St Pancras Intl

[12CSVT]

The new St Pancras is probably okay if you want to do some shopping (at about five times the price of your local High Street) but if you want to transfer from one train to another it is a b******y nightmare. And as for 500 passengers piling off an EMT service onto one escalator.................

 

[EM2]

The new St Pancras is probably okay if you want to do some shopping (at about five times the price of your local High Street) but if you want to transfer from one train to another it is a b******y nightmare. And as for 500 passengers piling off an EMT service onto one escalator.................

Really?
Off EMT, turn round at the bottom of the escalator, FCC is straight in front. Or turn right for SE. Or go straight ahead for E*. Not exactly taxing and no more than three minutes to any of them.
And there isn't one escalator, there's two. And two lifts. And two staircases, which are especially if you're heading to the H&C/Met/Circle platforms.

 

[Invincibles]

There are two escalators but most people seem determined to use the first one. I always leave them to it and use the second one. As I am not going into the shops it does not really matter.

Manchester Airport is a far finer place to arrive back from Asia into, never cold up there

 

[At_traction]

Really?
Off EMT, turn round at the bottom of the escalator, FCC is straight in front. Or turn right for SE. Or go straight ahead for E*. Not exactly taxing and no more than three minutes to any of them.
And there isn't one escalator, there's two. And two lifts. And two staircases, which are especially if you're heading to the H&C/Met/Circle platforms.

The Maze

So, you (mr./ms. whoever) get off from the Javelin at, say, pfm.13 and take the escalator to the ground floor in order to get a re-connection. You land at "the Circle", a non-orientational dead end by the Pancras road side, where (hopefully) signage tells you where to go next. Obviously first 180 degrees around, from the dead end.

a) Signage leads you to your EMT connection; around corner to the escalators and up to the platform turnstiles. That was easy, because:

b) your optional FCC connection leaves from pfm. B (B??); to the right after ticket office, through turnstiles, down to mezzanine, down again after crossing the tracks. Phew. Arrival, in fact, isn't any simpler or faster, up double escalators again from pfm. A.


I still think a somewhat far cry from at-one-glance electronic "big boards" with train info and a single-level row of platforms in a single hall, all reachable from the same side and with HUGE number-signs in alphanumeric order above each bufferline. Couldn't get much simpler. (If you know that you'd be getting a particular TOC's service and know beforehand where the "sub-terminal" for that TOC is located, it's of course an improvement over last minute running to the other side of the shed, say KGX's pfm. zero; but for a first-timer - like at "STP International?" - visible and non-confusing signage is paramount in these circumstances.)

And the map also shows that the (especially) non-international services have been moved exactly the length of the "old shed" away from, for example, the LU stations - all the domestic service platforms end under the flat-topped extension.

 

[paul1609]

If you think st pancras is bad go across the road to the London Terminus of the Yorkshire Branch Railway. The "northern experience" in London: Filthy dirty, 1970s catering experience (BK, Whistlestop and whatever the baguette shops called).
People sitting on the floor because theres no where else>
Filthy dirty toilets that you have to pay to use.Last minute boarding of trains.

Then of course theres the "express" service to Scotland, except that it isnt:
On the approach to every Yorkshire Village you are treated to about 5 miles of trundling at 30 mph before a totally unnecessary stop to let about 10 people off.
Eventually you get to Edinburgh about 20 mins late on the pathetic 4 hr 35 schedule.

Eastcoast recreating the nationalised experience.
Yorkshire Branch line the route of the puffing billy!

 

[EM2]

The Maze

So, you (mr./ms. whoever) get off from the Javelin at, say, pfm.13 and take the escalator to the ground floor in order to get a re-connection. You land at "the Circle", a non-orientational dead end by the Pancras road side, where (hopefully) signage tells you where to go next. Obviously first 180 degrees around, from the dead end.

a) Signage leads you to your EMT connection; around corner to the escalators and up to the platform turnstiles. That was easy, because:

b) your optional FCC connection leaves from pfm. B (B??); to the right after ticket office, through turnstiles, down to mezzanine, down again after crossing the tracks. Phew. Arrival, in fact, isn't any simpler or faster, up double escalators again from pfm. A.


