LNER refuse to waive admin fees for 'essential travel only' ticket changes

[Starmill]

I suppose I should not be so surprised about this, but large numbers of customers who have booked with LNER and others are unable to change their ticket now that trains in the North East are only for "essential" travel again:

In some parts of the UK, people have been advised against all but essential travel after a spike in Covid-19 cases.

However, passengers who bought advance tickets to travel to or from these areas are not entitled to refunds.

The passenger watchdog said customers shouldn't be left "out of pocket for doing the right thing".

Covid: Train passengers left out of pocket by local lockdowns

Customers are angry at being unable to get refunds for tickets they can't use because of Covid rules.

www.bbc.co.uk

It appears that Transport Focus are yet again being entirely ignored by the TOCs and the Department? It's a serious issue because booking isn't open for next year yet and won't be before some people's travel dates, so people will be hit with repeated £10 fees to keep on changing every time.

Of course people who booked with CrossCountry are fine because they can change the tickets an unlimited number of times without the fee. These people will be able to change their tickets to November, and then keep on requesting changes into the future until the 'essential travel only' advice is removed.

It could be useful if anyone lives in the North East if they can write to their MP to suggest contacting the Rail Minister or Secretary of State about this issue. It's crazy that this is even an argument, there's really no reason for LNER not to offer refund credit or an amendment.

 

[35B]

I suppose I should not be so surprised about this, but large numbers of customers who have booked with LNER and others are unable to change their ticket now that trains in the North East are only for "essential" travel again:

Covid: Train passengers left out of pocket by local lockdowns

Customers are angry at being unable to get refunds for tickets they can't use because of Covid rules.

www.bbc.co.uk

It appears that Transport Focus are yet again being entirely ignored by the TOCs and the Department? It's a serious issue because booking isn't open for next year yet and won't be before some people's travel dates, so people will be hit with repeated £10 fees to keep on changing every time.

Of course people who booked with CrossCountry are fine because they can change the tickets an unlimited number of times without the fee. These people will be able to change their tickets to November, and then keep on requesting changes into the future until the 'essential travel only' advice is removed.

It could be useful if anyone lives in the North East if they can write to their MP to suggest contacting the Rail Minister or Secretary of State about this issue. It's crazy that this is even an argument, there's really no reason for LNER not to offer refund credit or an amendment.

There is a reason, and it's DafT. The answer to this is political, and it relies on ministers deciding that it's worth getting their civil servants to change the instructions to TOCs not to give any form of concession on customer rights.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is Rishi's credit card a bit full?

The admin fee (for all transaction types) needs binning entirely - that would be the easiest solution and it doesn't in any way reflect the actual administrative cost of an electronic transaction.

 

[Starmill]

The admin fee (for all transaction types) needs binning entirely

I would agree with that, but this is even more basic.

Eurostar for example declared that until the end of the year they'd allow free changes on all bookings. They don't allow any refunds by choice of the customer except in Business, although that's pretty much irrelevant because you don't really need to book Business in advance. That'd be rather better than what we have here from LNER.

 

[35B]

I would agree with that, but this is even more basic.

Eurostar for example declared that until the end of the year they'd allow free changes on all bookings. They don't allow any refunds by choice of the customer except in Business, although that's pretty much irrelevant because you don't really need to book Business in advance. That'd be rather better than what we have here from LNER.

And, to reiterate, DfT have set a policy that all TOCs, not just LNER, must follow and do not have discretion to vary.

 

[Starmill]

And, to reiterate, DfT have set a policy that all TOCs, not just LNER, must follow and do not have discretion to vary.

Why are you reiterating this? I think we read it the first time?

 

[35B]

Why are you reiterating this? I think we read it the first time?

Because your post focused on LNER, who are merely implementing the directive that they're being given. Focusing on the TOCs just lets DfT and ministers off the hook of what is a government decision, not a TOC decision.

 

[Starmill]

Because your post focused on LNER, who are merely implementing the directive that they're being given. Focusing on the TOCs just lets DfT and ministers off the hook of what is a government decision, not a TOC decision.

Hm. If you'd read the article, you'd note that the government are quoted. They specifically said that normal refund conditions apply. While someone might want a refund on their Advance ticket, I don't think anyone here has claimed they should necessarily get one? The thread is about administration fees, and it does have a proper title. I did allude to 'refund credit', but as this isn't a cash refund it's not the same, and only if the amendment couldn't be processed for some reason.

A spokesman added: "Significant taxpayer funding continues to help maintain rail services which is supporting the country's recovery from the pandemic and, after careful consideration, the government does not intend to allow refunds for non-refundable advance tickets."

Internal information shared elsewhere on the forum also shows that the instructions from RDG also say that Advance tickets aren't refundable (except in line with the normal conditions), which supports this position.

So to come onto your claims, which I didn't address in detail before but you force me to:

all TOCs, not just LNER, must follow and do not have discretion to vary.

