Is the Alderley Edge stopper really necessary?

[Purple Orange]

Much larger places in Cheshire like Nantwich, Northwich and Knutsford are only on an hourly frequency, if that. So why do these villages need a more regular service interval, particularly as you say when many people have cars and do drive? Increasing the service interval is unlikely to tempt people on to the train if the option to drive is there, particularly in these times and with the cost of rail fares. The stock would be better used increasing capacity on the Atherton and Knutsford lines, or in the case of EMUs, the Glossop line.

Villages? Have you been Bramhall? (Incidentally it gets 1 tph). However just because Knutsford gets a poor service, why should the commuter areas of Manchester get such a poor service too?

PS, encouraging driving is really not a route we want to take. Time and time again, increased frequency has seen an overall increase in patronage, whether it be on metrolink or heavy rail.

 

[py_megapixel]

Villages? Have you been Bramhall?

The confusion may arise from the fact that Bramhall seems to be frequently described as having a "village centre" - however from what I've seen of it (which is not a huge amount) I'd suggest it's probably town-sized.

In any case, Davenport, Woodsmoor, Gorton, Fairfield, Godley, Hattersley, Gatley, Heald Green and Burnage are all examples of Greater Manchester stations on different lines which serve a place smaller or of similar size to Bramhall, and have 2 or even 3 trains per hour.

The service at Bramhall is not fit for purpose.

 

[Purple Orange]

The confusion may arise from the fact that Bramhall seems to be frequently described as having a "village centre" - however from what I've seen of it (which is not a huge amount) I'd suggest it's probably town-sized.

In any case, Davenport, Woodsmoor, Gorton, Fairfield, Godley, Hattersley, Gatley, Heald Green and Burnage are all examples of Greater Manchester stations on different lines which serve a place smaller or of similar size to Bramhall, and have 2 or even 3 trains per hour.

The service at Bramhall is not fit for purpose.

To be fair, until you hit Alderley Edge, there is no area south of Manchester that could be described as a ‘village’. All those stations serve Greater Manchester suburbs, which in a perfect world would all be incorporated in to a metro system.

Thankfully, the stations on the Glossop/Hadfield and Marple lines will be converted to Metrolink , giving them a far better service.

 

[faltskog36abba]

Yes! If only Victoria had circa 12 platforms! Scotland, Leeds, Newcastle, Liverpool, Wales (South and North Wales) services should all be at Victoria (ideally). Really this is a consequence of removing 11 platforms from Victoria. Perhaps in hindsight, 8 through platforms should have been created. Alas, here we are with a perpetual headache and without any paracetamol.

Then two west facing bays need to be built at Victoria-There is space available on the approach into the former platforms 15/16. There is a reverse siding next to platform 3 that holds a 4 car electric unit, There was also talk of a stabling point near Bromley street to the east of the Station layout. Sadly the powers that be and a lot of Rail users want direct access to the airport and Connectivity at Piccadilly.

 

[Purple Orange]

I’m sceptical about the issue of connectivity to the airport and Piccadilly by rail passengers. I think council leaders want that connectivity, but what are rail passengers really wanting to be connected to? I’d argue central Manchester is a far bigger draw.

 

[Starmill]

The OP's argument is muddled. 1tph for Handforth to Manchester but 4 for London to Manchester is precisely the opposite of what would be provided in most places with modern sustainable public transport services.

 

[faltskog36abba]

I’m sceptical about the issue of connectivity to the airport and Piccadilly by rail passengers. I think council leaders want that connectivity, but what are rail passengers really wanting to be connected to? I’d argue central Manchester is a far bigger draw.

Connections for onward journeys that are not available from Victoria is what I meant.

 

[Ianno87]

Connections for onward journeys that are not available from Victoria is what I meant.

The only major one you lose out on is Sheffield/Nottingham direction, given that London/Brum can be accessed from Wigan and Leeds/TPE are served from Victoria.

 

[Starmill]

The only major one you lose out on is Sheffield/Nottingham direction, given that London/Brum can be accessed from Wigan and Leeds/TPE are served from Victoria.

Such journeys can be easily accessed from Southport in one change at Liverpool South Parkway.