I still think a somewhat far cry from at-one-glance electronic "big boards" with train info and a single-level row of platforms in a single hall, all reachable from the same side and with HUGE number-signs in alphanumeric order above each bufferline. Couldn't get much simpler. (If you know that you'd be getting a particular TOC's service and know beforehand where the "sub-terminal" for that TOC is located, it's of course an improvement over last minute running to the other side of the shed, say KGX's pfm. zero; but for a first-timer - like at "STP International?" - visible and non-confusing signage is paramount in these circumstances.)

And the map also shows that the (especially) non-international services have been moved exactly the length of the "old shed" away from, for example, the LU stations - all the domestic service platforms end under the flat-topped extension.

Yes they are, because there's no point putting them any further back. Domestic train sets are less than half the length of E* sets so, if the stops for all the sections were at the same point, (i.e. south end of the Barlow Shed), you'd need about an extra 800m of plain track (200m x4, 2x up 2x down). What's the point? More expense for the installation of it, more expense of the upkeep of it.
You can't put EMT & SET side by side because either EMT would have to cross HS1 (more expensive complicated trackwork) or SET would be between EMT & E* which would mean pushing the EMT platforms further west and building across Midland Road, which would not be acceptable to the residents of the flats there.
Oh, and the work required if you had platforms outside the main shed at the south end would again cause problems with the fabric of the building, giving you the headache of dealing with English Heritage again.

So, with all that in mind, what would you do?

 

[jopsuk]

There are two escalators but most people seem determined to use the first one. I always leave them to it and use the second one. As I am not going into the shops it does not really matter.

The second set of escalators are non-obvious if you don't know the station and are in a big crowd- plus if you're connecting to Thameslink, SET, the deep tube lines or Kings Cross they take you further from where you want to go. Plus, if you want to go to any of those (or are coming from them) it's a 180° turn- always fun in a crowd with luggage at the bottom of an escalator. They appear to have decided with the access to the EMT "sub terminal" that people will only want to go to Eurostar or the "sub surface" underground.

 

[jon0844]

The signage:
I really can't see how anyone struggles with it. My wife came into St. P for the first time (and she rarely travels by train), yet she managed to find her way to the ticket office to meet me.
Follow signs for National rail, then they separate into signs for the individual TOCs nearer their platforms. or use the touch-screen information points.

I disagree. The signs are inconsistent and seem to have been created by different people who aren't conforming to any sort of style guide. I've seen the guides for TfL and they're massive - and every single sign has to be designed in a specific way. They stick rigidly to it, and the tube is all the better for it.

That said, some signs have been updated and changed (but I still think they're poor for the FCC platforms, including the use of the displays). It's still a nonsense to have two individual ticket offices, even though we know why that is. For Joe Public it just looks stupid. Still, at least they've made them both say UK Rail Tickets with the same sized text and font.

And the departure boards require you to stand back miles to read them! Okay, you won't need to do that as they're divided into TOCs - but that's only good for people who know that there are four individual train operators and which one it is they want/need.

Another example of bad design with insufficient user testing - or ignoring the feedback given (and I was at St Pancras before the station opened for that very thing) is Heathrow T5. This has been proven to be the case as BAA has since put in more, and started to hand out maps. If you need maps or 'information points' then you've probably failed with the signage.

But, despite these relatively minor issues, it's a fantastic station. The shops are quite upmarket, which is deliberate, and it creates a nice feel. However, for one, I'm not sure they'll be able to keep the premium feel forever - I am sure one day they'll break and allow BK or McDonald's in!

Secondly, I think that the romance is perhaps over, or will be, and people won't be going there to have an expensive meal or champagne before travelling. I can see how in future years, we'll hopefully have international travel being as easy as any other travel. I know Eurostar can play on the whole 'romantic weekend to Paris' thing, but we ultimately want to be able to go all over Europe easily. I just hope that there are plans for how to expand St Pancras in the next 10, 20 or 30 years!

 

[gordonthemoron]

how successful is the champagne bar? there never seem many people there when I pass it

 

[jon0844]

I've been there a few times (taken there as a guest) and the prices are very high - so they don't need the place to be packed to survive, especially as they now have the restaurant which they'd probably rather you go to, spending even more.

The champagne bar is certainly a lot less busy than it used to be (anyone remember the queues when it first opened?) which is why I'm sticking to my theory that the romance has been lost a little, and will continue to do so.

That said, maybe in the autumn/winter months, it will pick up again.

 

[At_traction]

Yes they are, because there's no point putting them any further back.

That'd be just what we need, more bl**dy walking.

