Should the public challenge railway staff over Covid measures?

[AnkleBoots]

Journalist Dominic Lawson posted this experience from a Southeastern train:

"So I got up from my seat and suggested to the two railwaymen that perhaps they should follow the instructions given to their passengers and consider setting an example.

This did not go down well. The larger of them, a middle aged and somewhat overweight chap, declared he was 'exempt'—and became irate when I asked if he could provide a document in evidence of that.'"

DOMINIC LAWSON: Why do the mask rule-setters think they're immune?

DOMINIC LAWSON: I was surprised when my wife told me that on a train trip from our home in East Sussex to London, the only person in the carriage not wearing a mask was a member of staff.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Huntergreed]

Journalist Dominic Lawson posted this experience from a Southeastern train:

"So I got up from my seat and suggested to the two railwaymen that perhaps they should follow the instructions given to their passengers and consider setting an example.

This did not go down well. The larger of them, a middle aged and somewhat overweight chap, declared he was 'exempt'—and became irate when I asked if he could provide a document in evidence of that.'"

DOMINIC LAWSON: Why do the mask rule-setters think they're immune?

DOMINIC LAWSON: I was surprised when my wife told me that on a train trip from our home in East Sussex to London, the only person in the carriage not wearing a mask was a member of staff.

www.dailymail.co.uk

It’s not wise to do this, and it’s certainly not wise to ask for a proof of exemption when these are not required. Foolish behaviour.

Bear in mind staff have the power to ask you to leave and to use BTP force to ensure this if they so wish, it’s not wise to go around and asking for silly exemption certificates that do not even exist.

 

[baz962]

Could of just gone to the gov.uk website. It states transport staff are exempt.

 

[adc82140]

He is lucky they were railway staff, and had the professionalism not to thump him to be honest.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You don't have the right to ask someone to prove their exemption.

However, I do believe that anyone who asks someone to put a mask on should be wearing one themselves, without exception. Someone who is exempt should not be put in that role (so an exempt guard should not be asking people to put masks on). It destroys the message through hypocrisy otherwise.

And nor, under any circumstances whatsoever, should any member of staff be calling a passenger "an ignorant pig". Even if the passenger is being objectionable or even abusive. A level of professionalism is required of the job when in uniform, even if not on duty, and that professionalism requires defusing of a situation, not escalation of it.

FWIW, I remain of the view that it should be legally required for staff to wear while in the passenger compartment on the same basis as passengers. If shop staff have to, traincrew should too. A train is just a moving shop selling travel.

 

[Ascotroyal]

Should have minded his own business. Had he asked the wrong person he could have ended up getting thumped.

 

[birchesgreen]

Network Rail should be challenged about their ridiculous trumpeting of their "covid safe" one-way systems at stations.

 

[43066]

Journalist Dominic Lawson posted this experience from a Southeastern train:

"So I got up from my seat and suggested to the two railwaymen that perhaps they should follow the instructions given to their passengers and consider setting an example.

This did not go down well. The larger of them, a middle aged and somewhat overweight chap, declared he was 'exempt'—and became irate when I asked if he could provide a document in evidence of that.'"

DOMINIC LAWSON: Why do the mask rule-setters think they're immune?

DOMINIC LAWSON: I was surprised when my wife told me that on a train trip from our home in East Sussex to London, the only person in the carriage not wearing a mask was a member of staff.

www.dailymail.co.uk

What a dreadful article. The question posed by the headline “why do rule setters think they’re immune” immediately shows that all that follows will be nonsense. Train staff are not the rule setters, and they *are* immune! Peoples’ opinions on this will vary but, at the end of the day, that is the legal position.

The answer to the title of the thread is an emphatic “no”. Quite simply, people need to mind their own business.

And nor, under any circumstances whatsoever, should any member of staff be calling a passenger "an ignorant pig".

That might very well be made up for effect, of course.

 

[Philip]

You don't have the right to ask someone to prove their exemption.

However, I do believe that anyone who asks someone to put a mask on should be wearing one themselves, without exception. Someone who is exempt should not be put in that role (so an exempt guard should not be asking people to put masks on). It destroys the message through hypocrisy otherwise.

And nor, under any circumstances whatsoever, should any member of staff be calling a passenger "an ignorant pig". Even if the passenger is being objectionable or even abusive. A level of professionalism is required of the job when in uniform, even if not on duty, and that professionalism requires defusing of a situation, not escalation of it.

FWIW, I remain of the view that it should be legally required for staff to wear while in the passenger compartment on the same basis as passengers. If shop staff have to, traincrew should too. A train is just a moving shop selling travel.

What about ticket office staff behind the glass asking customers to wear a face covering? Not that it directly affects the staff in the office, but the risk of a member of the public infecting the counter/chip and pin machine etc increases if the customer isn't wearing a face covering.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What about ticket office staff behind the glass asking customers to wear a face covering? Not that it directly affects the staff in the office, but the risk of a member of the public infecting the counter/chip and pin machine etc increases if the customer isn't wearing a face covering.

