UK face coverings discussion

[Bantamzen]

I am posting an email I sent to a pub co today as I cannot believe what I witnessed

Hi

I visited one of your pubs which I am not going to identify as I do not want to cause trouble for any individual as I imagine they were acting under the instructions of management

I was astonished to witness the following

A party of 4 came in none of whom were wearing masks.

The bar person asked if they had any and upon the party saying no they were sent packing.

The party offered to sit outside and be served at the table there but were still told this was not acceptable and they were sent away like naughty children



Contrast this with another pub I went to recently where my companion did not have a mask

The barperson simply produced a complimentary paper one ( which cost the business 15 pence or so) and we got on with having a pleasant drink.

( Tesco do the same and sell you a mask if you do not have one)



I struggle to understand why any business sector which is really struggling would send customers away rather than either giving away or even selling a mask as I imagine those customers will not be in any hurry to return.



I hope this has been valuable feedback as a really simple way to improve your profitability and viability

My local pubs sells masks for a quid with half going to Macmillan charity.

 

[DB]

Knowing us Brits, just as many will wear masks if the status changes to "optional but recommended"

I doubt it - yes, some will, but many people hate them and only wear them to avoid hassle.

The fact that only a minority were wearing masks right up until it became mandatory is a good indication of how many people would wear them voluntarily.

 

[bramling]

I am posting an email I sent to a pub co today as I cannot believe what I witnessed

Hi

I visited one of your pubs which I am not going to identify as I do not want to cause trouble for any individual as I imagine they were acting under the instructions of management

I was astonished to witness the following

A party of 4 came in none of whom were wearing masks.

The bar person asked if they had any and upon the party saying no they were sent packing.

The party offered to sit outside and be served at the table there but were still told this was not acceptable and they were sent away like naughty children



Contrast this with another pub I went to recently where my companion did not have a mask

The barperson simply produced a complimentary paper one ( which cost the business 15 pence or so) and we got on with having a pleasant drink.

( Tesco do the same and sell you a mask if you do not have one)



I struggle to understand why any business sector which is really struggling would send customers away rather than either giving away or even selling a mask as I imagine those customers will not be in any hurry to return.



I hope this has been valuable feedback as a really simple way to improve your profitability and viability

The hospitality industry really does not want to be upsetting *anyone* at the moment, as they are likely to be the beneficiary of quite a bit of taxpayers money over the next few months. Upsetting people could cause there to be pushback over this.

 

[Ian Cunningham]

The hospitality industry really does not want to be upsetting *anyone* at the moment, as they are likely to be the beneficiary of quite a bit of taxpayers money over the next few months. Upsetting people could cause there to be pushback over this.

I think there is also a feeling within hospitality that they need not only follow the rules/guidelines but need to be seen to be actively enforcing them. The government(s) have made hospitality the current scapegoat for the increase in cases and the industry does not want to give them an more ammunition

 

[DB]

I think there is also a feeling within hospitality that they need not only follow the rules/guidelines but need to be seen to be actively enforcing them. The government(s) have made hospitality the current scapegoat for the increase in cases and the industry does not want to give them an more ammunition

In which case, buying a load of disposable masks and giving them away / selling them for a nominal amount would seem the sensible tactic- turning away business is hardly in their own interests either immediately or in the longer term, when people might not come back as a result of having been turned away once.

 

[43066]

In which case, buying a load of disposable masks and giving them away / selling them for a nominal amount would seem the sensible tactic- turning away business is hardly in their own interests either immediately or in the longer term, when people might not come back as a result of having been turned away once.

It seems the hospitality industry is taking a similar kamikaze approach to the situation as the rail industry, along the lines of: “let’s make up our own rules, rudely enforce them, and actively turn our customers away”.

The difference is that the railway is (for now!) being propped up by the treasury, whereas the hospitality sector is basically hastening its own demise.

 

[WelshBluebird]

I am posting an email I sent to a pub co today as I cannot believe what I witnessed

Hi

I visited one of your pubs which I am not going to identify as I do not want to cause trouble for any individual as I imagine they were acting under the instructions of management

I was astonished to witness the following

A party of 4 came in none of whom were wearing masks.

The bar person asked if they had any and upon the party saying no they were sent packing.

The party offered to sit outside and be served at the table there but were still told this was not acceptable and they were sent away like naughty children



Contrast this with another pub I went to recently where my companion did not have a mask

The barperson simply produced a complimentary paper one ( which cost the business 15 pence or so) and we got on with having a pleasant drink.