So the only real matter that is losing out is Burscough and Parbold to Sheffield and Nottingham. Hm.

 

[Philip]

The OP's argument is muddled. 1tph for Handforth to Manchester but 4 for London to Manchester is precisely the opposite of what would be provided in most places with modern sustainable public transport services.

Railway is much more focused towards inter-urban and intercity services nowadays than on local journeys. Buses, light rail systems and underground are better systems for local public transport. It seems TfGM think like this with the expanding Metrokink network and tram-trains likely to appear on some of the suburban Greater Manchester lines in a few years.

Apart from that, why clog up intercity routes like the Crewe line with stopping services which cater for a market of which the vast majority own cars and aren't likely to be too incovenienced by having to drive the 10-15 miles into work instead?

 

[The Planner]

Railway is much more focused towards inter-urban and intercity services nowadays than on local journeys. Buses, light rail systems and underground are better systems for local public transport. It seems TfGM think like this with the expanding Metrokink network and tram-trains likely to appear on some of the suburban Greater Manchester lines in a few years.

Apart from that, why clog up intercity routes like the Crewe line with stopping services which cater for a market of which the vast majority own cars and aren't likely to be too incovenienced by having to drive the 10-15 miles into work instead?

So you are advocating the increase of cars into city centres and the issues that causes? pretty much the opposite of what most transport policies are? How many people would be using the car as a commute vs the long distant traveler?

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Apart from that, why clog up intercity routes like the Crewe line with stopping services which cater for a market of which the vast majority own cars and aren't likely to be too incovenienced by having to drive the 10-15 miles into work instead?

Are you suggesting that the Crewe-Wilmslow route is too important for stopping services, we've already seen this in recent years South of Stoke-on-Trent with the effective closure of Wedgwood and Barlaston stations.

 

[Philip]

Are you suggesting that the Crewe-Wilmslow route is too important for stopping services, we've already seen this in recent years South of Stoke-on-Trent with the effective closure of Wedgwood and Barlaston stations.

In the case of Chelford and Goostrey, it's a wonder that these stations survive at all. Alderley Edge, Holmes Chapel, Sandbach and Handforth are larger or in the case of the latter an outer suburb of the Manchester connurbation, so they do warrant a rail service...but an hourly service would suffice. Cheadle Hulme would be well served with a half hourly frequency.

Keep the Airport-Crewe service but calling all stations Wilmslow-Crewe, cut the current Crewe stopper back to Alderley Edge and scrap the current Alderley Edge stopper from Castlefield southbound - divert this service from Southport into Victoria. This would at least be a breather for track capacity through Castlefield, Oxford Road, Piccadilly and south to Crewe.

 

[Purple Orange]

In the case of Chelford and Goostrey, it's a wonder that these stations survive at all. Alderley Edge, Holmes Chapel, Sandbach and Handforth are larger or in the case of the latter an outer suburb of the Manchester connurbation, so they do warrant a rail service...but an hourly service would suffice. Cheadle Hulme would be well served with a half hourly frequency.

Keep the Airport-Crewe service but calling all stations Wilmslow-Crewe, cut the current Crewe stopper back to Alderley Edge and scrap the current Alderley Edge stopper from Castlefield southbound - divert this service from Southport into Victoria. This would at least be a breather for track capacity through Castlefield, Oxford Road, Piccadilly and south to Crewe.

This reads like someone who has never been to any of these places, or if you have, you certainly do not know how busy the 2 tph stoppers are on this line. Also the excuse of using cars, because there is a high proportion of car ownership, is the most ridiculous suggestion. It begs a couple of questions:

• Do you believe there is a climate change problem?
• Do you realise that all areas around Manchester has a high level of car ownership?
• Do you know how congested our roads are through south Manchester?

Getting rid of the Alderley Edge stopper is a nonsense. As is a 4th London train too. Head in the clouds indeed pal.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Goostrey looks pointless but for its location it's actually quite well-used.

 

[Philip]

So you are advocating the increase of cars into city centres and the issues that causes? pretty much the opposite of what most transport policies are? How many people would be using the car as a commute vs the long distant traveler?