If they were behind the glass and 2m distanced from any other staff, fine. There's always an exception proving the rule

 

[43066]

What about ticket office staff behind the glass asking customers to wear a face covering?

They shouldn’t be doing that in the first place.

 

[Philip]

They shouldn’t be doing that in the first place.

Why not? Degree of responsibility is needed from everyone here. I can see the point in it being good for railway staff to set an example by doing it themselves, but why shouldn't the guard or ticket staff ask the customers who aren't exempt to wear a face covering if they're not doing?

 

[Yew]

Should have minded his own business. Had he asked the wrong person he could have ended up getting thumped.

I'm glad so see we have such professionalism in our rail staff.

 

[Howardh]

A general member of the public has no right whatsoever to ask the medical conditions of anyone else (and I wrote that when everyone was speculationg over Johnson). A member of the public's medical history and condition is between them and their doctor. Not even their nearest and.

That "reporter" needs arresting if there's a patient confidentially law been broken.

 

[packermac]

You don't have the right to ask someone to prove their exemption.

However, I do believe that anyone who asks someone to put a mask on should be wearing one themselves, without exception. Someone who is exempt should not be put in that role (so an exempt guard should not be asking people to put masks on). It destroys the message through hypocrisy otherwise.

And nor, under any circumstances whatsoever, should any member of staff be calling a passenger "an ignorant pig". Even if the passenger is being objectionable or even abusive. A level of professionalism is required of the job when in uniform, even if not on duty, and that professionalism requires defusing of a situation, not escalation of it.

FWIW, I remain of the view that it should be legally required for staff to wear while in the passenger compartment on the same basis as passengers. If shop staff have to, traincrew should too. A train is just a moving shop selling travel.

Fully agree when I worked in the airline industry if you were travelling as a passenger you needed to adhere to the rules for passengers, not the staff. Rail staff should be setting an example not as I have seen suggested on here numerous times "just tell them you are exempt"

 

[43066]

Why not? Degree of responsibility is needed from everyone here. I can see the point in it being good for railway staff to set an example by doing it themselves, but why shouldn't the guard or ticket staff ask the customers who aren't exempt to wear a face covering if they're not doing?

Why not? For exactly the same reason I don’t go about inspecting tickets, manning gatelines, or dispatching trains. It simply isn’t my job to do so. My job is not to “set an example”, it’s to sit in the little box at the front and hoon the thing up and down the country, generally while drinking tea, preferably stopping where I’m meant to, and not otherwise screwing up. Both my union and my TOC agree with that position.

Guards need to make announcements about the requirement to wear face coverings (preferably mentioning exemptions). Rail staff (revenue aside) are not supposed to be enforcing these silly rules.

 

[packermac]

Why not? For exactly the same reason I don’t go about inspecting tickets, manning gatelines, or dispatching trains. It simply isn’t my job to do so. My job is not to “set an example”, it’s to sit in the little box at the front and hoon the thing up and down the country, generally while drinking tea, preferably stopping where I’m meant to, and not otherwise screwing up. Both my union and my TOC agree with that position.

Guards need to make announcements about the requirement to wear face coverings (preferably mentioning exemptions). Rail staff (revenue aside) are not supposed to be enforcing these silly rules.

So you never travel in your uniform anywhere than in the cab then?

 

[bramling]

Journalist Dominic Lawson posted this experience from a Southeastern train:

"So I got up from my seat and suggested to the two railwaymen that perhaps they should follow the instructions given to their passengers and consider setting an example.

This did not go down well. The larger of them, a middle aged and somewhat overweight chap, declared he was 'exempt'—and became irate when I asked if he could provide a document in evidence of that.'"

DOMINIC LAWSON: Why do the mask rule-setters think they're immune?

DOMINIC LAWSON: I was surprised when my wife told me that on a train trip from our home in East Sussex to London, the only person in the carriage not wearing a mask was a member of staff.

www.dailymail.co.uk

I’d have kicked him off at the point when he started asking for evidence.

 

[Busaholic]

I have no time for Dominic Lawson, generally speaking, any more than I did for his awful father, but the logic of his question brooks no argument. If the Covid virus is so dangerous, the principle of social distancing when not wearing a mask applies to everyone, otherwise you live in a Trumpian or Cummingsite world. I'm struck when watching TV reports from European and other countries how many public officials e.g. police on patrol both wear masks and socially distance when on normal duties i.e. not in a 999 situation, but the citizens of some of these countries wouldn't accept the ''don't do as I do, do as I say'' diktat from the over-privileged individuals who we've allowed to take over this country.

 

[43066]

So you never travel in your uniform anywhere than in the cab then?

Now that you mention it, I don’t really wear the correct uniform either. Nobody really cares, so long as I do my job correctly.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Oct 2020 ==

I’d have kicked him off at the point when he started asking for evidence.

