UK face coverings discussion

[peteb]

It's a pity noone has invented the mask that doesn't cause glasses to steam up! I've tried all kinds of masks and different designs of specs but all steam up, so I'm constantly removing my specs to wipe them. Even with the special anti-mist spray. It does make train travel quite a chore, given that I enjoy looking out of the window! However I always wear a mask where necessary: I dont understand why anyone who doesn't have a medical reason not to wear one should try to get round the system.

 

[MikeWM]

I open the bidding with this paper from the Royal Society and British Academy https://royalsociety.org/-/media/po...a=en-GB&hash=A22A87CB28F7D6AD9BD93BBCBFC2BB24
which states "Cloth face masks and coverings for the general public are effective in improving: i) source protection, i.e., reduced virus transmission from the wearer when they are of optimal material and construction and fitted correctly; and ii) wearer protection, i.e., reduced rate of infection of those who wear them".

As I've pointed out on here a number of times already, the conclusions of that paper bear no resemblance to the evidence presented.

They examined 4 studies on cloth masks *in medical settings* *all in China* *for other diseases* - one of which showed no effect! The details are on page 7. Page 30 points out the many reasons why there are serious issues with drawing over-wide conclusions from this very specific and limited evidence. Nevertheless - to the shame of the Royal Society - they did anyway, despite what is contained in their own paper.

 

[Yew]

I challenge any of the self justifying contributors to this thread to produce evidence that face masks are not effective.

I shall produce evidence to the contrary, and yes I know how hard it is to get proper randomised trials in epidemiological settings and that I am linking to a preprint which was yet to be peer reviewed.

I open the bidding with this paper from the Royal Society and British Academy https://royalsociety.org/-/media/po...a=en-GB&hash=A22A87CB28F7D6AD9BD93BBCBFC2BB24
which states "Cloth face masks and coverings for the general public are effective in improving: i) source protection, i.e., reduced virus transmission from the wearer when they are of optimal material and construction and fitted correctly; and ii) wearer protection, i.e., reduced rate of infection of those who wear them".

Isn't that the same study that criticised others for an "over-reliance on evidence"?

 

[Bikeman78]

I had my boiler serviced recently and the engineer said that it’s been a “total nightmare”, some people have been going into their gardens whilst he’s been working.

This is hilarious! Do these people think that the virus fills up their whole house whilst the boiler engineer is there and then magically disappears when he leaves? It's barely stopped raining in Cardiff for three days. I bet people aren't waiting in their gardens now.

 

[bramling]

This is hilarious! Do these people think that the virus fills up their whole house whilst the boiler engineer is there and then magically disappears when he leaves? It's barely stopped raining in Cardiff for three days. I bet people aren't waiting in their gardens now.

I think a lot of things are going to come into focus now the weather has shifted - especially down south where summer hasn't been too bad (I realise the north has had a rather grey summer, which some people seem to be starting to wonder may have a bearing in the disposition of infections we're now seeing!).

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 4 Oct 2020 ==

Presumably you could have had your conversation with the policeman on your doorstep (at an appropriate distance) if you didn't want him coming in maskless?

I think a lot of people need to get a grip, and I know that has been the theme of this thread!

It didn't bother me at all, but I did wonder how Karen might have reacted!

 

[Dent]

I had my boiler serviced recently and the engineer said that it’s been a “total nightmare”, some people have been going into their gardens whilst he’s been working.

Not sure how the residents being in the garden constitutes a "complete nightmare" for the engineer. I would have thought most engineers would find it easier to work with the residents out of the way but near enough to contact if needed.

 

[bramling]

Not sure how the residents being in the garden constitutes a "complete nightmare" for the engineer. I would have thought most engineers would find it easier to work with the residents out of the way but near enough to contact if needed.

He was more referring to the way some people had been behaving. Essentially they don’t want people in the house, but at the same time want their heating fixed - clearly they can’t have both...

 

[778]

Does the legislation for face coverings still expire on July 24th next year? If a successful vaccine is introduced before then, there could be no possible reason for masks to be compulsory in any setting and the legislation should be scrapped. If masks are still compulsory this time next year, then I would be worried about it becoming permanent.

 

[Grecian 1998]

Masks have been compulsory outdoors in Paris since Friday 28 August unless you're exercising - possibly the only time running away from the police is a good idea. This hasn't done enough as bars will have to close from Tuesday 6 October.

Any idea where Paris can mandate masks next, as outdoors isn't enough to bring infection rates down? Municipal government must be running out of idea by now. Would 2 or perhaps 3 masks per person be safer?