Domestic train sets are less than half the length of E* sets so, if the stops for all the sections were at the same point, (i.e. south end of the Barlow Shed), you'd need about an extra 800m of plain track (200m x4, 2x up 2x down). What's the point? More expense for the installation of it, more expense of the upkeep of it.

That's what building railway stations is nevertheless about. I doubt that without these (very real and very well presented) limitations the cost of track in itself would have detracted from a more "linear" platform end in the finalized design.

The main gripe in my previous message was that I am simply not totally convinced that the signage within especially such a subdivided station is clearly-defined enough. Using different colours (say, yellow-backed signs) with slightly larger (upper-case?) typeface to properly differentiate the way to different TOC sections as one approaches along the long hall from Euston Rd. might in itself help somewhat.

Oh, and the work required if you had platforms outside the main shed at the south end would again cause problems with the fabric of the building, giving you the headache of dealing with English Heritage again.

So, with all that in mind, what would you do?

I'm not a paid to consult on this particular station (sighs of relief all around ), but your command is my wish:

An alternative layout version w/ an integrated 21st Century platform shed
(version 'Arthur "Two Sheds" Jackson' for any Monty Pythonists).

Platform level: (http://www.railforums.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=2990&stc=1&d=1282284149)
Domestic platforms yanked closer to the Euston Rd. entrance with the shopping arcade lightwell eliminated, Euro platforms moved westward and SE platforms inserted into the remaining space in the original shed. A newbuild structure for EM platforms to the west of Barlow and right next to Chambers (the first popped veins at the Heritage). The platforms and viaduct to the north of Barlow curved to avoid as much as possible the residential buildings at Midland Rd.

Separate interior connections to the domestic TOC terminals, but within a visually connected hallspace (see Street level); direct connection from the Chambers forecourt to both domestic platforms. Euro platforms segregated due to passport & customs thingies, but visible behind a glass wall (the Champs bar might also be here, at the far end of the Euro platform or within Chambers structure). The domestic platforms outside Barlow completely covered by a unified, curved "trough" glass canopy (more burst veins) - Euro platform ends outside the canopy covered by separate awnings.

Street level: (http://www.railforums.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=2991&stc=1&d=1282284172)
Entry directly to a retail-infested hall with ticketing, TOC lounges/waiting facilities and connections to domestic platforms all easily orientated. Euro services lounges/facilities within a separate unit next to the hall with a connection to the platforms through segregated escalators. So, not much walking so far. Unfortunately some of the common facilities are deeper within the confines of Barlow basement, but still not as far back as now, even if Euro services would actually take more space than presented. Thameslink entrance is where it is now.

The original colonnade of the barrel storage vaults of course makes the hall space anything but a 1960s Euston experience, with 16 bays within the width of the shed. (If natural downlight is seen as a necessity, opaque large-scale floor glass blocks are cheap (not) and portions of Barlow platforms can be replaced with these to provide additional "nicety".) Street traffic circulation, parking etc. probably largely like now.

Roof projection & axonometric architectural presentation:
(http://www.railforums.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=2992&stc=1&d=1282284182)(http://www.railforums.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=2993&stc=1&d=1282284191)
Self-explanatory + complete brain hemorrhaging at the Heritage at this moment.
(Although the stylistic difference between the Barlow shed and EM platform canopy right next to it on the west side can be explained away similarly to Arup's flat top being "a new and unashamedly modern structure", just like Barlow's original was when compared to Scott's neo-Gothic extravagance.)

 

[NR Bloke]

If you think st pancras is bad go across the road to the London Terminus of the Yorkshire Branch Railway. The "northern experience" in London: Filthy dirty, 1970s catering experience (BK, Whistlestop and whatever the baguette shops called).
People sitting on the floor because theres no where else>
Filthy dirty toilets that you have to pay to use.Last minute boarding of trains.

That rather neatly avoids the vast construction site alongside the station which addresses all of those issues - Work there coming along nicely by the look of things at present

 

[jopsuk]

An alternative layout version w/ an integrated 21st Century platform shed
(version 'Arthur "Two Sheds" Jackson' for any Monty Pythonists)

I've got a "tweak" to this- if the SE platforms are going to be wholly within the shed, what about swapping them relative to the Eurostar platforms? This puts all the domestic upper level platforms together, making the Eurstar section less of a barrier- it would even then be possible to have an "outer" end domestic gateline feeding into a distributor corridor with escalators/lifts to all the domestic platforms, including Thameslink, whilst still having an "inner" gateline at the hotel end.

