Could TfW double up more units to increase capacity?

[Jamesrob637]

Moderator note: Split from

How busy have your trains been?

I thought it would be worth creating a thread where people can say how busy their trains have been. If anyone wants to write a lengthy trip report, this would be best in a dedicated thread, but this thread can be used for observations. I'll start with the 1002 York to Kings Cross this morning...

www.railforums.co.uk

Just boarded a 2-coach 175 at Hereford, the 1031 ex-Man Picc. It’s packed, people standing in the aisles and some having to ignore the do not use notices on the seats.

I expect the reason they would give is that there aren’t any 3-coach sets available, but knowing that half the seats are out of use what do they think will happen? Bit daft harping on about social distancing.

it’s going all the way to Milford Haven, thank goodness I am getting off at Newport.

Can't TfW do a Cross Country and double up what is running?

 

[trainophile]

Can't TfW do a Cross Country and double up what is running?

Probably haven’t got any more spares. They must be the current worst operator in the whole UK. Wish I never had to use them again.

 

[PHILIPE]

Can't TfW do a Cross Country and double up what is running?

They are already using all available units as it is and doubling up due to social distance spreading out.

 

[Jamesrob637]

TfW aren't using the Mk3s right now, are they? Not that I believe any were/are in use on Sundays but I mean in general.

 

[Dai Corner]

TfW aren't using the Mk3s right now, are they? Not that I believe any were/are in use on Sundays but I mean in general.

I don't think they're allowed to as they're not PRM-compliant.

 

[43096]

TfW aren't using the Mk3s right now, are they? Not that I believe any were/are in use on Sundays but I mean in general.

The Mark 3s are off lease (and indeed have apparently been sold on) and are no longer available to TfW.

 

[markymark2000]

I don't get why TFW are struggling so much though when ATW was so good. I admit, they weren't perfect and overcrowding did happen but arguebly no where near as bad as it is happening now in North Wales and Chester.

Since the franchise change, TFW has acquired 14 x class 153s & 10 x class 170s. That's a good few extra trains.
In the same time, TFW has only lost, 2 trains (The Business Premier train and the NWC MK3 set).
How can you have a net gain of 22 trains with minimal service enhancements and still have less carriages than before? It just doesn't make sense.

Ok, then you look at now, you are on reduced services so less trains needed and yet still, they can't manage to put more trains out despite the net increase. What is going on in the company? The way in which the company has dealt with things over the past year reinforces the fact they have no care for North Wales or for routes which they run outside of Wales. There has to be some backhanders on the go here as if this standard of service was provided by another TOC, politicians would be going ape yet in Wales, almost silence and nothing will be sorted until there is a penalty for them running such a shoddy service. If I was in the DFT right now, I would have taken the Manchester - NWC, Liverpool to Chester and Chester to Crewe off them and given them to another TOC.

 

[Dai Corner]

I don't get why TFW are struggling so much though when ATW was so good. I admit, they weren't perfect and overcrowding did happen but arguebly no where near as bad as it is happening now in North Wales and Chester.

Since the franchise change, TFW has acquired 14 x class 153s & 10 x class 170s. That's a good few extra trains.
In the same time, TFW has only lost, 2 trains (The Business Premier train and the NWC MK3 set).
How can you have a net gain of 22 trains with minimal service enhancements and still have less carriages than before? It just doesn't make sense.

Ok, then you look at now, you are on reduced services so less trains needed and yet still, they can't manage to put more trains out despite the net increase. What is going on in the company? The way in which the company has dealt with things over the past year reinforces the fact they have no care for North Wales or for routes which they run outside of Wales. There has to be some backhanders on the go here as if this standard of service was provided by another TOC, politicians would be going ape yet in Wales, almost silence and nothing will be sorted until there is a penalty for them running such a shoddy service. If I was in the DFT right now, I would have taken the Manchester - NWC, Liverpool to Chester and Chester to Crewe off them and given them to another TOC.

Those additional trains are all running around the south east. The 153s coupled to (usually empty) Pacers on the Rhymney Valley branch and the 170s between Maesteg, Cardiff and Gloucester and on the Ebbw Vale line.

TfW run the services the Welsh Government tell them to.

The Transport Minister's constituency is in north Wales and he's got the secondary role of Minister for north Wales so it's disappointing if that part is being neglected. Don't get me started on the Welsh Government running services in England!

 

[trainophile]

I may have already mentioned this but last Friday they put a 2-car 150 on the 1231 Man Pic to Milford Haven 6-hour run. Unbelievable.

 

[markymark2000]

What about losing all the Pacers ???? They have kept a few with a limited exemption, but due to DDA compliance legislation the Pacers aren't fit for purpose.
Give TFW a break they got left with a lot of inherited problems & have huge ambitious plans for the franchise. In a few years all the lines will have new train's, plus more services planned for the future. The plans aren't perfect admittedly but the future looks better than it was under ATW !