It is a balance between reducing cars on the road and improving intercity connectivity to help with the economy and boost employment. Many modern cars have much improved emissions standards and obviously electric cars are making a breakthrough.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Oct 2020 ==

This reads like someone who has never been to any of these places, or if you have, you certainly do not know how busy the 2 tph stoppers are on this line. Also the excuse of using cars, because there is a high proportion of car ownership, is the most ridiculous suggestion. It begs a couple of questions:

• Do you believe there is a climate change problem?
• Do you realise that all areas around Manchester has a high level of car ownership?
• Do you know how congested our roads are through south Manchester?

Getting rid of the Alderley Edge stopper is a nonsense. As is a 4th London train too. Head in the clouds indeed pal.

I know the area and the footfall on the line well, thank you. As for congestion, the area has a direct fast dual carriageway into the inner suburbs Manchester (A34) and yes it gets busy but it's hardly the M25.

 

[Purple Orange]

It is a balance between reducing cars on the road and improving intercity connectivity to help with the economy and boost employment. Many modern cars have much improved emissions standards and obviously electric cars are making a breakthrough.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Oct 2020 ==



I know the area and the footfall on the line well, thank you. As for congestion, the area has a direct fast dual carriageway into the inner suburbs Manchester (A34) and yes it gets busy but it's hardly the M25.

Well reducing the service to 1 tph for several stations and 2 tph on others would turn a significant number of people away from the railway altogether. If you don’t recognise the problems that would cause, then there is no debating with you. The M25 is no comparison to a dual carriage way that runs through ten miles of suburbs.

There are a couple of things we do know, Manchester needs to reduce its level of car dependence and taking away a commuter service will increase car usage on a congested area of the city. In fact this argument for a fast service because there is the A34 is the same argument as saying people heading to Crewe can get on the M56 and M6 (which is more comparable to the M25).

Either way, the demand for rail from stations on the line is high and could easily support 3 or even 4 stoppers every hour. In fact we should lose one of the fasts (TfW) and covert that in to a stopper.

 

[Philip]

I would support the idea of having the TfW stop at Cheadle Hulme and maybe Alderley Edge if it meant the stopping shuttle in question was scrapped (south from Castlefield). There is some lag on the Manchester-Shrewsbury bit, so an additional call at at least one, maybe both, wouldn't increase journey times too much.

 

[The Planner]

It is a balance between reducing cars on the road and improving intercity connectivity to help with the economy and boost employment. Many modern cars have much improved emissions standards and obviously electric cars are making a breakthrough.

How do you deal with this increase in traffic into Manchester, where are they parking, do all the workplaces that people that are now driving to have the facilities to deal with this?

Chelford had 39,000 entries and exits in 2018/19, Goostrey 42,000, Alderley Edge 300,000, Holmes Chapel 197,000, Sandbach 277,000, Handforth 296,000, Cheadle Hulme 963,000. That is a total of over 2 milllion and you are suggesting removing calls for an extra long distance path that would carry 500 people at best?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Oct 2020 ==

I would support the idea of having the TfW stop at Alderley Edge and Cheadle Hulme if it meant the stopping shuttle in question was scrapped (south from Castlefield). There is some lag on the Manchester-Shrewsbury bit, so an additional call at at least one, maybe both, wouldn't increase journey times too much.

What lag? there is no spare time in those schedules at all. Adding Alderley Edge and Cheadle Hulme would add on 4 minutes easily and adds time into a long distance path you are saying we need more of?

 

[Philip]

How do you deal with this increase in traffic into Manchester, where are they parking, do all the workplaces that people that are now driving to have the facilities to deal with this?

Chelford had 39,000 entries and exits in 2018/19, Goostrey 42,000, Alderley Edge 300,000, Holmes Chapel 197,000, Sandbach 277,000, Handforth 296,000, Cheadle Hulme 963,000. That is a total of over 2 milllion and you are suggesting removing calls for an extra long distance path that would carry 500 people at best?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Oct 2020 ==


Other than Cheadle Hulme, those figures aren't that impressive and not enough to justify more than an hourly service.

What lag? there is no spare time in those schedules at all. Adding Alderley Edge and Cheadle Hulme would add on 4 minutes easily and adds time into a long distance path you are saying we need more of?

