well that would be a very welcome service as Wyre Forest District does suffer from lack of regular direct connectivity to the SE, excepting the early morning and evening return Chilterns. The slow crawl into Birmingham from Kidderminster (35 minutes at best on average) is slower than steam or early dmu in the 1950s. It's not a good selling feature for economic development, as is the lack of a fast dual carriageway to the M5 (the previously fast dual A449 having been the victim of health and safety culture, mostly 50 limit now with intermittent dual carriageway, again worse than the 1960s) and the A456 similarly single and traffic calmed towards Birmingham.

There was a reason that the A449 was dealt with - because it wasn't safe and had a lousy accident record, in large part due to many people paying scant attention to the previous speed limits on a road with some tight curves by dual carriageway standards and a number of flat junctions where cars crossed in front of fast-moving traffic.

 

[peteb]

What lack of decent connections at Worcestershire Parkway?

So long as you are careful about when you travel, there are northbound connections from the Cotswold Line towards New Street of 10 to 15 minutes at various points in the day (you can leave Evesham at 07.51 and you will be at New Street for 08.45, to give just one example) and while the southbound connections are patchier, the XC services leaving Birmingham at 17.30, 19.30, 18.20 or 20.30 also give similar connecting times at Parkway if someone is heading towards Evesham or the Cotswolds.

And even having a longer wait at Parkway will still end up quicker than going all the way round via Kidderminster and Stourbridge to Snow Hill.


There was a reason that the A449 was dealt with - because it wasn't safe and had a lousy accident record, in large part due to many people paying scant attention to the previous speed limits on a road with some tight curves by dual carriageway standards and a number of flat junctions where cars crossed in front of fast-moving traffic.

Oh I totally agree that the previous A449 was responsible in part for many horrendous accidents, mainly due as you say to speeding. However in trying to attract business to the area, improvements in journey times to and from Birmingham and London seemed essential pre covid for passengers at least. Freight still rumbles along the A456 and A449 slower than ever and of course discouraging people who might forego the train at Kidderminster to drive to Worcestershire Parkway or Warwick Parkway to speed up their journeys to London. And so there's a
knock on effect on local business investment.