Advantages and timetabling of request stops

[biko]

The first time I used a train in the UK I was surprised by the concept of request stops. I never encountered this before on the continent (at least in the countries/regions where I have been), and I thought this was something typical for buses.

For buses, the reason stops are on request only because the passenger number at each individual stop is quite low and it would be nonsense to stop at 20 stops of which only one is used. The timetable is built around the expected time needed and if many stops are requested the bus will be delayed slightly. However for trains delays are less acceptable just because the train needs to pick up passengers. So therefore I wondered how this is taken into account in the timetable. Do they plan on the most likely number of stops needed or do they plan on the possibility all stations are requested? In the latter case, if nobody requests a stop is the time saved recovery time?

All in all, I wonder what the advantages are of making a stop request only. It should save a few seconds, maybe a minute but it is uncertain if it happens, so what is the advantage in practice? I would think it is much easier to skip a stop. Then the saving is bigger and certain

 

[bramling]

The first time I used a train in the UK I was surprised by the concept of request stops. I never encountered this before on the continent (at least in the countries/regions where I have been), and I thought this was something typical for buses.

For buses, the reason stops are on request only because the passenger number at each individual stop is quite low and it would be nonsense to stop at 20 stops of which only one is used. The timetable is built around the expected time needed and if many stops are requested the bus will be delayed slightly. However for trains delays are less acceptable just because the train needs to pick up passengers. So therefore I wondered how this is taken into account in the timetable. Do they plan on the most likely number of stops needed or do they plan on the possibility all stations are requested? In the latter case, if nobody requests a stop is the time saved recovery time?

All in all, I wonder what the advantages are of making a stop request only. It should save a few seconds, maybe a minute but it is uncertain if it happens, so what is the advantage in practice? I would think it is much easier to skip a stop. Then the saving is bigger and certain

The main benefit is in making up time if running late - however in practice fate says that this will be the one time there will be someone wanting every stop!

 

[Eloise]

We did do a "dot stop", system shows train comes to stand and immediately starts off again with zero minute dwell. That way you incorporate the braking and acceleration allowances. In some areas request stop are pretty non-existent now, have to say years since I put one in or tinkered with one.

 

[The Planner]

Still plenty on the Cumbrian coast. You normally stick some performance time in approaching the next open stop to cover it and arrive early if you don't stop.

 

[HamworthyGoods]

Switzerland has a large number of request stops

 

[peteb]

Giving a train a time at a request stop does reduce the possibility of it running early and thus missing passengers, some of whom might be marooned otherwise! Some of these stops are in the middle of nowhere but are a godsend for walkers and bird watchers.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

You have to plan very carefully to allow for both scenarios - train stops at no request stops, or train stops at all of them. Overall the train has to have enough time to call everywhere therefore dot stops are frowned upon nowadays (and NR’s system can’t cope with zero dwell incidentally.) If there is a string of request stops then you have to allow for the fact that the train might end up running early, and adjust the public advertising to allow for that. Also its a good idea to advertise request stops slightly earlier than working time anyway as customers must be ready in advance of the trains arrival.

So for example a chain of 5 request stops, all with 30s dwells. I would advertise the first couple 1-min earlier than working, the second two 2-mins earlier than working, and the final one three mins earlier than working. If the sixth stop is a mandatory (open) stop then the train will normally wait there for booked time, so it resets the advertising again.

I imagine there are other techniques as well, but this is the one Im familiar with.

Edit - just to add, to answer the original question fully - yes it’s related to passenger numbers, and aims to harvest a performance benefit. Often it isn’t possible to actually skip stops entirely if they’re specified in the train service specification set by DfT.

 

[Parallel]

I’ve used a train on the Cambrian Coast before that stopped at every request stop between Penhelig and Llandecwyn. We arrived into Penrhyndeudraeth about 4 minutes late, I don’t think the timetable factored in stopping at every request stop timings wise. Most trains do have dwell time at the passing loops like Tywyn, Barmouth and Harlech but there are a couple of trains that don’t have much of one.

I’ve spoken to one of the friendly conductors on this line previously and he said that if he begins running early due to not stopping, he’ll arrange to stop at one of the request stops (Even if no one wants to board or alight) to avoid running too early.

