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Proof of disability

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ladybird23

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I have appealed a penalty notice on behalf of my adult son, who has multiple learning difficulties, autism and MS. They have asked for documentary proof that he suffers from autism, but we have no piece of paper that says "This person is autistic". He was born that way and wasn't given a label! He receives Disability Living Allowance. It may be that I can get some sort of proof from his GP but with the current situation, I know I won't be able to get that within the timeframe required. My problem is that there are no contact details for the penalty fares service so that I can ask what type of documentary evidence they require, or to explain that I may be able to get something from his GP but it will take some time. It seems the only way to contact is in writing at their postal address, which it looks like I'm going to have to do - I just wondered if anyone on here had any contact details or advice. Thanks in advance.
 
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eastwestdivide

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Presumably in connection with a Disabled Persons Railcard?

Does this page clarify the eligibility:
The Disabled Persons Railcard is for people with a disability that makes travelling by train difficult.
You will qualify if you:
  • receive Personal Independence Payments (PIP)
  • receive Disability Living Allowance(DLA) at either:
    • the higher or lower rate for the mobility component, or
    • the higher or middle rate for the care component
 

ainsworth74

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Could you perhaps give a bit more detail as to the background of what's gone on here? In particular a time line of events that have happened so far might be useful (for instance when was the Penalty Fare issued, what did you do in response and when, what organisation are you actually in correspondence with at the moment, etc) as well as some idea of what happened during the original incident (Where was it? What happened? Why was a Penalty Fare issued?). I'm sure we'll be able to provide some assistance but it would be useful to have a bit more detail.
 

30907

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I have appealed a penalty notice on behalf of my adult son, who has multiple learning difficulties, autism and MS. They have asked for documentary proof that he suffers from autism, but we have no piece of paper that says "This person is autistic". He was born that way and wasn't given a label! He receives Disability Living Allowance. It may be that I can get some sort of proof from his GP but with the current situation, I know I won't be able to get that within the timeframe required. My problem is that there are no contact details for the penalty fares service so that I can ask what type of documentary evidence they require, or to explain that I may be able to get something from his GP but it will take some time. It seems the only way to contact is in writing at their postal address, which it looks like I'm going to have to do - I just wondered if anyone on here had any contact details or advice. Thanks in advance.
Does the DLA award mention anything relevant? If so, submitting that might help.
 

ainsworth74

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Does the DLA award mention anything relevant? If so, submitting that might help.

DLA decision notices aren't usually all that detailed regarding health conditions. It'll be a few pages long laying out what the award is and some short commentary on why that decision has been made (which may refer to specific health conditions but not always). It will certainly be better than nothing though to be clear!
 

Y Ddraig Coch

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Are they even allowed to question a disability card?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

I have appealed a penalty notice on behalf of my adult son, who has multiple learning difficulties, autism and MS. They have asked for documentary proof that he suffers from autism, but we have no piece of paper that says "This person is autistic". He was born that way and wasn't given a label! He receives Disability Living Allowance. It may be that I can get some sort of proof from his GP but with the current situation, I know I won't be able to get that within the timeframe required. My problem is that there are no contact details for the penalty fares service so that I can ask what type of documentary evidence they require, or to explain that I may be able to get something from his GP but it will take some time. It seems the only way to contact is in writing at their postal address, which it looks like I'm going to have to do - I just wondered if anyone on here had any contact details or advice. Thanks in advance.

Did he have a disabled persons card? Or did he use the discount but without the card? Some more details are needed.
 

ladybird23

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Thanks everyone - I'm not absolutely sure how this all happened to be honest! It's very complicated - my son is staying with me on the south coast, although he normally lives independently but with support in London. After months of not going anywhere, we were due to meet some family members but the day before I had a bit of an accident and injured my knee so I couldn't travel. My son does travel in London and I ( a bit reluctantly) judged that he could do the journey to meet his cousins. When he got to the station the ticket office was closed. There's a machine but it's in the car park on the opposite side of the station so he wouldn't have seen it. He got on the train and it seems he started to get very anxious as the person opposite wasn't wearing a mask. He moved and then started, I think, to get confused and even more anxious. When he was asked for his ticket he gave them his freedom pass which he uses in London. He was told he couldn't use it and then gave them his debit card - I'd give him my debit card as I knew he didn't have enough money in his account, but I think by this time he was anxious, confused and scared and forgot he had my card. Yes, probably I made the wrong call, but he'd been looking forward to this and I thought I was doing the right thing (as a Mum). On balance I felt he needed to get out and see someone other than me. Normally he probably would have been ok, but I suppose having not gone anywhere for four months the whole thing overwhelmed him a bit. I appealed the next day and received the reply yesterday saying they needed evidence of his autism Probably I'll just have to pay - and I probably shouldn't have let him do the journey - hindsight is a wonderful thing! I now just have 7 days to provide something and I know I won't be able to get anything from his GP in that timeframe. (He doesn't have a Disabled Railcard as he is normally just travelling with his freedom pass).
 

