30ft Bullhead Rail - How much is left?

[sem34090]

This thought came to me just now whilst between Borth and Dovey Junction on the Cambrian Coast where at intervals the number of rail joints doubles. Given that 30ft was, I believe, beginning to be phased out even before the Grouping I found it odd to think that substantial lengths clearly remain!

Any other examples? I think there are a few more places on the Cambrian.

 

[Rob F]

There where some short lengths on the St Ives branch, particularly on the short straight behind Porth Kidney sands, between Lelant and Carbis Bay.

 

[Halish Railway]

Most of the Little Northwestern seems to be jointed track, though I’m not sure whether it’s 30ft or not.

The Bradford-bound line at Frizinghall definitely has 30ft bullhead rail.

 

[adamedwards]

At normal rates of renewal, how long until the main line is all welded rail? Imagine the last ever dum-de-dum rail tour.

 

[LowLevel]

There is a stretch between Swineshead and Hubberts Bridge.

 

[1955LR]

Heart of wales line has jointed sections, but not sure if its Bullhead

 

[507 001]

There’s a number of short sections on the WHL, including the extension and Oban branches.

 

[Merle Haggard]

This thought came to me just now whilst between Borth and Dovey Junction on the Cambrian Coast where at intervals the number of rail joints doubles. Given that 30ft was, I believe, beginning to be phased out even before the Grouping I found it odd to think that substantial lengths clearly remain!

Any other examples? I think there are a few more places on the Cambrian.

I always thought that the joint noise doubling was not due to 30' rails, but was where 60' rails were used but with the joints staggered on each side, i.e., the joint one side opposite the middle of the other rail. Certainly, on some stretches one could feel that the joint was only on one side, but can't remember where.

 

[Halifaxlad]

The Bradford-bound line at Frizinghall definitely has 30ft bullhead rail.

This always amazes me when I pass through Frizinghall!

Apart from this I do remember that they're was a short section of track on the Harrogate line after Armley Jct upon the viaduct, although I think this might have since been replaced with flat bottom.

 

[30907]

Are all these 30ft, or are some 45ft? Some of the latter on the Mallaig Extension...

 

[sem34090]

I always thought that the joint noise doubling was not due to 30' rails, but was where 60' rails were used but with the joints staggered on each side, i.e., the joint one side opposite the middle of the other rail. Certainly, on some stretches one could feel that the joint was only on one side, but can't remember where.

Ah, it could be but to me it felt like they were still as per normal, just doubled. I noticed a few shorter lengths in the station at Machynlleth.

 

[steamybrian]

In the 1990s when the Spa Valley Railway track was being relaid for reopening we came across 39 feet long flat bottom rails. Subsequent enquiries revealed that they were imported from the USA during WW2 as there was a shortage of rails at the time.

Maybe there were some 30 feet bull head rails from the same source...???

 

[ac6000cw]

In the 1990s when the Spa Valley Railway track was being relaid for reopening we came across 39 feet long flat bottom rails. Subsequent enquiries revealed that they were imported from the USA during WW2 as there was a shortage of rails at the time.

Maybe there were some 30 feet bull head rails from the same source...???

I doubt it as the USA has basically always used flat-bottom rail (like most of the world). I think 39 and 78 feet are the standard lengths in the USA for 'stick' or 'bolted' rail (as they call it).

 

[Ploughman]

We removed a quantity of 39ft US BH Rails from the NYMR last year.

 

[MarkyT]

We removed a quantity of 39ft US BH Rails from the NYMR last year.

Interesting. Do you know the age of of it? Possibly a wartime import made especially for UK during WW1 or WW2? I remember being surprised to see old bullhead-like rail in chairs in sidings at a number of small station sites in France some decades ago. Never got close enough to see dates though, assuming it was marked like British products, and have no idea of any still survives.

 

[Ploughman]

Sorry, but no idea as to age and it has all now been scrapped.

 

[MarkyT]

...old bullhead-like rail in chairs in sidings at a number of small station sites in France some decades ago.

A little research reveals French Railways referred to their bullhead rail as 'double champignon' (double mushroom). Makes sense and I guess they'd taste lovely in a nice garlic sauce! I don't know what standard lengths they came in but it's likely to be a round number of metres.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail/media/Fichier:Rail_double_champignon.JPG

Sorry, but no idea as to age and it has all now been scrapped.

OK, thanks anyway. I work in signalling on another heritage railway. I know in the past we've had track materials from old MOD sites and it's highly plausible some US manufactured railway products remained in such places in UK after the two world wars apart from the well-known S160 steam locos.

 

[30907]

The Forum search engine will pick up a number of references to 39ft rail imported from the US during WW2.
TBH I didn't know they existed, and it would IMO be difficult to tell them apart from 45ft rail by ear, whereas the change from 60ft to 45ft is immediately obvious.

 

[topydre]

I've been over Talerddig quite a few times in the company of others who know more than me about the railway! It seems that some of the rails on there are 39ft US rails from WWII, along with normal GWR bullhead of course.
I don't know how much is left now: there's been quite a lot of renewals across Talerddig within the past couple of years (which is actually a good thing in terms of future of the line etc.)

 

[181]

There where some short lengths on the St Ives branch, particularly on the short straight behind Porth Kidney sands, between Lelant and Carbis Bay.