They can't have inherited many problems as ATW ran like clockwork for years. How, almost over a year did things change that much and go from excellent to atrocious? I can't see how ATW is so much to blame. Pacers may not be fit for purpose long term and I can fully understand the issues around that. Anyone would have had those issues. My issue is in North Wales where no Pacers run. Explain the issues there? There has been an increase in at least 4 diagrams yet all the trains which have come in, went down south so North Wales is left with less capacity. When the D-Trains become active where are the 150s going? Not to support the overcrowding on the North Wales Coast which TFW caused, they're moving down south so when will this problem be sorted? In 2023 when the new trains come in? Great, 3 more years of this atrocious service and then you have snagging issues and we don't even know how good the new trains will be. Taking into account all of the plans for increased services everywhere, will Manchester to North Wales (arguably one of the biggest money earners for TFW) even benefit or are they just milking it to fund other services to little villages of 30 people because 1 man and his dog wants to go the shops on a Friday (summarised: Will they just milk the route to fund empty trains elsewhere)

To say the future looks better than it did with ATW, are you being paid to say that because no one in their right mind would say that off their own back. Yes more services might run but that is because that is what they are contracted to do. ATW would have had to do the same! Only difference is, it would likely have been done much better and with a care for passengers and without the incompetence. You go and ask any commuter on the way into Manchester who runs trains better and the majority will tell you not TFW. That is why commuters vote with their feet and pre Covid when there was a choice, chose to use Northern and avoid TFW if they could because it's a shambles of an operation. A toddler could run it better.

Those additional trains are all running around the south east. The 153s coupled to (usually empty) Pacers on the Rhymney Valley branch and the 170s between Maesteg, Cardiff and Gloucester and on the Ebbw Vale line.

TfW run the services the Welsh Government tell them to.

The Transport Minister's constituency is in north Wales and he's got the secondary role of Minister for north Wales so it's disappointing if that part is being neglected. Don't get me started on the Welsh Government running services in England!

If all of these trains are in South Wales then why is North Wales so heavily affected by the overcrowding etc. In North Wales, only the 2 loco hauled trains have gone so that is 2 diagrams. Those 2 diagrams replaced with other trains does not cause this level of overcrowding. This is incompetence from the management who are too up themselves to admit that they can't run a railway.

I know TFW run what the Welsh Govt tell them to. That backs up my point then that the WAG is incompetent as well as TFW management.

As for the Transport Minister.... Well... Where do we start with him. Proof that in some areas certain parties could put a monkey up for election and people would vote for them. His salary is the biggest waste of money I've ever seen.

 

[Llandudno]

In normal NON Covid times you get the feeling as a customer, that the timetables in north Wales are planned for the convenience of the rail operator and are not necessarily in the best interest of the passenger.

Non clockface timetables
Large gaps in service then trains bunched together like London buses
Abysmal Saturday evening and Sunday service on north Wales Coast
No trains after mid evening east bound from Holyhead/Bangor
Irregular stopping patterns
Short formed trains
Cancelled trains through lack of train crew
Poor connections at key stations
Poor marketing of tourist routes
No day returns on north Wales Coast (Llandudno to Liverpool day return is cheaper than Llandudno to Chester!)

Not all the above failings are down to TfW but the WAG must share some responsibility.

Looking forward to seeing what the recast timetables will be like from December 2022?
When through trains from Liverpool to Llandudno/Shrewsbury/Cardiff are introduced along with Manchester to Bangor. A great opportunity to sort out some of their failings, but will they grasp it?

 

[Jamesrob637]

In normal NON Covid times you get the feeling as a customer, that the timetables in north Wales are planned for the convenience of the rail operator and are not necessarily in the best interest of the passenger.

Non clockface timetables
Large gaps in service then trains bunched together like London buses
Abysmal Saturday evening and Sunday service on north Wales Coast
No trains after mid evening east bound from Holyhead/Bangor
Irregular stopping patterns
Short formed trains
Cancelled trains through lack of train crew
Poor connections at key stations
Poor marketing of tourist routes
No day returns on north Wales Coast (Llandudno to Liverpool day return is cheaper than Llandudno to Chester!)

Not all the above failings are down to TfW but the WAG must share some responsibility.

Looking forward to seeing what the recast timetables will be like from December 2022?
When through trains from Liverpool to Llandudno/Shrewsbury/Cardiff are introduced along with Manchester to Bangor. A great opportunity to sort out some of their failings, but will they grasp it?

Add to that no proper trains anymore.

 

[Bald Rick]

How can you have a net gain of 22 trains with minimal service enhancements and still have less carriages than before? It just doesn't make sense.

