UK face coverings discussion

[Richard Scott]

Why is this country so that obsessed with masks, you'd think they were the knight in shining armour. Think too many people in high places have taken masks to be just this though and implementing them everywhere. Just putting them on and off all the time could be worsening the spread not helping. Another issue we need to get a grip on.

 

[bramling]

Why is this country so that obsessed with masks, you'd think they were the knight in shining armour. Think too many people in high places have taken masks to be just this though and implementing them everywhere. Just putting them on and off all the time could be worsening the spread not helping. Another issue we need to get a grip on.

This is what royally hacks me off with masks. I spent the first half of the year making the effort to get into the habit of washing / sanitising hands, and not touching the face (which isn’t an easy habit to get out of), and of course cut out a load of activities where more likely to pick up Covid - for example little eating out, no pubs, no leisure trips by train, scaling back on seeing friends and relatives, etc.

Then the bumbling piece of piffle brings something in which as far as I’m concerned completely wrecks some of this.

I’m fast approaching the point where it’s time to start deliberately doing the opposite of complying with his stupid measures, especially now they seem to be properly losing it as a functioning government.

The day Boris makes that journey out of no.10 towards Buckingham Palace I am going to be there jeering good riddance at him.

 

[Grecian 1998]

Not in the UK but interesting to note that Paris and Madrid have mandated masks outdoors and run out of places to mandate them... yet infections still keep rising. This suggests one or more of six things:

1. Masks work in practice and without them hospitalisations and deaths would make Lombardy in March look trivial.
2. Masks work in practice but too many people are ignoring the rules to render them effective.
3. Masks work in theory but in practice people aren't using them correctly, rendering them useless.
4. Masks work in theory but people experience a placebo effect thinking it means everything is fine, meaning social distancing goes out of the window, rendering their effect somewhat neutral.
5. Masks work to a limited effect in practice, reducing the severity of infections, which reduces the burden on health services and may help with herd immunity.
6. Masks are pointless in theory and practice.

I suspect a combination of 3, 4 and 5 is likely. 2 would be difficult to determine unless you can read fluent French or Spanish, so you can read news sources in their native language. Although it does seem apparent a lot of Europe is disregarding public health edicts, not just the UK.

It's clear masks work in a surgical context, but most people do not use them that way and frankly it's unlikely they will unless the disease becomes a threat to the survival of the human species. I have heard it suggested that the public should be educated in how to use masks correctly. However given the majority of people seem to be complying with the law because it is the law and no other reason, and there is no way of checking this, I doubt many people would take much notice.

In any case, if everyone threw away contaminated masks as often as medical staff are required to do, the amount of plastic waste in the oceans would make the commentary in Blue Planet look like a time of unbridled optimism.

 

[DustyBin]

Not in the UK but interesting to note that Paris and Madrid have mandated masks outdoors and run out of places to mandate them... yet infections still keep rising. This suggests one of five things:

1. Masks work in practice and without them hospitalisations and deaths would make Lombardy in March look trivial.
2. Masks work in practice but too many people are ignoring the rules to render them effective.
3. Masks work in theory but in practice people aren't using them correctly, rendering them useless.
4. Masks work in theory but people experience a placebo effect thinking it means everything is fine, meaning social distancing goes out of the window, rendering their effect somewhat neutral.
5. Masks work to a limited effect in practice, reducing the severity of infections, which reduces the burden on health services and may help with herd immunity.
6. Masks are pointless in theory and practice.

I suspect a combination of 3, 4 and 5 is likely. 2 would be difficult to determine unless you can read fluent French or Spanish, so you can read news sources in their native language. Although it does seem apparent a lot of Europe is disregarding public health edicts, not just the UK.

It's clear masks work in a surgical context, but most people do not use them that way and frankly it's unlikely they will unless the disease becomes a threat to the survival of the human species. I have heard it suggested that the public should be educated in how to use masks correctly. However given the majority of people seem to be complying with the law because it is the law and no other reason, and there is no way of checking this, I doubt many people would take much notice.

In any case, if everyone threw away contaminated masks as often as medical staff are required to do, the amount of plastic waste in the oceans would make the commentary in Blue Planet look like a time of unbridled optimism.

I actually agree with you that 3, 4 and 5 are the most likely scenarios, but with the addition of ‘properly fitted and used surgical grade masks’. Most of what people are wearing are quite possibly doing more harm than good....

 

[LAX54]

I actually agree with you that 3, 4 and 5 are the most likely scenarios, but with the addition of ‘properly fitted and used surgical grade masks’. Most of what people are wearing are quite possibly doing more harm than good....

