HS2 and the canal network

[Philip]

Looking at the proposed route for the HS2 to the North West, it appears the line will cross many canals in the Midlands and North West and thus cause a lot of disruption and noise pollution, particularly as this will happen mostly in the peaceful countryside. The canal network is a rich part of our heritage and for many a place of interest, beauty and relaxation. The building of HS2 will cause a lot of damage to this and for what when the existing lines can just be upgraded, probably for a fraction of the cost?

Should more consideration be put into this before they start to build the thing? Also, many canal structures such as locks, bridges, lock keeper's cottages and aqueducts are listed structures and if the line comes into conflict with these then surely the route would have to deviate slightly to avoid destruction of these listed structures?

The building of the railways, whilst necessary, was the beginning of the end for canals in a commercial sense...perhaps the canals will have the last laugh when it comes to HS2...

 

[telstarbox]

Can you give us those costs in detail please?

 

[Ianno87]

Looking at the proposed route for the HS2 to the North West, it appears the line will cross many canals in the Midlands and North West and thus cause a lot of disruption and noise pollution, particularly as this will happen mostly in the peaceful countryside. The canal network is a rich part of our heritage and for many a place of interest, beauty and relaxation. The building of HS2 will cause a lot of damage to this and for what when the existing lines can just be upgraded, probably for a fraction of the cost?

Should more consideration be put into this before they start to build the thing? Also, many canal structures such as locks, bridges, lock keeper's cottages and aqueducts are listed structures and if the line comes into conflict with these then surely the route would have to deviate slightly to avoid destruction of these listed structures?

The building of the railways, whilst necessary, was the beginning of the end for canals in a commercial sense...perhaps the canals will have the last laugh when it comes to HS2...

*Fairly* sure that British Waterways are a statutory consultee of HS2, so that the setting of HS2 against canals and associated infrastructure will have been given a very high level of consideration during its development. Plus extensive consideration and mitigation of the noise impacts of HS2 during operation will also have been considered (e.g. noise barriers).

Can you point to an example of the "destruction" you are claiming, please?

 

[Philip]

*Fairly* sure that British Waterways are a statutory consultee of HS2, so that the setting of HS2 against canals and associated infrastructure will have been given a very high level of consideration during its development. Plus extensive consideration and mitigation of the noise impacts of HS2 during operation will also have been considered (e.g. noise barriers).

Can you point to an example of the "destruction" you are claiming, please?

It is the Canal and River Trust now. The line is proposed to cross the Birmingham and Fazeley Canal on the Curdworth lock flight and the Trent and Mersey Canal in the Dane Valley, there are two examples. Whatever consideration or mitigation has gone into the planning, it will clearly cause significant noise pollution and an eyesore to many areas of canal scenery.

 

[The Planner]

It is the Canal and River Trust now. The line is proposed to cross the Birmingham and Fazeley Canal on the Curdworth lock flight and the Trent and Mersey Canal in the Dane Valley, there are two examples. Whatever consideration or mitigation has gone into the planning, it will clearly cause significant noise pollution and an eyesore to many areas of canal scenery.

And people/organistions have had opportunity to petition against the hybrid bill for Phases 1 and 2A, and will in the future depending on what happens for phase 2B. The Canal and River trust will undoubtedly do that for phase 2B and their case will be heard. If any mitigations are deemed to be required, HS2 will have to deal with them.
HS2 is already under construction, and the point about upgrading existing lines for a fraction of the cost is either trolling or very mis-guided.

 

[SargeNpton]

No different to the situation that arises when a new motorway crosses a canal.

 

[swt_passenger]

You might as well argue that the existing mainline railways cause noise pollution wherever they cross canals, however they’re part of the interest of being on the canal for me.

Does the OP really think that the planning impact on the canals hasn't already been adequately covered in the Bill process through parliament?

 

[Doctor Fegg]

Vast amounts of effort has already gone into this on the part of the Inland Waterways Association, the Canal & River Trust, and individual canal trusts whose waterways will be affected.

Waterways affected by HS2 - The Inland Waterways Association

IWA campaigns to protect waterways from the damaging effects of HS2, especially where their tranquillity is under threat.

www.waterways.org.uk

 

[John Webb]

The Inland Waterways Association and other local canal groups have been working closely with the Canal and River Trust and other concerned bodies to take part in the formal consultations regarding the route of HS2 and the mitigation of effects on the national canal system. They haven't always achieved what they were asking for, but have had some effect.

I personally would rather have electric trains passing at 10 minute intervals than the continuous roar of a motorway and its associated air pollution!

 

[Philip]

Can you give us those costs in detail please?

I dont know them, but seems pretty obvious that upgrading an existing line would be much cheaper than starting from scratch with all the engineering involved.

I like the Victorian railways as part of the canal scenery too, a train going past is a nice sight and sound. But this is a different kettle of fish.

 

[CBlue]

I dont know them, but seems pretty obvious that upgrading an existing line would be much cheaper than starting from scratch with all the engineering involved.

I like the Victorian railways as part of the canal scenery too, a train going past is a nice sight and sound. But this is a different kettle of fish.

Are you trying to claim that existing alignments don't cause noise pollution already?

Upgrading the East or West coast main lines to the same standard as HS2 would require miles upon miles of new alignments and trackwork anyway - which would also infringe on many "sensitive" areas and cause increased noise pollution.

 

[Ianno87]

I dont know them, but seems pretty obvious that upgrading an existing line would be much cheaper than starting from scratch with all the engineering involved.

To achieve the same level of benefits, it is certainly not cheaper - if anything considerably more expensive.

I like the Victorian railways as part of the canal scenery too, a train going past is a nice sight and sound. But this is a different kettle of fish.

You mean Victorian railways, built with absolutely no consideration for noise mitigation and environmental impacts? Try actually standing and listensting to them, and how much noise they generate compared to the 'background' once the train disappears.

HS2 will be a different kettle of fish in the level of noise protection built into it, either through noise barriers, cuttings or tunnels, all verified with clever computer noise modelling. You'll pretty much barely know its there, compared to a conventional railway or a motorway.

Look at HS1 in Kent, for example, unless you're pretty much stood on top of it, it blends in very well environmentally compared to the roads that it is typically alongside.

 

[JamesT]

I dont know them, but seems pretty obvious that upgrading an existing line would be much cheaper than starting from scratch with all the engineering involved.

I like the Victorian railways as part of the canal scenery too, a train going past is a nice sight and sound. But this is a different kettle of fish.

Hahahahaha. I suggest you look into the history of the West Coast Route Modernisation or indeed the electrification of the GWML if you think upgrading existing lines is easy or cheap.
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rail-alternatives-to-hs2 has an overview of some alternatives that were considered. You can spend similar amounts to HS2, spend years disrupting the existing network, and end up with a result that has less benefit than HS2.

 

[swt_passenger]

I dont know them, but seems pretty obvious that upgrading an existing line would be much cheaper than starting from scratch with all the engineering involved.

I gues you’ve missed all the previous discussions where this claim has been made, and generally discounted within a few pages?