Possible improvements to services serving Ellesmere Port

[Old Yard Dog]

I agree a Merseyrail extension to Helsby would be very unlikely to generate any significant additional new business from Elton or Helsby, nor encourage much new interchange traffic from elsewhere that isn't already adequately served by changing at Chester or Liverpool. Instead, I think it might be worth studying a 2km single track extension alongside the M53 to Cheshire Oaks that might better justify that extra set circulating all day. A terminal station next to the coach parking bays along Coliseum Way could serve inbound retail and entertainment business as well as outbound Liverpool commuting from housing on the south side of town, and provide easier access from the wider Wirral area to the many hundreds of jobs in the area. An intermediate station at Lees Lane could serve redevelopment and existing housing nearby. Being at a major node on the regional road network, The Cheshire Oaks station could also provide a useful transfer point for drop off, pick up and parkway business on the shiny new trains, and that could benefit the nearby retail businesses.
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Sadly there has been quite a lot of development along this corridor since your aerial shot was taken and it might now be difficult to fit even a single-track railway in. In particular, the former football/speedway/greyhound stadium has been demolished and is now covered by housing. I was the only objector when planning permission was applied for.

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The only possibility might be on the east side of the M53 with a bridge across to Cheshire Oaks and the Colisseum. But its now getting expensive.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When comparing the relative populations of Chester and Ellesmere Port, I was simply speculating on the numbers of people who travel OUT of these two cities/towns to park at Hooton and catch a train.

Chester is of a wonderful tourist city and regional centre and, of course, far more people travel INTO Chester than Ellesmere Port.

Indeed. I guess Ellesmere Port and surroundings is a perfectly decent place to live (though I haven't had a wander around the residential bits) but its town centre is only really an attraction (if you'd call it that) for locals. I'm sure some will dislike this, but I'll happily admit exactly the same thing is true of Bletchley - literally the only reasons for anyone who doesn't live there to go there by train are football and Bletchley Park - the centre is a dump. For Ellesmere Port that's Cheshire Oaks, but it's a bit far from the station.

 

[MarkyT]

Sadly there has been quite a lot of development along this corridor since your aerial shot was taken and it might now be difficult to fit even a single-track railway in. In particular, the former football/speedway/greyhound stadium has been demolished and is now covered by housing. I was the only objector when planning permission was applied for.

I wondered if a track might be built very close to the carriageway, right next to the hard shoulder, actually on the highway embankment for the most part, which would be slightly widened, with retaining walls constructed on the west side as necessary. A few large road signs on the bank would need moving clearly, but these might plausibly be accommodated on new overhead gantries instead. A significant valid objection would be loss of the mature trees on the embankment that shield the new housing from the motorway. That would need replacing by new planting and noise barriers. A showstopper could be be if the highway authority has any safeguarding provisions for motorway widening which would use the same space.

The only possibility might be on the east side of the M53 with a bridge across to Cheshire Oaks and the Colisseum. But its now getting expensive.

Very costly, and probably implausible to get the curve in from the junction on the east side without considerable industrial demolition.

 

[tavistock]

Moderator note: Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...llesmere-port-manchester-leeds-trains.205152/



Probably single figures. The services are not timed to be useful for a commute to Manchester, are they? I seem to recall them being a bit late (morning) and a bit early (evening)? If so, they probably mostly do a shuffle via Hooton to Chester for onward services, or drive to Helsby (or all the way).

I still very much think the fix here is to extend one of the two Merseyrail TPH to Helsby, possibly using the battery feature. Much easier to do than Ormskirk or Kirkby because the line hasn't been lopped. Perhaps this will be used for a trial of the battery feature at some point?

Hopefully you are right and battery power will be the answer. But do you think there is the will from Merseyside to extend their services further into West Cheshire? What's in it for them?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hopefully you are right and battery power will be the answer. But do you think there is the will from Merseyside to extend their services further into West Cheshire? What's in it for them?

Cheshire would clearly have to cough up some money. It's not massively different from Wigan/Skem and Preston, which are both sort-of-proposed.

 

[Llandudno]

Cheshire would clearly have to cough up some money. It's not massively different from Wigan/Skem and Preston, which are both sort-of-proposed.