I go along with 3, 4 and 5 too, although 5 to a lesser extent, They are worn in Hospitals, but not in the way the public do, with the public you only have to stand in the street for 10 to 15 mins, and study those walking by, or into shops.
They fiddle with them, They wear the blue disposable's inside out (white on the outside), under the nose, etc
The disposable's are they say for a maximum use of 3 hours no more, less if they get damp, ideally chucked after taking them off after the first use I was told, but how many faded and tatty ones have you seen, that have been worn amd worn, stuffed in pockets, purses etc ?
Then you have a scarf, which I suppose just about works, but must be the least effective, and the fabric washable masks, but how often are they washed ? or just left in the glove box, or the pocket ?
We must also remember that close contact is still defined as less than 1 metre for more than 15 mins, don't recall WHO ever changing that ?

What is worrying is that some kids have been scared stiff with all this, was in Gloucester a few months back in a a Mall, Parent and youn girl walking up to a shop, girl must have been about 12 or so, I was waiting outside a store for the wife to come out, Girl stopped dead in her tracks, looked terrified, did not want to walk past me, or another person there waiting too, Parent said we will wait here, we both had to move away a good few feet beofore the girl would walk forward, but it was the look in her eyes that I remember... just so very scared ! what will heppen to her in a few years ? and many others too

 

[bramling]

I go along with 3, 4 and 5 too, although 5 to a lesser extent, They are worn in Hospitals, but not in the way the public do, with the public you only have to stand in the street for 10 to 15 mins, and study those walking by, or into shops.
They fiddle with them, They wear the blue disposable's inside out (white on the outside), under the nose, etc
The disposable's are they say for a maximum use of 3 hours no more, less if they get damp, ideally chucked after taking them off after the first use I was told, but how many faded and tatty ones have you seen, that have been worn amd worn, stuffed in pockets, purses etc ?
Then you have a scarf, which I suppose just about works, but must be the least effective, and the fabric washable masks, but how often are they washed ? or just left in the glove box, or the pocket ?
We must also remember that close contact is still defined as less than 1 metre for more than 15 mins, don't recall WHO ever changing that ?

What is worrying is that some kids have been scared stiff with all this, was in Gloucester a few months back in a a Mall, Parent and youn girl walking up to a shop, girl must have been about 12 or so, I was waiting outside a store for the wife to come out, Girl stopped dead in her tracks, looked terrified, did not want to walk past me, or another person there waiting too, Parent said we will wait here, we both had to move away a good few feet beofore the girl would walk forward, but it was the look in her eyes that I remember... just so very scared ! what will heppen to her in a few years ? and many others too

This is what happens when so many people are wearing them just to keep the peace, or more correctly to pacify the types who perhaps might have been better to have spent lockdown bricking up their windows and doors from the inside.

 

[island]

I would concur with 3-4 and a modest amount of 5.

I do read French fluently and mask use there is better than here. Plus they have very limited recognition of exemptions.

 

[Bantamzen]

Not in the UK but interesting to note that Paris and Madrid have mandated masks outdoors and run out of places to mandate them... yet infections still keep rising. This suggests one or more of six things:

1. Masks work in practice and without them hospitalisations and deaths would make Lombardy in March look trivial.
2. Masks work in practice but too many people are ignoring the rules to render them effective.
3. Masks work in theory but in practice people aren't using them correctly, rendering them useless.
4. Masks work in theory but people experience a placebo effect thinking it means everything is fine, meaning social distancing goes out of the window, rendering their effect somewhat neutral.
5. Masks work to a limited effect in practice, reducing the severity of infections, which reduces the burden on health services and may help with herd immunity.
6. Masks are pointless in theory and practice.

I suspect a combination of 3, 4 and 5 is likely. 2 would be difficult to determine unless you can read fluent French or Spanish, so you can read news sources in their native language. Although it does seem apparent a lot of Europe is disregarding public health edicts, not just the UK.

It's clear masks work in a surgical context, but most people do not use them that way and frankly it's unlikely they will unless the disease becomes a threat to the survival of the human species. I have heard it suggested that the public should be educated in how to use masks correctly. However given the majority of people seem to be complying with the law because it is the law and no other reason, and there is no way of checking this, I doubt many people would take much notice.

In any case, if everyone threw away contaminated masks as often as medical staff are required to do, the amount of plastic waste in the oceans would make the commentary in Blue Planet look like a time of unbridled optimism.

Masks work in a surgical context when used with all the other mitigations that are applied in a medical environment. So wash your hands before putting a mask on, don't touch it & if you do replace & wash hands, replaced at least every four hours, and when removed thrown away & hands washed again. Plus there are the other mititgations such as thorough cleaning and sanitation. And this is where pretty much every study of them has taken place. Away from such controlled environments their effectiveness is at best very questionable.

 

[Yew]

Given that all randomised control trials ever undertaken on masks for the transmission of respiratory diseases showed no statistically significant benefit, and no. country has seen a major drop in cases when masks were introduced, I'm going to suggest the simplest answer is 6, that they do nothing.