( Tesco do the same and sell you a mask if you do not have one)



I struggle to understand why any business sector which is really struggling would send customers away rather than either giving away or even selling a mask as I imagine those customers will not be in any hurry to return.



I hope this has been valuable feedback as a really simple way to improve your profitability and viability

The people presumably knew the rules though surely? It isn't like the rules haven't been communicated in every newspaper, online and on TV.
So the only thing I can think of is that they decided to chance it.
Why should it be on businesses to help people who are trying to chance it when it comes to the rules?
Sure, maybe it would be a good business decision to provide cheap single use masks. But it shouldn't be expected of a pub. People know the rules. They shouldn't try to chance it.

It seems the hospitality industry is taking a similar kamikaze approach to the situation as the rail industry, along the lines of: “let’s make up our own rules, rudely enforce them, and actively turn our customers away”.

Refusing entry for people not wearing masks isn't "making up their own rules" though. It is following the rules that have been laid out by the government.
As I said above - sure you can argue that maybe providing cheap one use masks would be a good business decision, but I don't see how not doing that is "making up their own rules".

 

[DB]

Why should it be on businesses to help people who are trying to chance it when it comes to the rules?

Well, because the purpose of a business is to make money? It's shooting themselves in the foot if they turn customers away for a trivial reason like this which they could easily rectify at little or no cost to themselves (and potentially show good customer sevice in doing so, thereby encouraging repeat visits).

 

[Jamesrob637]

I am posting an email I sent to a pub co today as I cannot believe what I witnessed

Hi

I visited one of your pubs which I am not going to identify as I do not want to cause trouble for any individual as I imagine they were acting under the instructions of management

I was astonished to witness the following

A party of 4 came in none of whom were wearing masks.

The bar person asked if they had any and upon the party saying no they were sent packing.

The party offered to sit outside and be served at the table there but were still told this was not acceptable and they were sent away like naughty children



Contrast this with another pub I went to recently where my companion did not have a mask

The barperson simply produced a complimentary paper one ( which cost the business 15 pence or so) and we got on with having a pleasant drink.

( Tesco do the same and sell you a mask if you do not have one)



I struggle to understand why any business sector which is really struggling would send customers away rather than either giving away or even selling a mask as I imagine those customers will not be in any hurry to return.



I hope this has been valuable feedback as a really simple way to improve your profitability and viability

Stupid pub for not letting them be served outside when they had offered. That's a fair bit of revenue lost and if one/several of that group tell their friends and contacts, word will spread quickly.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Stupid pub for not letting them be served outside when they had offered. That's a fair bit of revenue lost and if one/several of that group tell their friends and contacts, word will spread quickly.

What would they do when they inevitably needed use of the toilet? Use the bushes?

While it might make business sense to sell disposable masks to those who arrive without them and are not exempt, realistically people need to have them to use a pub, whether indoors or out, because they may need to go in briefly and the law requires them to be worn then unless exempt.

So the pub is in the right.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Stupid pub for not letting them be served outside when they had offered. That's a fair bit of revenue lost and if one/several of that group tell their friends and contacts, word will spread quickly.

I suspect the reason why that offer was refused was that they party would have had to pass through the inside of the pub either to use the toilets or to get to the outside space.
Both of which the law currently requires customers to wear a mask to do, unless they are exempt (I am surprised that the group didn't just claim that tbh).

 

[DB]

What would they do when they inevitably needed use of the toilet? Use the bushes?

While it might make business sense to sell disposable masks to those who arrive without them and are not exempt, realistically people need to have them to use a pub, whether indoors or out, because they may need to go in briefly and the law requires them to be worn then unless exempt.

So the pub is in the right.

And I'm sure that being all self-righteous and knowing that they were right will be a great help if they end up going bust!

Hospitality businesses have it really tough at the moment, and those most likely to survive are those who help themselves so far as they can. Throwing away custom unnecessarily is the last thing any of them should be doing.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Well, because the purpose of a business is to make money? It's shooting themselves in the foot if they turn customers away for a trivial reason like this which they could easily rectify at little or no cost to themselves (and potentially show good customer sevice in doing so, thereby encouraging repeat visits).

It is still up to the business though.
Everyone knows the rules, so if you don't follow them I am not sure you can blame the business for that!
Plus, some pubs are fairly busy. Certainly I have been turned away from some because there was no more room. So it isn't like every business is needing every single bit of trade it can get as some are doing as well as they possibly can atm already.