gray1404

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Where did he travel from and to (station names)? Roughly at what point on the journey was he stopped? What date and rough time? What was he issued with at the time and what was appealed? Was it a penalty fare, unpaid fares notice or were his details taken and a letter has been received asking for an explanation? Finally, what is the name of the company or organisation that has asked you for proof of disability?

If you could provide this information in list form that would be great. We need to focus on establishing some key facts.
 

Y Ddraig Coch

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Where did he travel from and to (station names)? Roughly at what point on the journey was he stopped? What date and rough time? What was he issued with at the time and what was appealed? Was it a penalty fare, unpaid fares notice or were his details taken and a letter has been received asking for an explanation? Finally, what is the name of the company or organisation that has asked you for proof of disability?

If you could provide this information in list form that would be great. We need to focus on establishing some key facts.

It sounds as though he forgot he had his mums debit card, used his own which declined so had no way to pay for a ticket.
 

Tetchytyke

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It sounds like he's been issued a PF because he didn't buy a ticket at the departure station.

TOCs' disabled persons policies allow exemptions from this for people who can't use self-service machines due to disability. This is regardless of whether the disabled person's railcard is held, so the railcard is a red herring.

This will be why they are asking for evidence, to see if it applies in this case.

I would say that the DLA/PIP award letter would suffice for this purpose, particularly if he receives the mobility component. Send that with a covering letter/email, perhaps highlighting parts of the report which shows cognitive impairment, and see what they say.
 

ladybird23

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He was given a Penalty Fare Notice. Travelling from Birchington to Dartford. 2nd October at 16.52 - it says issued at Dartford Station and it just says "No Ticket". I appealed online using the form (South Eastern trains). Penalty Services have replied to me by email with a letter as an attachment - this letter asks for proof of his autism. The email address it was sent from is one of the unmonitored addresses so I can't reply to that. There's no email address or phone number on the letter, just a postal address. I've spoken to South Eastern trains customer service but Penalty Services are independent and all they could do was give me the same postal address - no other contact details. The letter does give an email address to which you can send documentary evidence - I tried using this and asking what they needed and explaining that I would need more time to try and get something from his GP, but I got an automated reply saying that any email without documentary evidence attached would be ignored.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Thank you Tetchytyke. Unfortunately, although I have some very old DWP letters, all his correspondence is at his home address in London as his support worker usually helps with this kind of thing. It would actually cost more to get to London to access them than the penalty charge! I just need to find a way of explaining this to them and I guess writing a letter and posting it is my only choice right now. I just seem to have found myself in one of those frustrating situations where everything I need to do isn't that simple.
 
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WesternLancer

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He was given a Penalty Fare Notice. Travelling from Birchington to Dartford. 2nd October at 16.52 - it says issued at Dartford Station and it just says "No Ticket". I appealed online using the form (South Eastern trains). Penalty Services have replied to me by email with a letter as an attachment - this letter asks for proof of his autism. The email address it was sent from is one of the unmonitored addresses so I can't reply to that. There's no email address or phone number on the letter, just a postal address. I've spoken to South Eastern trains customer service but Penalty Services are independent and all they could do was give me the same postal address - no other contact details. The letter does give an email address to which you can send documentary evidence - I tried using this and asking what they needed and explaining that I would need more time to try and get something from his GP, but I got an automated reply saying that any email without documentary evidence attached would be ignored.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Thank you Tetchytyke. Unfortunately, although I have some very old DWP letters, all his correspondence is at his home address in London as his support worker usually helps with this kind of thing. It would actually cost more to get to London to access them than the penalty charge! I just need to find a way of explaining this to them and I guess writing a letter and posting it is my only choice right now. I just seem to have found myself in one of those frustrating situations where everything I need to do isn't that simple.
Yes, DLA award letter should help. I wonder if you can contract the DLA unit (at Balckpool I think) to see if they could issue you / him a copy by e-mail (I have found them quite helpful but no idea if they do that sort of thing), I fear if they will only send by post they will only send it to his address where you still can not get it easily - or maybe is there something like on bank statement that clearly shows the DLA award being paid? I'm saying this having noted your point about difficulty in laying your hands on the DLA award letter at the present time.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

