First Class, when its not timetabled.

[transportphoto]

Hi All,

Can somebody confirm that any First Class accommodation is declassified to Standard on any services which are not timetabled to have first class.

For example, the 1758 Sheringham to Norwich service - this is showing as not having FC, but is often worked by a Cl170 with FC.

If possible could someone give a document (and where in it) it says this?

TIA

TP
Sorry if this is in the wrong forum.

 

[455driver]

Basically yes, if the service is not advertised as having FC then it is standard through-out the train, if there are FC seats they are declassified.

We have problems where some trains between the same intermediate stations are advertised with FC (Readings) and some not (Windsors) with both trains possibly conveying FC seats, the Readings ARE FC and the Windsors are not.

 

[transportphoto]

Thanks, where does something say this?

And what timetable are we to go by - the main National Timetable or the one published by TOC's?

What about extra's for example, I think the Cromer Carnival Special's tomorrow will be Cl170's, anyone got the timetable please, PM me a link so to keep the thread on topic!

 

[furryfeet]

where does something say this?

It would be useful if there was a document to have with one in such circumstances. I have been on trains e.g. Preston - Burnley - Leeds where the service is listed as being declassified in the timetable, but the guard has kept everyone out of 1st class unless they had a 1st class ticket.

 

[yorkie]

I don't know where it is documented but if the train is not advertised with a '1' symbol it cannot be enforced.

If the guard effectively closes a section of the train (it is unlikely, although possible, that any passengers will board a train without FC on a FC ticket), then I wonder if a letter to ATOC mentioning that those seats were unavailable would result in the TOC losing ORCATS revenue for those seats?

 

[Solent&Wessex]

I don't know where it is documented but if the train is not advertised with a '1' symbol it cannot be enforced.

If the guard effectively closes a section of the train (it is unlikely, although possible, that any passengers will board a train without FC on a FC ticket), then I wonder if a letter to ATOC mentioning that those seats were unavailable would result in the TOC losing ORCATS revenue for those seats?

I don't think it is documented as I don't think it is true. I have this feeling this is one of those rumours that have done the rounds long enough to make it into folklore. I have certainly never seen it documented anywhere. I suspect it will very much depend on whether a First Class fare exists or not. For example, one post above mentioned trains to Sheringham. Without checking I suspect that there are no First Class fares on this route so therefore you couldn't enforce first class. Between other stations there may well be first class fares so if a train has first class, and there is a first class fare, then it should be charged in my opinion. Unless someone has some documentary evidence to the contrary.

 

[455driver]

Some of the routes I do, Reading, have first class, but some dont,ie Windsors, now on the stops shared by these trains, say from Staines to Twickenham, the Reading will have first class fares but the Windsor is standard class only so if the train has a first class area this is downgraded even though there are first class fares between these points.
Oh I do make announcements to the effect that this train is standard class throughout and you can sit in the posh bit if you want, most of the regulars already know this and dont need to be told

 

[Lampshade]

Some of the routes I do, Reading, have first class, but some dont,ie Windsors, now on the stops shared by these trains, say from Staines to Twickenham, the Reading will have first class fares but the Windsor is standard class only so if the train has a first class area this is downgraded even though there are first class fares between these points.

Bloody wish I knew that when I was down there last hock:

 

[455driver]

A little knowledge goes a long way , we even put different trains (458s) on the Readings to make it easy to differentiate from the Windsors (450s)

 

[Lampshade]

Or more precisely, 450/5s on the Windsors

I noticed it's pretty rare for a standard 450 to be on a Windsor service, but I've definitely done Staines - Waterloo on a standard one - sat right next to FC

 

[455driver]

Or more precisely, 450/5s on the Windsors

I noticed it's pretty rare for a standard 450 to be on a Windsor service, but I've definitely done Staines - Waterloo on a standard one - sat right next to FC

They are now, but previously they were just the normal 450 before the conversions, still get a few 450/0s on the Windsor side most days.

 

[Matt Taylor]

There are still some diagrams for LC 450s on the Windsor lines, in fact the 1906 Shepperton-Waterloo is diagrammed to form the 2015 Waterloo-Haslemere so that's one for a start.