The TfW used to depart Crewe at :12 past the hour and before that at :18 past, it now leaves Crewe at :08, so this could be retimed to :12 to allow for a stop at Cheadle Hulme. Going the other way, the timetabled arrival time into Manchester is approx :15, but they tend to arrive at around :08 past. So yes there is lag.

 

[Efini92]

Clifton isn't "near" Swinton in a local rail sense - these are stations you walk to, not drive to.

The reason Clifton has a Parliamentary service is that it isn't very useful - it's a fair way up a massive hill from the area it serves. But with more housebuilding there is an argument that it's now tending towards needing a useful service again.

Isn’t on an industrial estate?
The last time I stopped there 3 people got off, the most I’ve ever seen there. They did look rather lost though.
It could be served as a park and ride station. There’s a giant car park rotting away next to the station.

 

[The Planner]

The TfW used to depart Crewe at :12 past the hour and before that at :18 past, it now leaves Crewe at :08, so this could be retimed to :12 to allow for a stop at Cheadle Hulme. Going the other way, the timetabled arrival time into Manchester is approx :15, but they tend to arrive at around :08 past. So yes there is lag.

They arrive at Manchester xx.08 as that is the time in the working timetable they are meant to arrive at. There is no way a train is arriving 7 minutes early.
Moving the southbound TfW to depart from Crewe at xx.12 clashes with other trains.

 

[Purple Orange]

The only way the TfW service could be changed is if it was routed in to Victoria via Warrington, rather than to Piccadilly via Stockport. Other, more informed, posters may be able to say whether that would be feasible or not, but journey times are very comparable from Crewe.

I would also seek to move the north wales TfW service to Victoria too, thus we reduce 1 tph on both the Crewe-Stockport-Piccadilly line and on the Castlefield corridor.

Removing a well used stopper from the commuter network is quite frankly ridiculous though.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Oct 2020 ==

How do you deal with this increase in traffic into Manchester, where are they parking, do all the workplaces that people that are now driving to have the facilities to deal with this?

Chelford had 39,000 entries and exits in 2018/19, Goostrey 42,000, Alderley Edge 300,000, Holmes Chapel 197,000, Sandbach 277,000, Handforth 296,000, Cheadle Hulme 963,000. That is a total of over 2 milllion and you are suggesting removing calls for an extra long distance path that would carry 500 people at best?

Those 500 people, who would need to usually be making their journey by car between Manchester and London, for it be worthwhile.

 

[Starmill]

Apart from that, why clog up intercity routes like the Crewe line with stopping services which cater for a market of which the vast majority own cars and aren't likely to be too incovenienced by having to drive the 10-15 miles into work instead?

I don't even know where to begin with this!

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Oct 2020 ==

Alderley Edge, Holmes Chapel, Sandbach and Handforth are larger or in the case of the latter an outer suburb of the Manchester connurbation, so they do warrant a rail service

If an urban commuter station not far from a major centre doesn't have the demand to serve it half-hourly, I would argue that it shouldn't be served at all as rail is not the right mode for it. Of course Wilmslow onwards plainly does have the demand for much more than half-hourly, and in a sensible country it would be on dedicated suburban rail tracks with a tunnel under the city and another route out the other side. As there's not the necessary infrastructure, 2tph is the best that could be done. Why remove it?

 

[The Planner]

Would also like to know what the minimum numbers should be for an hourly service! If its assumed to be more than 50000, that is 580 stations that don't "deserve" one.

 

[Purple Orange]

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/787488/tsgb-2018-report-summaries.pdf

In my opinion, the case for increasing frequency on commuter lines can be crystallised by the statistics in this report from the DfT.

It states that the U.K. produces 467.9 MtCO2e per annum, of which transport is the biggest contributor at 27%, of which passenger car journeys contribute 55% of transport CO2 emissions. Rail accounted for 1.6% of transport CO2 emissions.

 

[jfollows]

The TfW used to depart Crewe at :12 past the hour and before that at :18 past, it now leaves Crewe at :08, so this could be retimed to :12 to allow for a stop at Cheadle Hulme. Going the other way, the timetabled arrival time into Manchester is approx :15, but they tend to arrive at around :08 past. So yes there is lag.