He was given a Penalty Fare Notice. Travelling from Birchington to Dartford. 2nd October at 16.52 - it says issued at Dartford Station and it just says "No Ticket". I appealed online using the form (South Eastern trains). Penalty Services have replied to me by email with a letter as an attachment - this letter asks for proof of his autism. The email address it was sent from is one of the unmonitored addresses so I can't reply to that. There's no email address or phone number on the letter, just a postal address. I've spoken to South Eastern trains customer service but Penalty Services are independent and all they could do was give me the same postal address - no other contact details. The letter does give an email address to which you can send documentary evidence - I tried using this and asking what they needed and explaining that I would need more time to try and get something from his GP, but I got an automated reply saying that any email without documentary evidence attached would be ignored.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

Thank you Tetchytyke. Unfortunately, although I have some very old DWP letters, all his correspondence is at his home address in London as his support worker usually helps with this kind of thing. It would actually cost more to get to London to access them than the penalty charge! I just need to find a way of explaining this to them and I guess writing a letter and posting it is my only choice right now. I just seem to have found myself in one of those frustrating situations where everything I need to do isn't that simple.

I tried using this and asking what they needed and explaining that I would need more time to try and get something from his GP, but I got an automated reply saying that any email without documentary evidence attached would be ignored.

Bit of a long shot but you could write a letter to the GP (on paper) requesting such evidence and then scan and attach a copy of THAT letter to send to the SE Trains e-mail address, before you post or e-mail it to the GP - would at least show them that you are seriously attempting to secure a copy of the proof they are requesting.
 

ainsworth74

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I wonder if you can contract the DLA unit (at Balckpool I think) to see if they could issue you / him a copy by e-mail (I have found them quite helpful but no idea if they do that sort of thing), I fear if they will only send by post they will only send it to his address where you still can not get it easily - or maybe is there something like on bank statement that clearly shows the DLA award being paid?

Extremely unlikely that they'll agree to an email. DWP have a significant aversion to the technology because it's "unsecure" (personally I think it has more to do with it being too convenient and therefore makes it too easy for people to deal with them). They'd be more likely to agree to sending out in the post to a different address to normal as long as the claimant is present to pass security. Even then though I wouldn't bank on it turning up in time for the OP to then post it onto the appeal body.
 

ukkid

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Can you ask his support worker to confirm they provide support because he is autistic /requires support due to disability?
 

SuspectUsual

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If I was you I’d pay the penalty fare, keep the receipt, collate all your evidence, and then send the lot to their customer services people and ask for the mitigation to be considered and for the penalty to be refunded
 

gaillark

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I have appealed a penalty notice on behalf of my adult son, who has multiple learning difficulties, autism and MS.

Can I suggest for future use that you get for your son one of those Sunflower lanyard cards. They should be available from stations. The rail industry has acknowledged that all operators are aware of the scheme that somebody with hidden disabilities may require extra assistance and is not always capable of asking for help.
By having one of these sunflower cards your son should have been in a better position to the way he was treated. As you probably know not all people with autism are the same. My son has autism and also is affected by MS so I entirely understand your situation.

Personally I would not pay a penalty fare but would offer to pay the fare for the journey. That would be reasonable and would state that you could take this matter further with a disability discrimination case. Your son tried to buy a ticket and the office was closed. That initself shows that your son tried to buy a ticket and couldn't. Self service ticket machines are too dificult to operate for some persons with Autism - my son couldn't.
Just becuase you may not have a formal diagnosis of Autism you are in receipt of DLA/PIP which initself is sufficient proof that a person has been recognised by the State as disabled.
I would hold firm and also purchase for your son a disabled persons railcard.

I have no end of battling for my son with the authorities paricularly education and social care over the years. It drains you.
With the DWP you could consider yourself and applying to become his Appointee and all paperwork would come to you.
 

WesternLancer

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If I was you I’d pay the penalty fare, keep the receipt, collate all your evidence, and then send the lot to their customer services people and ask for the mitigation to be considered and for the penalty to be refunded
Notwithstanding the good points made in @gaillark's post #16 I think this is a very good approach to consider taking, esp if it is hard for the OP to get the evidence quickly to support the Appeal - it leave open the ability to appeal to their better nature to get the payment over and above the fare owed refunded as a goodwill gesture.

