Could Gatwick Express trains theoretically stop at East Croydon?

[Peregrine 4903]

Is it theoretically possible considering for Gatwick Express trains to stop at East Croydon, taking into consideration pathing, leaving a 3 minute or whatever the required gap is and capacity? Also without removing any other services.

I would look this up myself but I can't find the working timetable as realtime trains is only showing the short term plan timetable at the minute.

Also if this were theoretically possible would this be beneficial?

When I went to East Croydon before lockdown the Gatwick Express trains were very empty while Southern services heading the London Victoria were full and standing, and this was off peak. But I don't know the passenger flows that well so I'm not sure if it would be.

 

[JonathanH]

If the Gatwick Express trains aren't timetabled to stop at East Croydon, it isn't possible to stop them without rewriting the timetable. For example, southbound, the Gatwick Express path around the hour from Victoria is followed south from East Croydon by the Thameslink service to Horsham. Put a stop in Gatwick Express and the Horsham train can no longer depart at xx16.

When I went to East Croydon before lockdown the Gatwick Express trains were very empty while Southern services heading the London Victoria were full and standing, and this was off peak. But I don't know the passenger flows that well so I'm not sure if it would be

That problem isn't as bad as it once was - extension to Brighton helped with the loadings. There are certain Southern services which loaded full before March 2020 that wouldn't have been any different if Gatwick Express stopped at East Croydon.

Putting a stop in at East Croydon is hardly the priority in any case - there are plenty of trains from East Croydon to Gatwick Airport and Brighton.

I would look this up myself but I can't find the working timetable as realtime trains is only showing the short term plan timetable at the minute.

Try selecting 'CAN' from the options. The Gatwick Express paths are still there.

 

[Bald Rick]

Theoretically, yes, and it has been looked at a number of times. It does drive a timetable recast though.

Would be more straightforward after Croydon is rebuilt (if it is).

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Theoretically, yes, and it has been looked at a number of times. It does drive a timetable recast though.

Would be more straightforward after Croydon is rebuilt (if it is).

Is the Croydon rebuild the Windmill Bridge works, a seperate rebuild of East Croydon station, both or something else?

 

[Horizon22]

Theoretically yes, but it would be a lot of hassle for limited gain. Most Southern services are fast to Gatwick anyway in 15-20 mins. I've often seen GX services crawl through East Croydon anyway!

Is the Croydon rebuild the Windmill Bridge works, a seperate rebuild of East Croydon station, both or something else?

Separate but linked. Intention is to make East Croydon at 8 platform station.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Theoretically yes, but it would be a lot of hassle for limited gain. Most Southern services are fast to Gatwick anyway in 15-20 mins. I've often seen GX services crawl through East Croydon anyway!



Separate but linked. Intention is to make East Croydon at 8 platform station.

I guess this is no longer relevant because of the collapse of commuting as a result of Covid 19 but I more meant to provide more direct fast services from East Croydon to London Victoria.

 

[Horizon22]

I guess this is no longer relevant because of the collapse of commuting as a result of Covid 19 but I more meant to provide more direct fast services from East Croydon to London Victoria.

Ah fair enough. I mean most locals know the GX is an absolute rip off so they'll get a Southern service. I'm not sure if there would be a price differential on GX if it did stop at East Croydon. Might help relieve pressure a bit but somewhat destroys the "Express idea" (although it's only about 5 mins faster anyway than the equivalent Southern train!)

Also, everyone goes through the same barrier at East Croydon so that may need some thought. I can't remember how the gateline works at Gatwick and Victoria respectively for Oyster / contactless. I think P13&14 is set up specifically but not sure about Gatwick?

 

[JonathanH]

Ah fair enough. I mean most locals know the GX is an absolute rip off so they'll get a Southern service. I'm not sure if there would be a price differential on GX if it did stop at East Croydon. Might help relieve pressure a bit but somewhat destroys the "Express idea" (although it's only about 5 mins faster anyway than the equivalent Southern train!)

Also, everyone goes through the same barrier at East Croydon so that may need some thought. I can't remember how the gateline works at Gatwick and Victoria respectively for Oyster / contactless. I think P13&14 is set up specifically but not sure about Gatwick?

Gatwick doesn't have specific barriers for Gatwick Express (despite the strange changes they made to the concourse area above platforms 5 & 6).

Platform 13 and 14 barriers at Victoria are set up to break the Out of Station Interchange even if your destination isn't Gatwick Airport, so someone travelling from Oxford Circus to East Croydon through the platform 13/14 barrier would have separate fares for the underground and mainline journeys. Of course, it could be reprogrammed.

Before March 2020, there was plenty of off-peak capacity between East Croydon and Victoria across the hour provided people are prepared to let some trains go first - eg some load higher than others. Removing the Reigate to Victoria trains in favour of a longer Gatwick to Victoria slow would help in the instance of the platform being built at Reigate one day.

 

[Peregrine 4903]

Gatwick doesn't have specific barriers for Gatwick Express (despite the strange changes they made to the concourse area above platforms 5 & 6).

Platform 13 and 14 barriers at Victoria are set up to break the Out of Station Interchange even if your destination isn't Gatwick Airport, so someone travelling from Oxford Circus to East Croydon through the platform 13/14 barrier would have separate fares for the underground and mainline journeys. Of course, it could be reprogrammed.

Before March 2020, there was plenty of off-peak capacity between East Croydon and Victoria across the hour provided people are prepared to let some trains go first - eg some load higher than others. Removing the Reigate to Victoria trains in favour of a longer Gatwick to Victoria slow would help in the instance of the platform being built at Reigate one day.

Would it not have been useful in the peaks pre covid to have the Gatwick Express trains stop at East Croydon to have more commuter capacity heading into London Victoria, of course this is assuming after all the related capacity works in the Croydon have been done if they get done?

Also you could do it in a way where only 2 of 4 the Gatwick Express trains an hour stop at East Croydon, like the ones that terminate at Brighton do and the Gatwick Airport ones don't or vice versa.

 

[cle]

The longer term aim rather than Southern v GEx, would be to dissolve/absorb Gatwick Express - the idea being that the additional 4 Southern trains (plus the existing ones) can help spread airport passengers across many more services. It would help spread demand on the existing Southern services, which are heavily used to connect to Croydon and Clapham, and onwards - by Gatwick passengers. And post-Croydon works, if there are a few more tph - even more help.

Gatwick would be able to support this platform-wise, and there would be many options on the southern side (same as Brighton today, but 2tph to Hove I quite like) - or even Three Bridges/Horsham if needed.

Reigate @ 12 cars as mentioned too, but likely to be Thameslink. Destinations and patterns could easily be pooled and swapped between Thameslink on the southern side with a full recast, as all the same operator.

 

[Horizon22]

The longer term aim rather than Southern v GEx, would be to dissolve/absorb Gatwick Express - the idea being that the additional 4 Southern trains (plus the existing ones) can help spread airport passengers across many more services. It would help spread demand on the existing Southern services, which are heavily used to connect to Croydon and Clapham, and onwards - by Gatwick passengers. And post-Croydon works, if there are a few more tph - even more help.

Gatwick would be able to support this platform-wise, and there would be many options on the southern side (same as Brighton today, but 2tph to Hove I quite like) - or even Three Bridges/Horsham if needed.

Reigate @ 12 cars as mentioned too, but likely to be Thameslink. Destinations and patterns could easily be pooled and swapped between Thameslink on the southern side with a full recast, as all the same operator.

But how will the railway fleece the unsuspecting tourists with the higher fares?!