This is just wrong, as others have already pointed out. If there's some logic behind adding stops at Cheadle Hulme, please re-examine the timings.
The TfW service leaves Crewe for Manchester around half past the hour, it's timed to follow the Liverpool via Airport service far enough behind so it doesn't catch up with it (and the hourly freight path which closes up on the Liverpool semi-fast by Wilmslow), and then is immediately followed from Alderley Edge by the stopper which is the topic of discussion for this thread.
The TfW service is badly unreliable, or at least used to be pre-Covid, and needs the 20 minutes in its timetable for the turn-around at Manchester Piccadilly.

EDIT - I think when you said "used to depart Crewe at :12 past the hour" you were referring to the departure from Crewe towards Cardiff, but I incorrectly read you as saying this was the time of the departure in the opposite direction. So, towards Manchester you might be proposing a Cheadle Hulme stop and then eliminating the Alderley Edge starter which currently follows it? I don't personally think there's a problem with the current timetable here and that the Alderley Edge starter makes sense, it's just when it's been extended beyond Manchester that it no longer works.

So, if you're saying just add stops at Cheadle Hulme, I'm not sure why, Cheadle Hulme already has 3 services per hour to/from Manchester. If you're saying replace the stopper with additional calls, then presumably Handforth might lose out but Alderley Edge would warrant a call as well, and the extra calls would eat into the turn-around time in Manchester to an unacceptably large amount I suggest.

 

[Starmill]

Railway is much more focused towards inter-urban and intercity services nowadays than on local journeys. Buses, light rail systems and underground are better systems for local public transport. It seems TfGM think like this with the expanding Metrokink network and tram-trains likely to appear on some of the suburban Greater Manchester lines in a few years.

How do you get from Alderley Edge to Manchester by bus, light rail or Underground please? Also why do you keep mentioning TfGM, as Alderley Edge is in Cheshire East?

 

[Purple Orange]

Ultimately the premise of the thread (if I am not mistaken) is to discuss whether the Alderley Edge stopper to Southport is needed?

The answer that is yes.

However, the OP phrased the issue in the context of the congestion at the Castlefield corridor, which does indeed change the issue about the necessity of an Alderley Edge to Southport stopper. Granted, this topic has been done to death.

If it was me, and I’ve said it here and elsewhere, but I would certainly seek to split the service and terminate the Alderley Edge service at Piccadilly (just like it did when it was a reliable service).

Some people cite that it is operationally convenient to dovetail that Southport, Stalybridge and Alderley Edge services, but given they are riddled with delays, how operationally convenient are they really? They are certainly not convenient for passengers.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 5 Oct 2020 ==

How do you get from Alderley Edge to Manchester by bus, light rail or Underground please? Also why do you keep mentioning TfGM, as Alderley Edge is in Cheshire East?

There are plans for metrolink tram-trains between Wilmslow and the Airport, which suggests in a post HS2 world, where long distance services are banished from (or significantly reduced) from the Styal Line, we could conceivably see a metro link service from Wilmslow all the way to Manchester, with underground (or on-street tram) from Ladybarn via the University to central Manchester. But that is crayonista territory.

 

[jfollows]

How do you get from Alderley Edge to Manchester by bus, light rail or Underground please? Also why do you keep mentioning TfGM, as Alderley Edge is in Cheshire East?

There is a long-running thread in another section on the forum covering the 130 bus service, which is terrible and is constantly being chopped and changed. Only today another new variant of the service has been introduced, which is essentially a Macclesfield-Handforth service (the experiment of going to Wythenshawe has been dropped). So, despite the fact that a few years ago it was half-hourly and ran all the way to Manchester from Alderley Edge, no more. But, despite all our observations and complaints, at least the railway sets up a service and sticks with it, the May 2018 stopper has been improved by good effort on the ground despite the bad timetable.

A metrolink-style service from Wilmslow would replace the 130 bus in part, albeit over a different route. I once used the Metrolink service from Manchester Airport to Manchester, and I won't do so again, it takes too long. The rail stopping service from Alderley Edge provides a good and frequent and fast service; I'm lucky living in Wilmslow that I also have faster services but I'm not infrequently on the stopper as well.