I see a single Birchington to Dartford is £28.80 before any Railcard reduction is applied.

@ladybird23 : Good luck with this - don't be dissuaded form pursuing it, as a case with regards to a disability that is at a level deemed to meet DLA award requirement (not easy to be eligible for IMHO) deserves to be considered thoroughly within the rail companies disability policy (up to Ombudsman / Transport Focus level if required).

People on this forum will give good advice and comment on texts of draft letters you and your son may need to send if you think that would be of help. And you may need to do this by post if needs be.
 

ladybird23

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Thanks everyone for all your advice, I'm very grateful - and some good ideas here. It's very rare for my son to undertake unusual journeys on his own, and couple that with living through a pandemic which is making life unpleasant and difficult, we just stumbled upon a set of circumstances which will probably never happen again. I've have surprisingly, just received a reply from them to my mail I sent through their address for submitting evidence - no message, no answers to my questions, just another copy of the same letter asking for evidence! Annoying, but at least a bit of ammunition for me to use - I tried to explain our circumstances and the difficulties we would have getting written evidence and they have effectively ignored me and sent me back to where I started. If this ever gets resolved, I will let you know.
 

WesternLancer

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Thanks everyone for all your advice, I'm very grateful - and some good ideas here. It's very rare for my son to undertake unusual journeys on his own, and couple that with living through a pandemic which is making life unpleasant and difficult, we just stumbled upon a set of circumstances which will probably never happen again. I've have surprisingly, just received a reply from them to my mail I sent through their address for submitting evidence - no message, no answers to my questions, just another copy of the same letter asking for evidence! Annoying, but at least a bit of ammunition for me to use - I tried to explain our circumstances and the difficulties we would have getting written evidence and they have effectively ignored me and sent me back to where I started. If this ever gets resolved, I will let you know.
Thanks for update - sadly not surprising. Inflexible adherence to policy at this stage - this is way you will have the frustration of having to keep at it and be prepared to go for an Ombudsman type review at the end of the day - they just don't seem to read and act on stuff unless you send exactly what they want as it were.
Juts reply as required, keep copies of everything you send / screen shots if needs be etc.
EG at this stage write to them saying 'I will seek copies of the proof of disability you require form an appropriate source / agency - ie GP / DWP, I am sure you will understand that this may take a period of time for me to secure. I would be grateful if you could acknowledge this at this stage'
and plough on (this is the sort of thing that you need to to counter any allegation that you ignored their requests to you, if you have to send the papers to the Ombudsman at a later stage for example).

Tho I would suggest Transport Focus would be a better body than the Rail Ombudsman based on experience detailed in other threads here

Are you up against an Appeal deadline date (presume yes, if so what is it?*) and maybe can others advise that if there is a delay whilst sourcing the proofs is the clock still ticking to that deadline or is it deemed to be extended.

This of course being the alternative to the course of action in Post #15 (pay up now, argue about it subsequently).

* Apols I see you have just 7 days to submit the proofs

If you want to pursue the Appeal I'd be writing to them as above now (sent registered post) making it clear that you have to source the proof of disability and may be unable to secure this by the deadline given you are reliant on relevant agencies (NHS / DWP) to provide the documentation required. You trust that they will keep the case open and not take further actions, and can they reply to confirm this.

PS - also I'm not familiar with London Freedom passes, but assume this awarded to your son as a result of disability - if it is clear of that on the card is it possible they would accept an image of this as proof of disability? Is that worth a try - my fear is they would think you are trying to show it as proof of having a ticket - which you would not be, leading to another frustrating exchange....ie they would look at the image not any message - but you could try writing on a piece of paper 'this image of my London Freedom Pass awarded in respect of my disability is submitted as proof of my disabled status and not submitted for the purposes of consideration as a ticket for the journey' put the card next to that message, photo it and upload that?
 
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Daniel740

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What about going to the press? Companies hate negative publicity, especially when it concerns people with disabilities!
 

WesternLancer

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What about going to the press? Companies hate negative publicity, especially when it concerns people with disabilities!
I'd be cautious at this stage. Best done, if at all, when you have exhausted their legitimate processes IMHO - and got nowhere.

Look at it from a dispassionate point of view:

'Disabled person travels without a ticket and gets a penalty fare - submits appeal and is asked to prove their disabled status, and has so far been unable to do that'

There's no story in that really - not yet anyway, as it is not an unreasonable stance for the Railway to take....