 

[duncanp]

Would 2 or perhaps 3 masks per person be safer?

Sshh!!!!

Of course it would be safer

But for Pete's sake don't go giving ideas to Matt Hancock, Karen from Facebook and the Mumsnet brigade.

 

[island]

Does the legislation for face coverings still expire on July 24th next year? If a successful vaccine is introduced before then, there could be no possible reason for masks to be compulsory in any setting and the legislation should be scrapped. If masks are still compulsory this time next year, then I would be worried about it becoming permanent.

From memory it expires on June 14th as respects public transport and July 23rd as respects other indoor settings.

 

[jumble]

@island has responded to the challenge in the same way I suspect any ‘anti-masker’ would, i.e. to be effective, masks have to be of the correct type, properly fitted and properly used. Your evidence in fact reinforces the view that the government’s face covering mandate is a waste of time, and I’d add to that potentially harmful.

I would take the view that rather than "anti-masker", "anyone with a modicum of common sense " would be more appropriate

 

[DustyBin]

I would take the view that rather than "anti-masker", "anyone with a modicum of common sense " would be more appropriate

Well yes, quite.

 

[trebor79]

I think there are some people who feel a deep anger about being forced to wear something that has no proven benefit, and absolutely hate having to wear a face covering. They are filled with an unconscious self-loathing, every time they put one on, knowing deep down inside that they are doing it merely to avoid standing out from the crowd, to ‘fit-in’. Mentally, that conflict between logic and conformity is very hard to accept. So when such a person sees others doing the chin-wearing or otherwise not complying, I think that the unconscious self-loathing manifests itself in an angry outburst at another person. I lay the blame for such incidents squarely at the politicians, for mandating face coverings just to be seen to be ‘doing something’.
Of course, while we are fighting amongst ourselves, we’re not getting angry at the inept politicians, which suits them just fine...

I do feel the loathing that you describe when I feel pressured to put a mask on. But when I see someone barefaced, I think "good on you mate".

Cummings is a clever guy, but you need him to be on your side of the argument. That worked well for me, as far as Brexit was concerned, but rather less so these days!

I'm still wondering when the press are going to unearth the skeletons in Cumming's closet. I'm absolutely amazed that his escapades as a younger man haven't come to light yet. I was growing up in Durham when he worked in his uncles nightclub. Let's just say his description that "I just took the [door] money" wasn't the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth...

 

[nlogax]

I'm still wondering when the press are going to unearth the skeletons in Cumming's closet. I'm absolutely amazed that his escapades as a younger man haven't come to light yet. I was growing up in Durham when he worked in his uncles nightclub. Let's just say his description that "I just took the [door] money" wasn't the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth...

I've come around to the opinion that skeletons in the closets of people in the public eye decreasingly matter. Public opinion of every hue in reaction to news stories about anything and everything is aired everywhere we look. With polarized social media, news and opinion sites, forums, YouTube etc, people like Cummings are clued-up enough they can happily brave out unsavoury aspects of their lives with little consequence.

 

[MattA7]

Maybe they will mandate wearing one in your their own home and encourage family members to report people in their household not complying

 

[VauxhallandI]

Top picture is the current sign at the entrance of Tesco with no exemptions mentioned, the second is the one Tesco have confirmed should be up. Although as of 5pm they still haven’t put it up

I complained to Tesco about their sign being non compliant with the law. The first response ignored my point entirely and waffled on about staff wearing masks. It is good to see that today they have written to me confirming that the poster on the right should be up. I look forward to seeing it up later on.

 

[MikeWM]

I complained to Tesco about their sign being non compliant with the law. The first response ignored my point entirely and waffled on about staff wearing masks. It is good to see that today they have written to me confirming that the poster on the right should be up. I look forward to seeing it up later on.

Rather a shame they've lost the word 'please' though. While the newer sign does mention exemptions (in rather small type!) it also feels significantly bossier.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Rather a shame they've lost the word 'please' though. While the newer sign does mention exemptions (in rather small type!) it also feels significantly bossier.

I quite agree but I don't have any traction with that.

 

[43066]

View attachment 84262View attachment 84263

I complained to Tesco about their sign being non compliant with the law. The first response ignored my point entirely and waffled on about staff wearing masks. It is good to see that today they have written to me confirming that the poster on the right should be up. I look forward to seeing it up later on.

Good for you for calling this out, although it’s incredibly frustrating that the sign didn’t mention exemptions in the first place.