 

[DB]

It is still up to the business though.
Everyone knows the rules, so if you don't follow them I am not sure you can blame the business for that!
Plus, some pubs are fairly busy. Certainly I have been turned away from some because there was no more room. So it isn't like every business is needing every single bit of trade it can get as some are doing as well as they possibly can atm already.

I would suggest that you don't look for a job in customer service...

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 14 Oct 2020 ==

Changing the subject a bit, we've just had some guidance sent round at work about track and trace and there's something in there which I didn't realise: apparently the tracers, when assessing whether someone is at risk of having caught it from a confirmed infectious person, won't take mitigation measures such as masks into account at all, unless they are full medical PPE.

Which does pretty strongly indicate that they are regarded as useless, given that the alleged justification for wearing them was to reduce the risk of transmitting the virus.

 

[35B]

And I'm sure that being all self-righteous and knowing that they were right will be a great help if they end up going bust!

Hospitality businesses have it really tough at the moment, and those most likely to survive are those who help themselves so far as they can. Throwing away custom unnecessarily is the last thing any of them should be doing.

And licensees can ill afford to be on the wrong end of enforcement, given that it could mean both a fine and suspension of their license.

Personally, I suspect the pub in question has bigger issues than Covid if staff are acting in that way; that approach to refusing to serve (assuming no other prior history between the group and pub that @jumble was unaware of) suggests that the establishment has forgotten wider concepts of hospitality.

 

[DB]

And licensees can ill afford to be on the wrong end of enforcement, given that it could mean both a fine and suspension of their license.

True, but giving away/selling masks wouldn't put them at risk of that.

 

[Bikeman78]

Because they make people feel safer and therefore more likely to go out and spend money and prop up the economy.

NO !!

A mask and misted up glasses are not pleasant, the latter will be worse for the next few months.

Since face coverings in shops became mandatory I have cut my shop visits to a minimum. Once a week for my main shop then any others only when something becomes essential. I get in and out as quick as possible, no browsing and the possibility of spontaneous purchases.

Also I have not been on any public transport this year. Without the masks I would have had a few trips after essential travel only was ended. Hence loss to both transport and shops, hospitality etc where I would have visited.

Has anyone attempted to quantify any of this?

How many people will happily go out and get on with life without masks?
How many people will do very little even with the current mask rules?
How many people will go out more if masks are mandatory but stay home if they are not?
How many people will go out less because masks are mandatory?

 

[WelshBluebird]

Personally, I suspect the pub in question has bigger issues than Covid if staff are acting in that way; that approach to refusing to serve (assuming no other prior history between the group and pub that @jumble was unaware of) suggests that the establishment has forgotten wider concepts of hospitality.

Or they are just a business trying their best to deal with being open in the current times.
Certainly I have been to a few pubs since masks were required indoors and none have a "stash" to provide people who don't have one - all expected you to have one and if not then sorry no service.

I would suggest that you don't look for a job in customer service...

Been there, done that, got the T-shirt.
In fact my previous customer facing jobs are the reason why I am so cynical about things like this.
Suffice to say, many people who contact customer services for many issues are in the wrong themselves and just want to blame it on someone else.
And in this case - the group in question should have just had masks. Simple.

 

[DB]

Or they are just a business trying their best to deal with being open in the current times.
Certainly I have been to a few pubs since masks were required indoors and none have a "stash" to provide people who don't have one - all expected you to have one and if not then sorry no service.

Which rather suggests that the parts of the hospitality industry you have been using have little interest in reserving their businesses.

Sure, many customers are wrong - but that doesn't make it any less illogical to turn away business when it would be so easy to deal with ths particular issue.

 

[35B]

True, but giving away/selling masks wouldn't put them at risk of that.

I agree. Though my comment about motive was a general one, rather than specific to this incident. My view remains that this pub has bigger issues than just mask wearing

 

[WelshBluebird]

Which rather suggests that the parts of the hospitality industry you have been using have little interest in reserving their businesses.

Sure, many customers are wrong - but that doesn't make it any less illogical to turn away business when it would be so easy to deal with ths particular issue.

We know nothing about the business in question.