Who is going to drive the new trains?

 

[markymark2000]

Who is going to drive the new trains?

I've not seen many issues with staff to be fair so I don't think it is driver problems. It's just a case of the trains not being in the right places to double up. They must be accommodating some sort of huge peak demand elsewhere because it's certainly not on the NWC - Manchester line.

Most of the new trains did go towards doubling up but that was all South Wales doubling up and had no impact on anywhere north of the Valleys.

 

[Bald Rick]

I've not seen many issues with staff to be fair so I don't think it is driver problems.

Well you wouldn’t ‘see’ them. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist. (Or in the case of drivers fully traction and route competent, do exist).

 

[markymark2000]

Well you wouldn’t ‘see’ them. That doesn’t mean they don’t exist. (Or in the case of drivers fully traction and route competent, do exist).

I meant more it would show up as a cancellation reason. As I say though, the services ARE running. It has staff. TFW have just taken carriages off the NWC and moved them to South Wales or just aren't sending the trains out. You don't need any more staff if the train is coupled to another unit. You may need staffing hours for a very short time off peak to shuffle the trains about to match the evening peak flow but that is it and you can't really be implying that the short amount of time shunting trains to match the evening peak flow but I think at this point, extra carriages at any time of day would be a start.

 

[Bald Rick]

That all depends on how the diagrams work.

Which trains are you suggesting are standing idle?

 

[markymark2000]

That all depends on how the diagrams work.

Which trains are you suggesting are standing idle?

I get that but I still can't see how so quickly after TFW taking over did all the carriages start going missing.

For trains standing idle, it would have to be 175s or 158s which run the bulk of the NWC line. As I say, they are either idle or have been moved elsewhere as there is no other explanation for such a drastic reduction in carriages.

 

[markymark2000]

I think TFW have been very unlucky & don't think are could have done much better as there's been a reduced timetable due covid, plus big shortages of staff due to covid. Add to that the 175 fleet is getting refurbished as they desperately need it, as is the rest of TFWs fleet. The MK4 introduction is delayed & the 230 fleet introduction is delayed. also the 769 introduction has been delayed aswell. I don't think people realise covid is having a huge impact on the country & likewise the rail industry.

I partly agree here. Covid has hit everyone hard but TFW could have certainly done better. Covid aside though, most of these issues happened before Covid and happened back in mid 2018 (Before anyone even knew of Covid). Covid is just being used here as an easy cop out.

 

[Dai Corner]

I partly agree here. Covid has hit everyone hard but TFW could have certainly done better. Covid aside though, most of these issues happened before Covid and happened back in mid 2018 (Before anyone even knew of Covid). Covid is just being used here as an easy cop out.

TfW only took over the franchise in October 2018.

 

[Bald Rick]

For trains standing idle, it would have to be 175s or 158s which run the bulk of the NWC line. As I say, they are either idle or have been moved elsewhere as there is no other explanation for such a drastic reduction in carriages.

Genuinely don’t know, but Perhaps they are covering work for which was supposed to be covered by other units which either haven’t arrived or have no drivers trained.

Don’t underestimate the driver issue. It has been huge for some TOCs, and TfW is one of them.

 

[markymark2000]

TfW only took over the franchise in October 2018.

That is mid 2018 in my books as I wouldn't say it's the end and it definitely isn't the start. End of they ear starts on November.

 

[Dai Corner]

That is mid 2018 in my books as I wouldn't say it's the end and it definitely isn't the start. End of they ear starts on November.

i was dividing the year into equal early, mid and late periods of four months each.

 

[markymark2000]

i was dividing the year into equal early, mid and late periods of four months each.

Late 2018 then. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[craigybagel]

I'm amused by some of the short memories on display here - the final days of Arriva were something of a disaster and most people couldn't wait to see the back of them!

Wobman has already written an excellent reply. All I can think to add is that whilst it may seem like there are extra units on paper, between the loss of the loco hauled stock, the fact that Pacers and 153s aren't running around as single units and the fact that so units needed PRM mods or full refurbishments there really isn't that much extra capacity.

It's too early to judge TFW yet. Even without Covid getting in the way the legacy left by the previous franchise is going to take a long time to fix (and this isn't just a dig at Arriva; a 15 year no growth franchise was always asking for trouble). Add in the delays in obtaining new stock (both the 769s and 230s should long since have been in service by now) and Covid putting huge restrictions on training and maintenance, and they're doing pretty well to keep the current service levels going as it is.

 

[Jamesrob637]

TFW have been running 153s in pairs or attached to something else throughout COVID but as from the Timetable today single ones are booked on the HOWL and Shrewsbury to Crewe locals. They are singles today.

Howl is very appropriate right now!