 

[Invincibles]

When you look at the site from the air it is pretty clear that not much else could be done.

There is limited room on the MML side, and certainly not enough to extend the platforms southwards towards the end point.

There does look to be room on the SET side for more platforms,but these would have to be staggered slightly further from the end in order to leave the old pumphouse looking building in place. If there were to be shorter length international services then this could be an option to move SET further over and use the current SET for international shorter units. Unlikely to do that.

The more I think about it the more I think that things were done in the right way, albeit not ideal.

 

[At_traction]

I've got a "tweak" to this- if the SE platforms are going to be wholly within the shed, what about swapping them relative to the Eurostar platforms? This puts all the domestic upper level platforms together, making the Eurstar section less of a barrier- it would even then be possible to have an "outer" end domestic gateline feeding into a distributor corridor with escalators/lifts to all the domestic platforms, including Thameslink, whilst still having an "inner" gateline at the hotel end.

Sh*te, I read EM2's message incompletely in that case as I got the impression that all switching between the TOCs would lead to crossover problems. Apparently it was only the EM which cannot change platform locations with the Euro. In that case even better, because the separateness of the domestic platforms was, after all, one of the biggest problems in the layout. Good point.

: switching brains on :

 

[EM2]

The main gripe in my previous message was that I am simply not totally convinced that the signage within especially such a subdivided station is clearly-defined enough. Using different colours (say, yellow-backed signs) with slightly larger (upper-case?) typeface to properly differentiate the way to different TOC sections as one approaches along the long hall from Euston Rd. might in itself help somewhat.

Again, you run into the immovable object of EH. I suggested that a vinyl be applied along the bottom edge of the PIS screens to differentiate between the TOCs and was told EH said no to that...

I'm not a paid to consult on this particular station (sighs of relief all around ), but your command is my wish:

Wow...I am seriously impressed. You haven't thought about this much
I hate to rain on your parade, but...
Where you want to put the EMT platforms, there is an extension for the hotel (where the crane is in Invincibles' post)
and at street level is the 'energy centre' where all the generators pumps etc live. And the delivery yard for all the deliveries to the shops. And the taxi rank.
Where you have 'connecting traffic' at street level, that's the coach park and car park.
You have fewer E* platforms, which bearing in mind the opening-up of HS1 to other TOCs isn't going to work.

Fair do's to you for putting that amount of effort and thought into it though!

 

[Geezertronic]

When you look at the site from the air it is pretty clear that not much else could be done.

I can see one of my work's offices in that pic, has a good view of Kings Cross from the 7th Floor (top right ish)

 

[At_traction]

Again, you run into the immovable object of EH. I suggested that a vinyl be applied along the bottom edge of the PIS screens to differentiate between the TOCs and was told EH said no to that...

Funny how Heritage feels that modern-day signage in a modernized station portion is any of their business...

Where you want to put the EMT platforms, there is an extension for the hotel (where the crane is in Invincibles' post)

Well, I used the info from Arup's description of the station design from 2004 as a template so I cannot react to what I don't know...
The platforms will have to move back any required distance then, I'm afraid. Luckily there's still open space along the hall/corridor for that.

at street level is the 'energy centre' where all the generators pumps etc live.

OK, so that is what the gray area in the layout plan is. Immovable object. The EM platforms indeed will be moved back as that one won't budge anywhere.

And the delivery yard for all the deliveries to the shops. And the taxi rank.
Where you have 'connecting traffic' at street level, that's the coach park and car park.

Well, as soon as I get paid for the commission, I'll incorporate all the usage needs as per spaces program - including internal and external circulatory designs/calculations and space requirements (delivery truck's turning radius? "grreat"). This was simply a fast, half-a*sed throw-up.

You have fewer E* platforms, which bearing in mind the opening-up of HS1 to other TOCs isn't going to work.

But there are the six Euro platforms currently built. See the section(s) in the Arup file. That's all this redesign of the situation as per 2010 can (or has to ) address.

What changes would the HS1 user "expansion" at STP bring to the operations/platform arrangements? I'd think that all the SE platforms, for example, can be used by the Javelin at the moment?