Do you have some evidence for this? Because not all retailers are government-controlled and they all appear to have their own policies on changing tickets, so this seems to be completely incorrect?

change the instructions to TOCs not to give any form of concession on customer rights.

Saying that there have been such instructions is a seriously outlandish claim and could even be unlawful. I assume that you could present some further evidence for this?

Of course, you could counter that it's just the general principle you were highlighting (even though you've just gone well beyond that!) and that ultimately the buck stops with the government. This is of course correct, and despite your complaint that there's 'focus' on LNER, was even specifically recognised in the post that you quoted:

It could be useful if anyone lives in the North East if they can write to their MP to suggest contacting the Rail Minister or Secretary of State about this issue. It's crazy that this is even an argument, there's really no reason for LNER not to offer refund credit or an amendment.

As I hinted at in the opening post, it's worth nothing here because it could be better for customers if they just used one of the other long-distance operators who served the North East to buy their tickets online from rather than LNER.

 

[miami]

Of course people who booked with CrossCountry are fine because they can change the tickets an unlimited number of times without the fee.

And, to reiterate, DfT have set a policy that all TOCs, not just LNER, must follow and do not have discretion to vary.

These posts seem conflicting

 

[robbeech]

These posts seem conflicting

Of course it is, it's the railway.

LNER were offering above and beyond the rules set out at the start of the pandemic, so much so that they had to change their policy. Perhaps they're not risking anything now, though quite how other operators (with their retailer's hat on) get away with it i don't know.

Encouraging travel to and from areas of concern is NOT ideal, in my opinion, and this is exactly what they are doing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they aren't going to handle this properly, then all Advance ticket sales should be stopped, with only (Super) Off Peak and Anytime available.

 

[35B]

Hm. If you'd read the article, you'd note that the government are quoted. They specifically said that normal refund conditions apply. While someone might want a refund on their Advance ticket, I don't think anyone here has claimed they should necessarily get one? The thread is about administration fees, and it does have a proper title. I did allude to 'refund credit', but as this isn't a cash refund it's not the same, and only if the amendment couldn't be processed for some reason.

Internal information shared elsewhere on the forum also shows that the instructions from RDG also say that Advance tickets aren't refundable (except in line with the normal conditions), which supports this position.

So to come onto your claims, which I didn't address in detail before but you force me to:

Do you have some evidence for this? Because not all retailers are government-controlled and they all appear to have their own policies on changing tickets, so this seems to be completely incorrect?

Saying that there have been such instructions is a seriously outlandish claim and could even be unlawful. I assume that you could present some further evidence for this?

Of course, you could counter that it's just the general principle you were highlighting (even though you've just gone well beyond that!) and that ultimately the buck stops with the government. This is of course correct, and despite your complaint that there's 'focus' on LNER, was even specifically recognised in the post that you quoted:



As I hinted at in the opening post, it's worth nothing here because it could be better for customers if they just used one of the other long-distance operators who served the North East to buy their tickets online from rather than LNER.

To be clear, DfT are not refusing to allow changes, but insisting that TOCs apply the letter of the terms and conditions on tickets. The control exercised over TOCs under the ERMAs is extremely tight, and fundamentally unlike any government control we've seen over the passenger railway's ability to do business since nationalisation. What an independent retailer may choose to do of it's own volition may differ from what a TOC will then do with the TOC.

So, in response to your charge that I'm accusing DfT of breaking consumer law, no I'm not - at least, no more than they are already inclined to do! I am however stating that it is DfT who are removing the normal commercial freedom a TOC may have to settle independently with goodwill, and requiring an absolutist stance. For the same reason, though the story quoted did indeed specifically reference LNER, I found it symptomatic of the quality of general reporting on the railway by focusing on one operator and lockdown area, without adequately presenting the way that this is industry wide (with the possible exceptions, due to their funding, of TfW, Scotrail and CS). Therefore, I could purchase from any of the franchised operators, and I would suffer the same lack of flexibility, and the same financial risk should I travel.

The scandal, and it's not too strong a word, is that this behaviour is being justified on the basis that it mitigates the cost to the taxpayer of supporting the railway. It actually magnifies that cost, by ensuring that people won't travel because they can't or won't take the financial risk.

 

[Starmill]

To be clear, DfT are not refusing to allow changes, but insisting that TOCs apply the letter of the terms and conditions on tickets.

Good! And as I believe has been explained several ways now, not charging the fee is quite compliant with the conditions, provided that none of the other restrictions are broken. If it weren't, CrossCountry, TransPennine Express, Southeastern and the others wouldn't be allowed to do it. Unless your argument is that they weren't TOCs subject to EMA and EMRA?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Oct 2020 ==

For the same reason, though the story quoted did indeed specifically reference LNER, I found it symptomatic of the quality of general reporting on the railway by focusing on one operator and lockdown area, without adequately presenting the way that this is industry wide

You're right that the BBC didn't say that, and it's because if they had said that they would have been wrong.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 6 Oct 2020 ==

If they aren't going to handle this properly, then all Advance ticket sales should be stopped, with only (Super) Off Peak and Anytime available.