It isn't beyond reality for HC 450s to turn up on the mainline either.

 

[455driver]

There are still some diagrams for LC 450s on the Windsor lines, in fact the 1906 Shepperton-Waterloo is diagrammed to form the 2015 Waterloo-Haslemere so that's one for a start.

It isn't beyond reality for HC 450s to turn up on the mainline either.

That one runs ECS from Strawberry Hill (off maintenance at Seimens) and works the 1813 (2H95) Waterloo to Shepperton via Twickenham first.

 

[rail-britain]

I have always used the front section of the National Rail Timetable
This clearly states that all trains are standard accomodation, unless specified in the timetable :
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/May10/References and Symbols.pdf
Accommodation
All services shown in this timetable convey Standard
accommodation only unless otherwise shown.

Therefore if the train has First Class accomodation, in error, but the timetable shows it does not, then it does not

This happens quite often on ScotRail, where a Class 170 operates on a route that does not normally have First Class

If the staff refuse access, or attempt to sell First Class tickets, I would therefore complain with the train details (plus also the member of staff name)
Equally, check the timetable and fares

Finally, on some routes a First Class fare is not available!
Clearly proof that the train is completely standard accomodation, irrespective of what rolling stock is being used

 

[RJ]

I have always used the front section of the National Rail Timetable
This clearly states that all trains are standard accomodation, unless specified in the timetable :
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/eNRT/May10/References and Symbols.pdf
Accommodation
All services shown in this timetable convey Standard
accommodation only unless otherwise shown.

Therefore if the train has First Class accomodation, in error, but the timetable shows it does not, then it does not

This happens quite often on ScotRail, where a Class 170 operates on a route that does not normally have First Class

If the staff refuse access, or attempt to sell First Class tickets, I would therefore complain with the train details (plus also the member of staff name)
Equally, check the timetable and fares

Finally, on some routes a First Class fare is not available!
Clearly proof that the train is completely standard accomodation, irrespective of what rolling stock is being used

If there are no First Class fares then it's normally 1.5 times the Standard fare. You need a valid ticket to travel in First Class.

 

[John @ home]

If there are no First Class fares then it's normally 1.5 times the Standard fare. You need a valid ticket to travel in First Class.

We have been told several times on this forum that this no longer applies. The rule used to appear in the printed National Fares Manuals

Page A3

Fares for First Class Travel
First Class fares for most journeys where First Class accommodation is available are shown in Sections B and C. Where a First Class fare is not shown for the throughout journey and First Class accommodation is available for part of the journey, a through First Class fare can still be issued. This charge is based on the Standard throughout fare (Standard Open or Standard Day) plus the difference between First Class and Standard (FO or FD minus SO or SD) fares for the portion of the journey where First Class accommodation is available. If there is First Class accommodation for the whole journey and a First Class Fare is not shown, add 50% to the Standard Open or Standard Day Single rounding to the nearest 10p.

It seems that the current Rule, if one exists, is not in the public domain.

 

[jon0844]

If there are no First Class fares then it's normally 1.5 times the Standard fare. You need a valid ticket to travel in First Class.

And a standard ticket is a valid ticket when there's no first class service.

 

[sonic2009]

It would be useful if there was a document to have with one in such circumstances. I have been on trains e.g. Preston - Burnley - Leeds where the service is listed as being declassified in the timetable, but the guard has kept everyone out of 1st class unless they had a 1st class ticket.

when was this.? As far as i rember all services york to blackpool north via burnley were standard?

 

[Max]

when was this.? As far as i rember all services york to blackpool north via burnley were standard?

Was this back in the days when TPE 158s turned up on these services? Or unusual circumstances such as the SWT 158 hire in?

 

[Drsatan]

When a train with first class accommodation is used on a service which is not advertised as having first class accommodation, is the conductor supposed to let passengers know that the first class section is declassified and that anyone with a standard class ticket may use it?

By way of example, the SWT 158 on loan to FGW worked the 08:23 from Southampton Central to Great Malvern a few weeks ago. The guard never mentioned that the first class section was declassified.