 

[jopsuk]

Ideally, a brand new terminal with frontage on Euston road would have been perfect. Perhaps move the British Library elsewhere. Would have required a lot of demoltion I appreciate, and a lot of land purchace. Have the High speed lines cross over the MML before a split between domestic and International, with a dedicated International terminal with more platforms. Then, whilst sweeping away large parts of Camden, the terminal for the GB High Speed- both the SET services and ones to The North- would slot between London International and Euston. Shuffle Euston Square underground along a bit to make it more useful, and connect the lot with a long passageway (with travellators). Connectivity to the West and East by the Circle, the South and South East by Thameslink (and Circle) and South West by the Cross River Tram... pipe dreams.

Imagine showing it on the Tube Map though- especially with two sets of platforms on the Circle- "Kings Cross St Pancras Euston Somers Town International"

 

[At_traction]

When you look at the site from the air it is pretty clear that not much else could be done.

There is limited room on the MML side, and certainly not enough to extend the platforms southwards towards the end point.

See the situation from the air. (I couldn't make the direct link from MultiMap work with a more up-to-date photo.)
The only proper problem is at the residential area, which is why the station is curved in the first place. Even the tracks can be partly cantilevered for a section if Midland Rd. route in the straight portion of the EM platform is seen to be immovable - which I see as unlikely, given all the change taken place in the area.

There does look to be room on the SET side for more platforms,but these would have to be staggered slightly further from the end in order to leave the old pumphouse looking building in place.

That choice I myself discounted immediately. The pumphouse location (as well as the hotel further ahead) removes any possibility of extension to the east. IMO.

The more I think about it the more I think that things were done in the right way, albeit not ideal.

I'd rather say, cheapest, least interfering - or daring - (engineering- and architecture-wise) choice. Admittedly, curving the station is the only way I found to deal with the daunting set of limitations, but AFAIK there's still "breathing space" for the tenants...
But that's the nature of supplementary construction/architecture, existing situation can be seen as a hindrance or a hair-thin opportunity.

 

[Any Permitted]

Even if it is a shopping centre with a train station attatched it's still an absolutely stunning renovation. Personally I don't have a problem with all the shops, no-one is forcing me to shop in them and the Foyles is really handy to be honest.

I'm always a bit baffled when people complain about there being so much retail. Do they not want the railway to be sustainable? Money doesn't come from thin air (unless you happen to be a Labour chancellor) so it's a perfect sensible idea to reclaim it from rents. It doesn't detract from the station (except maybe those irritating stands in the centre of the concourse giving out leaflets) and most people probably like the wide range of shops and places to eat.

 

[b0b]

When you look at the site from the air it is pretty clear that not much else could be done.

Good god is the add on box ugly!!!! Is there a better station facade though than St Pancras. Wonderful!

 

[yorksrob]

Even if it is a shopping centre with a train station attatched it's still an absolutely stunning renovation. Personally I don't have a problem with all the shops, no-one is forcing me to shop in them and the Foyles is really handy to be honest.

I'm always a bit baffled when people complain about there being so much retail. Do they not want the railway to be sustainable? Money doesn't come from thin air (unless you happen to be a Labour chancellor) so it's a perfect sensible idea to reclaim it from rents. It doesn't detract from the station (except maybe those irritating stands in the centre of the concourse giving out leaflets) and most people probably like the wide range of shops and places to eat.

Yes, I find the new St Pancras a wonderful place to loiter waiting for a train. It's certainly a million times better than confining the platforms to a dingy underground dungeon which is the usual solution.

 

[swt_passenger]

Good god is the add on box ugly!!!! Is there a better station facade though than St Pancras. Wonderful!

It is ugly in that shot, but as per the design aims it really is practically invisible when viewed end on from the NLL and Hampstead Heath direction, and in the Arup report (linked above) they mention that it can hardly be seen from within the train shed, especially from the buffer stops...

 

[b0b]

Yeah, it doesn't seem that noticeable in pictures, I haven't been to the Eurostar'd St Pancras, but the pictures on Flickr are nothing short of spectacular, especially the roof....

 

[LE Greys]

Good god is the add on box ugly!!!! Is there a better station facade though than St Pancras. Wonderful!

I don't like it much from inside either. The old trainshed has a wonderful, uplifting sense to it, and even did so through all the grime and dinginess before the rebuilding. The extension looks like an overgrown version of Stansted Airport from inside. Stansted is good by airport standards, but that's not saying much. I suppose they couldn't have simply built some open platforms with copies of Midland canopies, it had to be under cover. Perhaps they could have done something about that bland white colour (why is everything painted white these days anyway? It's boring!). Then, why not add some Midland touches, like wrought ironwork instead of glass for the balcony sections around the big hole?