It may be a chain pub where such policies are decided at the top and individual premises have no option but to follow head office rules.
It may be a popular pub which is often at or near its current (limited) capacity and so does not actually lose custom (as anyone turned away is replaced by someone else moments later, who would themselves have been turned away had the first group had masks).
It may be one where they tried similar things in the past but just found people taking advantage.
It may be one where the manager treats staff in such a way which means those at front of house feel they cannot take it upon themselves to do things like provide masks etc (remember not everyone front of house at a pub is the landlord - many are just bar staff who are paid to serve drinks and clean and not much more - they often don't have the ability in their role to decide policies for the business and so to have a go at them is pretty out of order imo).
It may well be a dump where the staff just don't give a damn.
We don't know.

To automatically jump to saying the pub is in the wrong and every pub should provide a stash for customers to use when it is those customers who should be following the rules is what I would call "stretching".

What we do know is that it is not the pubs job to provide masks to its customers. That should be on the customers themselves. The rest of us manage it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

And I'm sure that being all self-righteous and knowing that they were right will be a great help if they end up going bust!

A pub does not have the option to break the law to stay in business and it's disingenuous to suggest they should have done.

Should it also serve children with alcohol if that makes it more viable?

 

[DB]

A pub does not have the option to break the law to stay in business and it's disingenuous to suggest they should have done.

I never suggested that it should!

 

[jumble]

We know nothing about the business in question.

It may be a chain pub where such policies are decided at the top and individual premises have no option but to follow head office rules.
It may be a popular pub which is often at or near its current (limited) capacity and so does not actually lose custom.
It may be one where they tried similar things in the past but just found people taking advantage.
It may well be one where the manager treats staff in such a way which means those at front of house feel they cannot take it upon themselves to do things like provide masks etc (remember not everyone front of house at a pub is the landlord - many are just bar staff who are paid to serve drinks and clean and not much more - they often don't have the ability in their role to decide policies for the business and so to have a go at them is pretty out of order imo).
It may well be a dump where the staff just don't give a damn.
We don't know.

To automatically jump to saying the pub is in the wrong and every pub should provide a stash for customers to use when it is those customers who should be following the rules is what I would call "stretching".

What we do know is that it is not the pubs job to provide masks to its customers. That should be on the customers themselves. The rest of us manage it.

I do know

It is part of a chain called Mosiac
There was no one else except for us at the time.
It is normally popular in non Covid times and is otherwise excellently run
How can you take advantage if the pub are offering to sell you something that they make a profit on ?
I explicitly stated that I believed that it was management policy and have deliberately not identified the location to the parent company which means that I am emphatically not having a go at the barstaff


If the pub want to turn away customers who come maskless instead of using some initiative and solving the problem that is naturally down to them however I suspect that they will then be moaning about how Covid killed their business as they are unable to see the bigger picture.
@Bletchleyite

The law has already been broken by the customer coming up to the bar maskless.
By failing to give/sell the customer a mask the lawbreaking was prolonged while the customers debated the matter and then sauntered past me maskless thus placing me at unnecessary risk !

@WelshBluebird
The bigger picture is that the member of staff is willingly or unwillingly putting his own job in danger if the pub annoys too many customers when they are empty then they don't have a business

 

[43066]

Refusing entry for people not wearing masks isn't "making up their own rules" though. It is following the rules that have been laid out by the government.
As I said above - sure you can argue that maybe providing cheap one use masks would be a good business decision, but I don't see how not doing that is "making up their own rules".

The staff member should have perhaps asked the group if they were exempt (perhaps they did, but the previous post doesn’t mention it). If the group had stated they were exempt they should have been allowed in without further question.

I am exempt and a couple of times have been asked to show an exemption screensaver. That is in direct contravention of government guidelines, and is going above and beyond enforcement of the rules and straying into “jobsworth” territory.

What we do know is that it is not the pubs job to provide masks to its customers. That should be on the customers themselves. The rest of us manage it.

As mentioned above that is an easy fix to avoid turning away customers (who are less likely to return). It’s not about being “in the right, it’s providing a decent service for paying punters. That’s something hospitality businesses in this country are woefully bad at, even in normal times.

A pub does not have the option to break the law to stay in business and it's disingenuous to suggest they should have done.

I don’t think anyone has suggested that. But sensible businesses should surely be implementing the minimum measures necessary to comply with the requirements. Ones that are going over and above this fully deserve to go under, in my opinion.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The staff member should have perhaps asked the group if they were exempt (perhaps they did, but the previous post doesn’t mention it). If the group had stated they were exempt they should have been allowed in without further question.