Except that many more journeys would be made to Skem/Wigan/Preston than between Ellesmere Port and Helsby

 

[Ianno87]

Cheshire would clearly have to cough up some money. It's not massively different from Wigan/Skem and Preston, which are both sort-of-proposed.

Except that many more journeys would be made to Skem/Wigan/Preston than between Ellesmere Port and Helsby

It's the sort of extension that would have to be justified on the grounds of some pretty significant housing development around Ince & Elton / Stanlow & Thornton to come even close to washing its face.

 

[tavistock]

It's the sort of extension that would have to be justified on the grounds of some pretty significant housing development around Ince & Elton / Stanlow & Thornton to come even close to washing its face.

IT COULD CERTAINLY HELP THOSE WANTING TO TRAVEL FROM THE WIRRAL TO MANCHESTER WITHOUT HAVING TO GO TO CHESTER OR LIVERPOOL FIRST. CHANGE AT HELSBY.

 

[Ianno87]

IT COULD CERTAINLY HELP THOSE WANTING TO TRAVEL FROM THE WIRRAL TO MANCHESTER WITHOUT HAVING TO GO TO CHESTER OR LIVERPOOL FIRST. CHANGE AT HELSBY.

It certainly would, but...
A) How many people is that in practice? We're certainly not talking a full train load, every hour or half hour
B) Specifically, how many wholly new passengers would be generated who are not already happy to travel via Chester (1 change route versus 1 change route)?

Suspect the answer is 1 or 2 journeys at most per train.

 

[tavistock]

It certainly would, but...
A) How many people is that in practice? We're certainly not talking a full train load, every hour or half hour
B) Specifically, how many wholly new passengers would be generated who are not already happy to travel via Chester (1 change route versus 1 change route)?

Suspect the answer is 1 or 2 journeys at most per train.

I DID NOT THINK YOU COULD TRAVEL DIRECT FROM EP TO CHESTER WITHOUT CHANGING AT HOOTON. THEREFORE GOING FROM EP TO MANCHESTER VIA CHESTER WOULD BE TWO CHANGES CURRENTLY, AND JUST ONE CHANGE VIA HELSBY IF AN EASTWARDS SERVICE FROM EP WERE INTRODUCED.

 

[Ianno87]

I DID NOT THINK YOU COULD TRAVEL DIRECT FROM EP TO CHESTER WITHOUT CHANGING AT HOOTON. THEREFORE GOING FROM EP TO MANCHESTER VIA CHESTER WOULD BE TWO CHANGES CURRENTLY, AND JUST ONE CHANGE VIA HELSBY IF AN EASTWARDS SERVICE FROM EP WERE INTRODUCED.

OK, so passengers from Ellesmere Port / Overpool etc. would get a one change journey (albeit that is possible via Lime Street). But there aren't that many passengers from those stations!

 

[tavistock]

Correct. But maybe Merseyrail calculate that it would be better to have a service running to Helsby and backrather than dwelling at Ellesmere Port.Who knows?

 

[frodshamfella]

Correct. But maybe Merseyrail calculate that it would be better to have a service running to Helsby and backrather than dwelling at Ellesmere Port.Who knows?

It would at least allow for an onward connection which E Port does not.

 

[Ianno87]

Correct. But maybe Merseyrail calculate that it would be better to have a service running to Helsby and backrather than dwelling at Ellesmere Port.Who knows?

You'd need at least one extra trainset + driver in circulation, and the associated cost of that, all day, every day, 365 days per year.

 

[tavistock]

It would at least allow for an onward connection which E Port does not.

exactly

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2020 ==

You'd need at least one extra trainset + driver in circulation, and the associated cost of that, all day, every day, 365 days per year.

Im sure Merseyrail are aware of that. They are keen to expand their empire.. let's see what happens

 

[Vespa]

If a new line can be created to Cheshire Oaks traffic would go up a lot as its a useful service going to where people want to go.

 

[Gareth]

Perhaps a people mover could connect Cheshire Oaks to the station.

 

[tavistock]

If a new line can be created to Cheshire Oaks traffic would go up a lot as its a useful service going to where people want to go.