Yep. If I encountered him, I’d declare myself a failure and dance my way back down the platform towards the messroom.

Christ I love this industry.

 

[Bikeman78]

Now that you mention it, I don’t really wear the correct uniform either. Nobody really cares, so long as I do my job correctly.

Reminds me of a train I saw arriving at Brussel Zuid station in a heatwave. Cab doors propped open, driver wearing T-shirt, shorts and sandals! By contrast the guards are usually very smartly turned out.

 

[Philip]

Why not? For exactly the same reason I don’t go about inspecting tickets, manning gatelines, or dispatching trains. It simply isn’t my job to do so. My job is not to “set an example”, it’s to sit in the little box at the front and hoon the thing up and down the country, generally while drinking tea, preferably stopping where I’m meant to, and not otherwise screwing up. Both my union and my TOC agree with that position.

Guards need to make announcements about the requirement to wear face coverings (preferably mentioning exemptions). Rail staff (revenue aside) are not supposed to be enforcing these silly rules.

As a driver you're not dealing with the public, ticket office staff are doing so. Of course ticket staff shouldn't be required to enforce face coverings and neither do they have the authority to enforce it, but I don't see anything wrong with politely asking/reminding customers, as I say particularly because it could potentially affect the next customers to use the counter/chip and pin machine.

 

[43066]

Reminds me of a train I saw arriving at Brussel Zuid station in a heatwave. Cab doors propped open, driver wearing T-shirt, shorts and sandals! By contrast the guards are usually very smartly turned out.

I’m pretty sure that, in Europe, drivers of passenger trains don’t have to wear any kind of uniform.

As a driver you're not dealing with the public,

With all due respect, I don’t need to be told that, that’s a big part of why I took the job on in the first place.

ticket office staff are doing so. Of course ticket staff shouldn't be required to enforce face coverings and neither do they have the authority to enforce it, but I don't see anything wrong with politely asking/reminding customers, as I say particularly because it could potentially affect the next customers to use the counter/chip and pin machine.

I disagree. Their job is to sell tickets. Why on Earth would they make their own lives more difficult by haranguing people for not wearing face coverings?!

 

[peakNed]

Reminds me of a train I saw arriving at Brussel Zuid station in a heatwave. Cab doors propped open, driver wearing T-shirt, shorts and sandals! By contrast the guards are usually very smartly turned out.

The way it should be, none of this ‘drivers are customer facing staff and should wear a suit’ nonsense

 

[43066]

The way it should be, none of this ‘drivers are customer facing staff and should wear a suit’ nonsense

Completely agree. Albeit I’d much rather wear an (anonymous) suit than a uniform.

You guys on the freight get away with wearing whatever you want to, and rightly so.

 

[Philip]

I disagree. Their job is to sell tickets. Why on Earth would they make their own lives more difficult by haranguing people for not wearing face coverings?!

Typical working to rule stance. Why? To try to ensure the ticket buying/travel enquiries area is as safe as possible for customers to use!

 

[bramling]

I have no time for Dominic Lawson, generally speaking, any more than I did for his awful father, but the logic of his question brooks no argument. If the Covid virus is so dangerous, the principle of social distancing when not wearing a mask applies to everyone, otherwise you live in a Trumpian or Cummingsite world. I'm struck when watching TV reports from European and other countries how many public officials e.g. police on patrol both wear masks and socially distance when on normal duties i.e. not in a 999 situation, but the citizens of some of these countries wouldn't accept the ''don't do as I do, do as I say'' diktat from the over-privileged individuals who we've allowed to take over this country.

The premise of his argument, once again, is “it’s not fair I’m wearing a mask and he’s not”, which is not a sound basis at all for trying to construct an argument - especially as two railway staff are hardly “rule setters” (neither, for that matter, is Stanley Johnson, even if he does increasingly come across as a complete imbecile).

Of course, he was quite happy to confront the staff by going up to them, so their lack of mask evidently didn’t bother him that much, otherwise he’d be wanting to keep as far away as possible.

I’m sick of these self-righteous busybodies who feel them have the right to interfere with others. It’s just as well I’ve been on leave for several weeks, as I’d have probably exploded at one by now - I’m all ready and set for it.

 

[43066]

Typical working to rule stance. Why? To try to ensure the ticket buying/travel enquiries area is as safe as possible for customers to use!

Lets apply a brutal dose of reality here:

As a driver, if I’m absent, and a train is cancelled as a result, that’s £10k plus. So £500 paid to a driver to do a shunt, and go back home, will continue. There’s some serious added value there. I sign a route with signalling that dates from the mid 1800s. That won’t be changing anytime soon, and we can therefore work to rule as a consequence (not that we generally do, as a rule, we do what we can up keep the job running).

Ticket office staff are behind glass, the safety of customers isn’t their problem. So why take it upon themselves to be jobsworths and sell (even) fewer tickets? They need to start adding value to the railway offering.

And people wonder why ticket offices are on borrowed time.