I used that line (for the first time) the week before last and I don't remember noticing it, but I probably wasn't paying attention.

There’s a number of short sections on the WHL, including the extension and Oban branches.

...some 45ft? Some of the latter on the Mallaig Extension...

From memory, there are (unless they've been replaced since I last went that way in 2013) 2 or 3 stretches of short rail on the Mallaig line, the first being just west of the head of Loch Eil near where the line starts climbing towards Glenfinnan; there is one on the Oban line (still there in summer 2019), between Taynuilt and Connel. I don't think there's any between Craigendoran and Fort William (parts of which route are now c.w.r.).

I've always assumed these are 45ft, and I'm guessing they're bullhead, but I don't know either of these things for certain.

Not long ago there was some similar rail between Reedham and Yarmouth (starting about 50 seconds into this video --not mine), but I think the line may now have been relaid.

 

[Rob F]

I used that line (for the first time) the week before last and I don't remember noticing it, but I probably wasn't paying attention.

It may have gone. I haven't been this year but the section from St Erth to Lelant has been re-laid with CWR over the last few years so maybe they have got a bit further,

 

[Tim M]

I always thought that the joint noise doubling was not due to 30' rails, but was where 60' rails were used but with the joints staggered on each side, i.e., the joint one side opposite the middle of the other rail. Certainly, on some stretches one could feel that the joint was only on one side, but can't remember where.

Staggered joints as you describe is normal practice in the USA, in the U.K. parallel joints are standard. There may of course be exceptions. Parallel joints are required for delineating the ends of most types of track circuits. Continuous welded rails are of course a different kettle of fish!

 

[furnessvale]

Staggered joints as you describe is normal practice in the USA, in the U.K. parallel joints are standard. There may of course be exceptions. Parallel joints are required for delineating the ends of most types of track circuits. Continuous welded rails are of course a different kettle of fish!

Once staggered joints start to dip, and it is inevitable that they do, unwanted twist is being introduced into the track geometry. With 10ft wheelbase wagons this was leathal and a concerted effort was made to remove as much as possible.

The (virtual) end of 10ft wheelbase wagons has assisted things but unwanted twist is just that, unwanted, and any remaining staggered joints will still need extra attention.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Once staggered joints start to dip, and it is inevitable that they do, unwanted twist is being introduced into the track geometry. With 10ft wheelbase wagons this was leathal and a concerted effort was made to remove as much as possible.

The (virtual) end of 10ft wheelbase wagons has assisted things but unwanted twist is just that, unwanted, and any remaining staggered joints will still need extra attention.

Thank you for that insight. What I remember about staggered joints is that the coach momentarily tilted slightly first to one side and then (after the next railjoint) to the other, confirming the effect of dipped joints. I can certainly remember several stretches, all on secondary main lines, but it might have been perhaps 40-50 years ago. My (very dim) recollection was that they might have been on gradients - perhaps it was to break up the 'roaring rails' phenomenon.

In the dispute that inevitably followed the derailment of a P.O. wagon on plain track, one owner claimed (I think this was the term) 'cyclic top'. This was, I inferred, to shift blame from wagon design/maintenance deficiencies to B.R.; but is this similar to what you mention? (the wagons were Autics, if it matters)

 

[181]

Once staggered joints start to dip, and it is inevitable that they do, unwanted twist is being introduced into the track geometry.

Results illustrated in this video. (No derailment, but somewhat disconcerting-looking rocking of American bogie wagons)

 

[Wyrleybart]

In the dispute that inevitably followed the derailment of a P.O. wagon on plain track, one owner claimed (I think this was the term) 'cyclic top'. This was, I inferred, to shift blame from wagon design/maintenance deficiencies to B.R.; but is this similar to what you mention? (the wagons were Autics, if it matters)

Cyclic top is attributed to some ESRs which NR disseminate.

 

[AJG3]

Interesting. Do you know the age of of it? Possibly a wartime import made especially for UK during WW1 or WW2? I remember being surprised to see old bullhead-like rail in chairs in sidings at a number of small station sites in France some decades ago. Never got close enough to see dates though, assuming it was marked like British products, and have no idea of any still survives.

I bashed the branch line to Arcachon (near Bordeaux) in 1998; seemed to be almost all bullhead.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 16 Oct 2020 ==

I bashed the branch line to Arcachon (near Bordeaux) in 1998; seemed to be almost all bullhead.

Oops; I meant 1988.

 

[bassmike]

I always thought that the joint noise doubling was not due to 30' rails, but was where 60' rails were used but with the joints staggered on each side, i.e., the joint one side opposite the middle of the other rail. Certainly, on some stretches one could feel that the joint was only on one side, but can't remember where.

Romney Hythe &dymchurch

 

[Richard Scott]

One of the through lines at Gloucester used to be part bullhead, is it still the same? A while since I've been through there.

 

[Merle Haggard]

One of the through lines at Gloucester used to be part bullhead, is it still the same? A while since I've been through there.

Travelling through Gloucester a year or so ago I noticed that a section of the through line had obviously recently been re-laid with bullhead, including new sleepers and new chairs (still un-rusted cast iron grey). I was told that this was because of track geometry near points.