I am exempt and a couple of times have been asked to show an exemption screensaver. That is in direct contravention of government guidelines, and is going above and beyond enforcement of the rules and straying into “jobsworth” territory.

There was no mention of exemption in the original post so I have no idea how you can automatically jump to the assumption that the group were exempt!
Yes, if the group was exempt then of course serving them would be the right course of action. But if the group did not claim that, and did not mention it when questioned about not having masks, then it is fair to assume that they aren't exempt and so turning them away was the right thing to do.

As mentioned above that is an easy fix to avoid turning away customers (who are less likely to return). It’s not about being “in the right, it’s providing a decent service for paying punters. That’s something hospitality businesses in this country are woefully bad at, even in normal times.

But that isn't on a pub to do. If a business wants to, then great. But they don't have to.
As I posted earlier there are numerous reasons why a pub maybe decide not to provide single use masks to customers who don't have one of their own.
However, if the group were not chancing it - they wouldn't have been turned away. It is really that simple.

I don’t think anyone has suggested that. But sensible businesses should surely be implementing the minimum measures necessary to comply with the requirements. Ones that are going over and above this fully deserve to go under, in my opinion.

Can you please explain that comment?
"Doing the minimum measures necessary" would mean requiring anyone who isn't exempt to where a mask when entering the premises.
That is what the pub apparently did.
How on earth is that "going over and above"?

 

[jumble]

There was no mention of exemption in the original post so I have no idea how you can automatically jump to the assumption that the group were exempt!
Yes, if the group was exempt then of course serving them would be the right course of action. But if the group did not claim that, and did not mention it when questioned about not having masks, then it is fair to assume that they aren't exempt and so turning them away was the right thing to do.



But that isn't on a pub to do. If a business wants to, then great. But they don't have to.
As I posted earlier there are numerous reasons why a pub maybe decide not to provide single use masks to customers who don't have one of their own.
However, if the group were not chancing it - they wouldn't have been turned away. It is really that simple.




Can you please explain that comment?
"Doing the minimum measures necessary" would mean requiring anyone who isn't exempt to where a mask when entering the premises.
That is what the pub apparently did.
How on earth is that "going over and above"?

The customer was not asked if they were exempt
I take it you have never run a business as if you did and ran it in a prudent manner and had next to no trade, and each additional customer has a marginal cost but brings in a normal profit then the very last thing you would do is turn business away on the basis that your customers are stupid unless you have lazy staff.
( I agree that if it is a rammed pub where if you turn someone away then they will be replaced then this is a different story and the profit has grown legs and run elsewhere away)
I am pretty sure that the pub lost money based on the amount of customers vs staff last night but that loss would have been smaller if the owners had not had a lack of common sense.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The customer was not asked if they were exempt
I take it you have never run a business as if you did and ran it in a prudent manner and had next to no trade, and each additional customer has a marginal cost but brings in a normal profit then the very last thing you would do is turn business away on the basis that your customers are stupid unless you have lazy staff.
( I agree that if it is a rammed pub where if you turn someone away then they will be replaced then this is a different story and the profit has grown legs and run elsewhere away)
I am pretty sure that the pub lost money based on the amount of customers vs staff last night but that loss would have been smaller if the owners had not had a lack of common sense.

So to clarify - the group did not say they were exempt correct?
In which case the pub did the right thing.

The law currently is such that if a pub doesn't turn away a group like that, they will likely be closed. That would lose them a lot more money than just one group of people being turned away.

Now you can argue till the cats come home about if the pub should have a stash of one use masks for customers (as I have said, my take on it is that if a pub wants to then fine, but it shouldn't be something that is expected), but in this case it looks like they didn't. As you can't magic those up from thin air, again the only thing the staff could do is to refuse entry.

And sure, the staff could have "coached" the group through agreeing they were exempt - but that just makes a mockery of the rules and I am sure if a pub was caught doing that again they would be closed.

Genuinely - given the pub did not have one use masks available for customers, and the group was not exempt, what did you expect the pub to do given the current law?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The customer was not asked if they were exempt

People who are genuinely exempt will volunteer that information. There is no sense in encouraging people who aren't to lie.

 

[WelshBluebird]

People who are genuinely exempt will volunteer that information. There is no sense in encouraging people who aren't to lie.

Exactly. And I am sure a pub who did try that would pretty quickly find themselves being closed because of it, losing much more money than they would lose by turning away just one group.