The OPs problem is that the process is inflexible when the proof is not to hand, no evidence yet that the Train Company will not accept it when the info is submitted.
 
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Tetchytyke

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Thank you Tetchytyke. Unfortunately, although I have some very old DWP letters, all his correspondence is at his home address in London as his support worker usually helps with this kind of thing.

Can his support worker write you something on letterhead?

It's reasonable for the appeals body to want to see evidence of the disability, for obvious reasons, so you will need to provide something.

If you need longer, write and say so. In the meantime more circumstantial evidence, such as entitlement to the freedom pass, may also help.
 

MikeWh

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PS - also I'm not familiar with London Freedom passes, but assume this awarded to your son as a result of disability - if it is clear of that on the card is it possible they would accept an image of this as proof of disability? Is that worth a try - my fear is they would think you are trying to show it as proof of having a ticket - which you would not be, leading to another frustrating exchange....ie they would look at the image not any message - but you could try writing on a piece of paper 'this image of my London Freedom Pass awarded in respect of my disability is submitted as proof of my disabled status and not submitted for the purposes of consideration as a ticket for the journey' put the card next to that message, photo it and upload that?
Looking at the freedom pass website it appears as though the only difference between the older persons pass and the disabled pass is the colour of the stripe on the right hand side - yellow for disabled, blue for older persons.
 

gray1404

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At least send the old DWP DLA letters you have then at least you are providing something official. If he has a Support Work then perhaps he has a care plan too? Anything from the doctor who made the diagnosis of Autism, no matter how old this is?
 

ladybird23

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Hi everyone. Well I managed to locate a copy of a very old letter from my son's Consultant Neurologist to his GP in which it mentioned that my son had "a history of autism". Pleased to say they accepted this as proof of disability and have cancelled the penalty. I've now paid the correct fare and it's all done & dusted. I'm kicking myself for expecting him to cope with the journey on his own after months stuck inside, but as we're all going a bit stir crazy right now - let alone anyone with mental health problems, I thought it would be good for him to see some other people. That will teach me not to change the battery in the smoke alarm and fall off the steps whilst trying to reach it the day before I'm due to go out. :rolleyes:. Thank you so much for all your advice, you all spurred me on to see it through instead of just caving in just to avoid all the hassle.
 

Haywain

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Hi everyone. Well I managed to locate a copy of a very old letter from my son's Consultant Neurologist to his GP in which it mentioned that my son had "a history of autism". Pleased to say they accepted this as proof of disability and have cancelled the penalty. I've now paid the correct fare and it's all done & dusted. I'm kicking myself for expecting him to cope with the journey on his own after months stuck inside, but as we're all going a bit stir crazy right now - let alone anyone with mental health problems, I thought it would be good for him to see some other people. That will teach me not to change the battery in the smoke alarm and fall off the steps whilst trying to reach it the day before I'm due to go out. :rolleyes:. Thank you so much for all your advice, you all spurred me on to see it through instead of just caving in just to avoid all the hassle.
Good to hear it was relatively straightforward to get it sorted. Now, is it changing the battery you've learnt not to do, or falling off the steps? :D
 

WesternLancer

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Hi everyone. Well I managed to locate a copy of a very old letter from my son's Consultant Neurologist to his GP in which it mentioned that my son had "a history of autism". Pleased to say they accepted this as proof of disability and have cancelled the penalty. I've now paid the correct fare and it's all done & dusted. I'm kicking myself for expecting him to cope with the journey on his own after months stuck inside, but as we're all going a bit stir crazy right now - let alone anyone with mental health problems, I thought it would be good for him to see some other people. That will teach me not to change the battery in the smoke alarm and fall off the steps whilst trying to reach it the day before I'm due to go out. :rolleyes:. Thank you so much for all your advice, you all spurred me on to see it through instead of just caving in just to avoid all the hassle.
Good to hear - thanks for the report back - and FWIW don't kick yourself - I reckon you did the right thing. Hope your son had an enjoyable meet up with family and the incident didn't spoil his day and the enjoyment and value I'm sure they all got from the meet up. Best wishes you to both.
Nice also to see the railway act on the info quickly and 'do the right thing'. I had hoped they would do when they had the info they needed.
 

Hadders

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Pleased that you got a good outcome. As others have said please don't beat yourself up over this. It's cases like this where this forum really comes in to its own and it's great that we've been able to help.
 
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