 

[Huntergreed]

Given that all randomised control trials ever undertaken on masks for the transmission of respiratory diseases showed no statistically significant benefit, and no. country has seen a major drop in cases when masks were introduced, I'm going to suggest the simplest answer is 6, that they do nothing.

Agreed, I imagine they reduce spread by such a minimal amount (if any) that they don't work.

People no longer stay 2 metres apart when they wear a mask.

People constantly touch their face when they wear a mask.

Masks are reused and not washed properly, they're also disgustingly unhygienic, and I completely disagree that something of such nature should ever be mandated without a very solid, conclusive study conducted. It was put in place to give the public confidence (and they've said this is why before), rather than because they actually do anything. Another example of HM Government listening to the very vocal minority rather than the majority.

 

[jumble]

I think he still will, probably with almost no notice.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 15 Oct 2020 ==

"Wearing an exemption badge"? Have TfL now made this mandatory?

I saw one of their station staff wearing one yesterday

 

[43066]

Not in the UK but interesting to note that Paris and Madrid have mandated masks outdoors and run out of places to mandate them... yet infections still keep rising. This suggests one or more of six things:

1. Masks work in practice and without them hospitalisations and deaths would make Lombardy in March look trivial.
2. Masks work in practice but too many people are ignoring the rules to render them effective.
3. Masks work in theory but in practice people aren't using them correctly, rendering them useless.
4. Masks work in theory but people experience a placebo effect thinking it means everything is fine, meaning social distancing goes out of the window, rendering their effect somewhat neutral.
5. Masks work to a limited effect in practice, reducing the severity of infections, which reduces the burden on health services and may help with herd immunity.
6. Masks are pointless in theory and practice.

I suspect a combination of 3, 4 and 5 is likely. 2 would be difficult to determine unless you can read fluent French or Spanish, so you can read news sources in their native language. Although it does seem apparent a lot of Europe is disregarding public health edicts, not just the UK.

It's clear masks work in a surgical context, but most people do not use them that way and frankly it's unlikely they will unless the disease becomes a threat to the survival of the human species. I have heard it suggested that the public should be educated in how to use masks correctly. However given the majority of people seem to be complying with the law because it is the law and no other reason, and there is no way of checking this, I doubt many people would take much notice.

In any case, if everyone threw away contaminated masks as often as medical staff are required to do, the amount of plastic waste in the oceans would make the commentary in Blue Planet look like a time of unbridled optimism.

I’ll go with 6.

No great surprise, that was the established scientific consensus up until the issue became a political football. It is also supported by what we have seen since masks were mandated in many public settings (ie zero difference made).

 

[bramling]

I saw one of their station staff wearing one yesterday

I have a feeling it may well be made mandatory on TFL, though that’s not the case yet. No doubt Khan has probably set in motion some seedy scheme.

I say seedy as I absolutely object to the idea of people being forced to wear identifying badges especially when relating to characteristics like disability. A complete disgrace IMO.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I have a feeling it may well be made mandatory on TFL, though that’s not the case yet. No doubt Khan has probably set in motion some seedy scheme.

I say seedy as I absolutely object to the idea of people being forced to wear identifying badges especially when relating to characteristics like disability. A complete disgrace IMO.

They're already calling themselves out by not wearing a mask. Adding a badge to state they are exempt simply legitimises that and stops dirty looks etc. I don't see a problem.

There is this view in the UK which goes "I want measures to be made for my disability, but I'm unwilling to tell anyone what it is so they can make those measures for me while ensuring those without the disability aren't making my life harder by using them without the disability because they're then not available to me", which is ludicrous.

In Germany, they have the Behindertenausweis which can be shown to prove one has a disability, problem solved. Just like a blue badge but with wider scope. If you want the special measures, show it and you get them.

 

[VauxhallandI]

View attachment 84262View attachment 84263
Top picture is the current sign at the entrance of Tesco with no exemptions mentioned, the second is the one Tesco have confirmed should be up. Although as of 5pm they still haven’t put it up

I complained to Tesco about their sign being non compliant with the law. The first response ignored my point entirely and waffled on about staff wearing masks. It is good to see that today they have written to me confirming that the poster on the right should be up. I look forward to seeing it up later on.

After approx two weeks of conversations with Tesco HQ I have today reported the store for a breach of the law with the council. It is now in the hands of the Environmental Heath team who will be dealing with it.
The Tesco HQ seemed to be dealing with it so either their comms with their store is non existent or the store is incompetent

 

[Yew]

They're already calling themselves out by not wearing a mask. Adding a badge to state they are exempt simply legitimises that and stops dirty looks etc. I don't see a problem.

There is this view in the UK which goes "I want measures to be made for my disability, but I'm unwilling to tell anyone what it is so they can make those measures for me while ensuring those without the disability aren't making my life harder by using them without the disability because they're then not available to me", which is ludicrous.