I agree that this would be better, but argue that it would be easier to just make all tickets free to amend across the board, regardless of type, medium or location of sale. That would be perfectly simple for consumers to understand.

 

[infobleep]

To be clear, DfT are not refusing to allow changes, but insisting that TOCs apply the letter of the terms and conditions on tickets. The control exercised over TOCs under the ERMAs is extremely tight, and fundamentally unlike any government control we've seen over the passenger railway's ability to do business since nationalisation. What an independent retailer may choose to do of it's own volition may differ from what a TOC will then do with the TOC.

So, in response to your charge that I'm accusing DfT of breaking consumer law, no I'm not - at least, no more than they are already inclined to do! I am however stating that it is DfT who are removing the normal commercial freedom a TOC may have to settle independently with goodwill, and requiring an absolutist stance. For the same reason, though the story quoted did indeed specifically reference LNER, I found it symptomatic of the quality of general reporting on the railway by focusing on one operator and lockdown area, without adequately presenting the way that this is industry wide (with the possible exceptions, due to their funding, of TfW, Scotrail and CS). Therefore, I could purchase from any of the franchised operators, and I would suffer the same lack of flexibility, and the same financial risk should I travel.

The scandal, and it's not too strong a word, is that this behaviour is being justified on the basis that it mitigates the cost to the taxpayer of supporting the railway. It actually magnifies that cost, by ensuring that people won't travel because they can't or won't take the financial risk.

What about Cross-country?

I am wanting to travel to Burton on Trent at the end of November for a long weekend to visit friends.

Buying tickets in advance can be cheaper. However what happens if there is a lockdown? I lose out if I buy through certain TOCs? However if their isn't a lockdown and I wait until the last minute, the price could be rather expensive. Price for trave from Guildford to Burton on Trent tomorrow and returning on Friday is £93.40 off peak. That might put someone off travelling.

Obviously there are ways to reduce that cost but I'm just quoting the through fare.

Of course if it is only advice to undertake essential journeys only then just make the journey anyway. You aren't breaking the law. Well not in England at least.

 

[317 forever]

I believe that we have only been advised not instructed to avoid travel to the North Easy. I can therefore understand TOCs not waiving admin fees when we have not been mandated to avoid travel. However, as LNER (and Northern) are government-run TOCs it is open to question whether 1 government voice should advise us not to travel while another government voice penalises people for agreeing to act accordingly.

 

[Starmill]

I believe that we have only been advised not instructed to avoid travel to the North Easy. I can therefore understand TOCs not waiving admin fees when we have not been mandated to avoid travel. However, as LNER (and Northern) are government-run TOCs it is open to question whether 1 government voice should advise us not to travel while another government voice penalises people for agreeing to act accordingly.

Here we get into semantics. It's not a criminal offence to travel on public transport to the North East in and of itself. This would be rather a high bar though given the circumstances.
But both gov.uk and lner.co.uk use the term "restrictions" to describe the state of travel in and to and from the North East. Either way it doesn't answer the real question here, which is why they think it's reasonable to charge (potentially multiple lots of) a £10 fee.

 

[island]

What about Cross-country?

I am wanting to travel to Burton on Trent at the end of November for a long weekend to visit friends.

CrossCountry do not want anyone to travel with them, at all

 

[Bletchleyite]

I believe that we have only been advised not instructed to avoid travel to the North Easy. I can therefore understand TOCs not waiving admin fees when we have not been mandated to avoid travel. However, as LNER (and Northern) are government-run TOCs it is open to question whether 1 government voice should advise us not to travel while another government voice penalises people for agreeing to act accordingly.

I think that aspect of it is rank hypocrisy, yes.

I retain my view that on the day lockdown started Advances should have been effectively abolished. They have only caused problems. Reduce other fares temporarily if necessary.

 

[Starmill]

The policy has, at long last, been reversed. Tickets will be amended for free for journeys to High or Very High risk areas in England, with the offer backdated to when restrictions began (not clear if this goes right back to the first local restrictions in July).

As ever all government u-turns are welcome but this one has taken much, much much longer than it ought to have done. The reputational hit will have been significant. The railway has a severe customer service blindspot for this sort of thing which is becoming so serious that it may even threaten its ongoing existence.

Hopefully all companies who wouldn't allow the changes to be made in August without a fee will be contacting customers who may have let their tickets lapse unused to advise them of their right to amend them. Exchanges are to be done by excess procedure or Rail Travel Voucher.

 

[Haywain]

with the offer backdated to when restrictions began (not clear if this goes right back to the first local restrictions in July).

The briefing issued refers to areas with restrictions defined by the relatively new 3 tier arrangements, so I suspect it is designed to tie in with those. However, the government announcement on this does not refer to that aspect at all, helpfully leaving things as clear as mud.

The railway has a severe customer service blindspot for this sort of thing

Note that this was announced by the government, not the TOCs or RDG, and it is they who don't give a fig for customers and have firm control of policies such as this.