On a more positive note, in stark contrast to the aggressive signage, Tesco very much takes a laissez faire approach to mask wearing.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Good for you for calling this out, although it’s incredibly frustrating that the sign didn’t mention exemptions in the first place.

On a more positive note, in stark contrast to the aggressive signage, Tesco very much takes a laissez faire approach to mask wearing.

Yes I haven't had any issues however I have a sneaky suspicion that the abuse I received for touching a can of deodorant on the top shelf was more connected to my lack of mask wearing than the issue that customers shouldn't touch the top shelf. Obviously just my theory.

 

[trebor79]

I think masks are here to stay for a very long time, unfortunately. And although I continue to hope that at some point people will realise the ridiculousness of wearing the stupid things, that's unlikely whilst the propaganda machine is in full swing. I note these words have tarted appearing at the bottom of every BBC news article that mentions masks:

Face coverings reduce the spread of coronavirus droplets from coughs, sneezes and speaking.

They should mainly be worn to protect other people from coronavirus, rather than yourself.

I think they've missed a few words, such as "might", "possibly" etc. But at least they aren't claiming that just breathing can spread droplets.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I was sent a youtube link with scientific studies proving masks are utterly pointless and truly should not be used. Would post it here but I suspect it would not be allowed! It is eye opening!

I too was sent a YouTube link showing scientific studies of how various masks shed nanoparticles and fibres which end up being breathed in and clogging up the lungs. I fear a ticking timebomb of increased COPD

 

[MattA7]

I was sent a youtube link with scientific studies proving masks are utterly pointless and truly should not be used. Would post it here but I suspect it would not be allowed! It is eye opening!

I of course do wear masks on public transport, and in shops but it is tough on a long rail journey I tell you!

I remember hearing doctors took The oxygen saturation levels of hospital staff before and after starting shift and said that at the end of the shift their oxygen levels had dropped to levels that they would immediately put patients on supplementary oxygen therapy.

 

[talldave]

I remember hearing doctors took The oxygen saturation levels of hospital staff before and after starting shift and said that at the end of the shift their oxygen levels had dropped to levels that they would immediately put patients on supplementary oxygen therapy.

But at least we can look forward to a winter without flu, as I presume the magic of masks works for influenza too?

 

[trebor79]

I remember hearing doctors took The oxygen saturation levels of hospital staff before and after starting shift and said that at the end of the shift their oxygen levels had dropped to levels that they would immediately put patients on supplementary oxygen therapy.

I hate the mask mandate as much as anyone, but the oxygen/CO2 thing is a complete fallacy. There's about half a litre of air being moved with every breath, the idea that anything other than a tiny proportion will be reinhalation of exhaled breath trapped behind a mask is facile.
It's stuff like this which enables any debate over masks to be shut down instantly.

 

[NorthOxonian]

I think masks are here to stay for a very long time, unfortunately. And although I continue to hope that at some point people will realise the ridiculousness of wearing the stupid things, that's unlikely whilst the propaganda machine is in full swing. I note these words have tarted appearing at the bottom of every BBC news article that mentions masks:


I think they've missed a few words, such as "might", "possibly" etc. But at least they aren't claiming that just breathing can spread droplets.

My biggest fear isn't their use now, but is the growing number of people who seem to want to see their use permanently. They usually claim that people in Asia wear them all the time (which is blatantly untrue), so we should as well. I hate the sight of masks, and while I will put up with them for now (because they probably do have benefits, at least in reducing viral load), I don't want to live the rest of my life in some horrid faceless society.

 

[Ianno87]

But at least we can look forward to a winter without flu, as I presume the magic of masks works for influenza too?

Certainly an interesting experiment.

Plus the effect on the usual coughs and colds, which may reduce.

Looking back at pre-Covid tube carriages, one wonders why wearing of a face covering when travelling with sniffles wasn't normal practice in the first place...

 

[43066]

Looking back at pre-Covid tube carriages, one wonders why wearing of a face covering when travelling with sniffles wasn't normal practice in the first place...

Probably because they don’t really work, they’re uncomfortable, dystopian and most people (at least pre Covid) aren’t hypochondriacs who are incapable of assessing risk.

 

[kristiang85]

They usually claim that people in Asia wear them all the time (which is blatantly untrue)

Yes it's just seen as the 'done thing' in some parts of South/South East Asia to wear masks if you have a cough/cold but are still going to work. It's not something people do every day of their lives.

I can see that habit coming here to be honest - and better habits in general, i.e. not having the office heroes coming in from their sick bed spreading around all their germs. That can only be a good thing.