In Germany, they have the Behindertenausweis which can be shown to prove one has a disability, problem solved. Just like a blue badge but with wider scope. If you want the special measures, show it and you get them.

Forcing disabled people to wear a symbol of their ailments has some unfortunate precedents in 20th Century European History...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Forcing disabled people to wear a symbol of their ailments has some unfortunate precedents in 20th Century European History...

It does, but in this very specific case the benefits would seem to override the downsides.

 

[Yew]

It does, but in this very specific case the benefits would seem to override the downsides.

That the mask zealots wouldn't have to give people the benefit of the doubt, and could harass others with impunity?

 

[bramling]

They're already calling themselves out by not wearing a mask.

No they aren't. Not wearing a mask is the normal state.

Adding a badge to state they are exempt simply legitimises that and stops dirty looks etc. I don't see a problem.

I do. It's degrading.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2020 ==

It does, but in this very specific case the benefits would seem to override the downsides.

What benefits? It still doesn't satisfy some of the mask obsessives, and it legitimises people going round harassing others - or shaming in the words of Cressida Dick. Both these behaviours are generally regarded as undesirable.

 

[43066]

They're already calling themselves out by not wearing a mask. Adding a badge to state they are exempt simply legitimises that and stops dirty looks etc.

Honestly, sometimes it seems like you want to live in a George Orwell novel. Not wearing a mask is a normal state, and does not need to be “legitimised”.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That the mask zealots wouldn't have to give people the benefit of the doubt, and could harass others with impunity?

That people who aren't exempt can no longer get away with falsely claiming it and so not wearing when the law says they must.

No they aren't. Not wearing a mask is the normal state.

Not at the moment it's not.

Honestly, sometimes it seems like you want to live in a George Orwell novel. Not wearing a mask is a normal state, and does not need to be “legitimised”.

It does at present.

 

[A Challenge]

I seems to me that requiring proof of exemption then makes it much easier for the government to expand the mask wearing mandate, maybe that is partly why some people here are so against it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I seems to me that requiring proof of exemption then makes it much easier for the government to expand the mask wearing mandate, maybe that is partly why some people here are so against it?

People seem to be against it primarily because they are anti-mask, which makes some of these arguments very difficult, because those people can't argue on the basis of "If we accept that masks are beneficial, then..." which would make the debate on nuances of masks much better informed.

 

[43066]

People seem to be against it primarily because they are anti-mask, which makes some of these arguments very difficult, because those people can't argue on the basis of "If we accept that masks are beneficial, then..." which would make the debate on nuances of masks much better informed.

And people are anti mask primarily because there’s (still) no evidence that they’re beneficial. But that point no longer seems to matter.

 

[bramling]

People seem to be against it primarily because they are anti-mask, which makes some of these arguments very difficult, because those people can't argue on the basis of "If we accept that masks are beneficial, then..." which would make the debate on nuances of masks much better informed.

The issue with exemptions is just one of a number of very good reasons why masks aren't a good idea. Now where have we heard that turn of phrase before?!

 

[Yew]

People seem to be against it primarily because they are anti-mask, which makes some of these arguments very difficult, because those people can't argue on the basis of "If we accept that masks are beneficial, then..." which would make the debate on nuances of masks much better informed.

So if we ignored the evidence that faces us, we'd be better informed?

 

[Bletchleyite]

So if we ignored the evidence that faces us, we'd be better informed?

No, I just think it'd be more helpful to debate things like how exemptions work on the basis that we are going to have masks, and debate if we are going to have them or not separately.

 

[Yew]

No, I just think it'd be more helpful to debate things like how exemptions work on the basis that we are going to have masks, and debate if we are going to have them or not separately.

But the two are intertwined, hoe much effort we should put into thinking's through our mask policy is entirely dependent on how effective they are. If they were massively effective, it could be justified to ensure that exemptions have medical proof, as the overall NHS burden would be worth it; however if their benefit is as questionable as it is, then the case for loading the NHS with exemption appointments is less solid.

 

[35B]

But the two are intertwined, hoe much effort we should put into thinking's through our mask policy is entirely dependent on how effective they are. If they were massively effective, it could be justified to ensure that exemptions have medical proof, as the overall NHS burden would be worth it; however if their benefit is as questionable as it is, then the case for loading the NHS with exemption appointments is less solid.

No, your arguments on exemptions would be a whole load more credible if they weren’t transparently rooted in your disagreement with masks.

 

[bramling]

No, your arguments on exemptions would be a whole load more credible if they weren’t transparently rooted in your disagreement with masks.

It's a perfectly legitimate disagreement to find it unacceptable for people with exemptions to be exposed to being singled out or abused as a result of this policy. This is, of course, one of a number of issues with masks - it's by no means the only one.