I don't think that's possible, sadly

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2020 ==

Perhaps a people mover could connect Cheshire Oaks to the station.

you mean a bus? Along Stanney Lane?

 

[Gareth]

No, a people mover.

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, a people mover.

There appears to be a good, fairly direct road connection between EP station and Cheshire Oaks. What's wrong with a decent quality, ideally electric, bus?

 

[Gareth]

Dunno, nothing, I suppose.

But the lovely, reliable, super comfy, electric bus argument can be used for a plethora of hypothetical situations; including removing rail passenger services between Ellesmere Port & Helsby.

 

[tavistock]

No, a people mover.

Not possible, sadly

 

[Gareth]

If you insist.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Dunno, nothing, I suppose.

But the lovely, reliable, super comfy, electric bus argument can be used for a plethora of hypothetical situations; including removing rail passenger services between Ellesmere Port & Helsby.

It could, but the key difference being that there's a railway there, whereas there isn't one to Cheshire Oaks.

 

[8H]

Ellesmere Port to Helsby creates, and or improves access to
Ellesmere Port to Warrington (WCML North & South)
Ellesmere Port to Runcorn & Liverpool
Ellesmere Port to Chester !

If you Wanted to you could do all sorts of things with hybrid units eg EP Helsby Chester Hooton EP Helsby or EP Helsby Runcorn Liverpool, or EP Helsby Warrington Liverpool/Manchester etc etc etc.

It’s a neglected and useful network just depends on modal shift away from cars in the future how much of this might happen

 

[tavistock]

If you insist.

I hope I am wrong but I think there's too much housing in the way. The Stanney Grange estate is being expanded

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 13 Oct 2020 ==

Ellesmere Port to Helsby creates, and or improves access to
Ellesmere Port to Warrington (WCML North & South)
Ellesmere Port to Runcorn & Liverpool
Ellesmere Port to Chester !

If you Wanted to you could do all sorts of things with hybrid units eg EP Helsby Chester Hooton EP Helsby or EP Helsby Runcorn Liverpool, or EP Helsby Warrington Liverpool/Manchester etc etc etc.

It’s a neglected and useful network just depends on modal shift away from cars in the future how much of this might happen

Agreed

 

[Gareth]

I hope I am wrong but I think there's too much housing in the way. The Stanney Grange estate is being expanded

Under the M53 and down along the Shropshire Union Canal. Tricky, but I would think it easier to thread a people mover of some sort through there rather than heavy rail. That said, if a bus can meet the demand, I don't know why we're talking of a heavy rail link in the first place.

 

[tbtc]

There appears to be a good, fairly direct road connection between EP station and Cheshire Oaks. What's wrong with a decent quality, ideally electric, bus?

Dunno, nothing, I suppose.

But the lovely, reliable, super comfy, electric bus argument can be used for a plethora of hypothetical situations; including removing rail passenger services between Ellesmere Port & Helsby.

Could one bus do a half hourly Ellesmere Port - Cheshire Oaks - Hellesby service?

Everything else seems an incredibly complicated/ expensive solution to serve a fairly empty part of countryside (between Ellesmere Port and Runcorn)

Just because there's a lightly used freight line doesn't meant that must use heavy rail to try to deal with whatever passenger demand there is.

 

[Polarbear]

Could one bus do a half hourly Ellesmere Port - Cheshire Oaks - Hellesby service?

Everything else seems an incredibly complicated/ expensive solution to serve a fairly empty part of countryside (between Ellesmere Port and Runcorn)

Just because there's a lightly used freight line doesn't meant that must use heavy rail to try to deal with whatever passenger demand there is.

The existing bus (Stagecoach service 2) manages Ellesmere Port town centre to Helsby, via Cheshire Oaks & Ince in 26 minutes. The only way a bus could be quicker from Ellesmere Port rail station would be to use the M53, but that would mean a time consuming double back around Cheshire Oaks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The existing bus (Stagecoach service 2) manages Ellesmere Port town centre to Helsby, via Cheshire Oaks & Ince in 26 minutes. The only way a bus could be quicker from Ellesmere Port rail station would be to use the M53, but that would mean a time consuming double back around Cheshire Oaks.

Stick that in the railway ticketing and timetable system and you're sorted.