 

[Mojo]

I have, on a number of occasions tried to get a ticket in First class on a train which is advertised as having First class but for which no First class fare exists (so not about the issue raised by the OP, but mentioned by 'RJ' and 'John @ home' a few posts up), from both the ticket office and the Train Manager and both have told me that no fare exists and that it was not possible to buy one (but the Train Manager let me sit in First anyway!)

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I have, on a number of occasions tried to get a ticket in First class on a train which is advertised as having First class but for which no First class fare exists (so not about the issue raised by the OP, but mentioned by 'RJ' and 'John @ home' a few posts up), from both the ticket office and the Train Manager and both have told me that no fare exists and that it was not possible to buy one (but the Train Manager let me sit in First anyway!)

I have found no way to create a fare on Fastis (that Northern use), but on Smart it is/was possible. However, I cannot find a rule in the FRPP to allow a first class ticket to be 'made up', where one does not exist for a journey that has first class accomodation.

 

[Deerfold]

Was this back in the days when TPE 158s turned up on these services? Or unusual circumstances such as the SWT 158 hire in?

We had a SWT 158 turned up on a Leeds to Keighley service a few months back - the guard was cheerily telling people "you might want to go down the end - it's quite comfy in 1st class." It was.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, I had no trouble sitting in 1st when a SWT 158 turned up on the Sheffield - Leeds via Castleford. TBH I thought this was always the case, as I've relatives in South London who remember sitting in 1st when the CEP's occasionally turned up on suburban trains in BR days.

 

[furryfeet]

when was this.? As far as i rember all services york to blackpool north via burnley were standard?

Probably about 8 years ago, when they started using 158's on that service.
Some of them had 1st class accomodation.

How often this still happens I do not know, since I no longer live in Burnley, but I bet it does - probably when they swap a unit on say a Leeds to Hull diagram and use it on York to Blackpool instead.

 

[Failed Unit]

I think it depends on the TOC to be honest - In WAGN days when a 317 was used on the Welwyn and Hertford stoppers the RPI's said it was declassified. In fact I am sure it use to say so in the timetable as well.

I have heard the Anglia (before NXEA) used to charge a suppliment for the 170's on routes such as Yarmouth.

Now a question, you are travelling from Market Rasen - Nottingham on the meridian from Lincoln. You want to travel 1st class and the train does have it advertised. Who do you pay the extra to as the gaurd from Market Rasen wasn't sure himself - to be fair no-one had ever asked for it before!

 

[reb0118]

When Class 170 Turbostars came into service with Scotrail we were instructed to lock any first class areas OOU if the set was being used on a non first class service. First on 170s was not to be declassified under any circumstances. I am sure this is no longer the case.

On the "charge 50% more than the full standard ticket when first is available but no fare is shown" - I think this is impossible to do through Avantix Mobile as you cannot override a fare that does not exist.

As an aside though when we got the ex Hull Turbos with the full carriage of rather plush first class I rather jokingly informed a passenger with a Fife concession card (£1:00 flat fare) that he would have to pay an extra 50p to sit in the first class. I was expecting a flat refusal as in Fife every penny is a prisoner and there is a charge for Metros (and yes the Fife Free Press is NOT free). However the passenger stated that he thought it was excellent value and INSISTED on paying even when I informed him that I was joking. He even followed me up the train and attempted to slip the coin into my pocket. Eventually I gave in, and to stop a scene developing, took it - but later on gave him a cup of tea from my flask so at least he got the full FC experience.

 

[Greenback]

On an inverness to Kyle trip last October, the FC section was open and people sat in it. I never heard the conductor enforce any kind of rule in either direction, so unless everyone who travelled had FC tickets, it was, effectively, declaissifed!

 

[Aictos]

On an inverness to Kyle trip last October, the FC section was open and people sat in it. I never heard the conductor enforce any kind of rule in either direction, so unless everyone who travelled had FC tickets, it was, effectively, declaissifed!

I didn't know first class on the 158s between Inverness and Wick/Thurso/Kyle of Lochalsh was declassified!

Is it technically only a standard class service then?

 

[MCR247]

Yes it is