 

[peteb]

I’ve used a train the Cambrian Coast before that stopped at every request stop between Penhelig and Llandecwyn. We arrived into Penrhyndeudraeth about 4 minutes late, I don’t think the timetable factored in stopping at every request stop timings wise. Most trains do have dwell time at the passing loops like Tywyn, Barmouth and Harlech but there are a couple of trains that don’t have much of one.

I’ve spoken to one of the friendly conductors on this line previously and he said that if he begins running early due to not stopping, he’ll arrange to stop at one of the request stops (Even if no one wants to board or alight) to avoid running too early.

That is reassuring for those of us who like to use the request stops! Mind you I've always found the Cambrian staff to be very friendly and considerate, even at the height of the summer.

 

[Trackman]

It saves on fuel costs and wear and tear too.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

As I said there are different techniques! And each line has its own suitable method of planning and working. The Cambrian is probably one of the more extreme examples although the Heart of Wales is the ultimate example I can think of.

 

[biko]

Thanks for all reactions! Interesting to see how it works.

If there is a string of request stops then you have to allow for the fact that the train might end up running early, and adjust the public advertising to allow for that. Also its a good idea to advertise request stops slightly earlier than working time anyway as customers must be ready in advance of the trains arrival.

That’s one of the things I wondered. Buses do have the habit of arriving and departing before the advertised time and passengers know that, but with trains one doesn’t expect an early departure.

If the sixth stop is a mandatory (open) stop then the train will normally wait there for booked time, so it resets the advertising again

I assume this means there will be a slight delay if all stops are requested, otherwise it doesn’t make sense to only stop on request. But the assumption is then that it doesn’t often happen that all stops are requested. Is that correct?

I’ve spoken to one of the friendly conductors on this line previously and he said that if he begins running early due to not stopping, he’ll arrange to stop at one of the request stops (Even if no one wants to board or alight) to avoid running too early.

That sounds like what buses do over here. They just stop at certain stops if the bus is more than 1 minute early if I remember correctly. It does seem quite ‘dangerous’ to let it depend on the conductor, some might forget.

It saves on fuel costs and wear and tear too.

Does it really save much? I thought the trains still brake to be able to stop in time if there is somebody waving at the platform. So only the last part of the braking curve is then saved.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I assume this means there will be a slight delay if all stops are requested, otherwise it doesn’t make sense to only stop on request. But the assumption is then that it doesn’t often happen that all stops are requested. Is that correct?

If the method I described is used, the train should never run late as sufficient time is allowed at each stop for the train to physically stop, but the gradually increasing differential between working and public times allows it to naturally run a bit early if not all stops are made.

If the method The Planner outlined is used, the train gradually runs a bit late every time a request stop is actually stopped at, but there is always sufficient recovery time before the next mandatory stop to contain the late running locally.

 

[markymark2000]

Could it be argued as well that request stops reduce unnecessary noise pollution and reduce harmful gasses in the air?
Noise pollution would be reduced with the train passing through at 20 rather than squealing to a stop, idling and then accelerating (which on sprinters can be quite loud). Passing through shouldn't sound as loud.
Harmful gasses would be reduced possibly in a pollution conscious area since the time difference between stopping and not stopping will be about a minute, maybe 90 seconds. Also no idling at stations nor heavy acceleration to depart from the station.

 

[Trackman]

Does it really save much? I thought the trains still brake to be able to stop in time if there is somebody waving at the platform. So only the last part of the braking curve is then saved.

I would say fuel wise more than anything.

 

[D6975]

Are request stops generally on the decline? I ask because down my way we lost a couple a few years ago, Freshford and Avoncliffe both became normal stops.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

Are request stops generally on the decline? I ask because down my way we lost a couple a few years ago, Freshford and Avoncliffe both became normal stops.

In my experience they are as, Covid notwithstanding, passenger numbers were on the up. Although Avoncliff is an interesting example, as it became an open stop due to the frequency with which the guard couldn’t make it through the train between Bradford and Avoncliff and the trains ended up stopping by default as a precaution. Freshford was changed a few years earlier on the basis of growing passenger numbers and local campaigning.

 

[Parallel]

In my experience they are as, Covid notwithstanding, passenger numbers were on the up. Although Avoncliff is an interesting example, as it became an open stop due to the frequency with which the guard couldn’t make it through the train between Bradford and Avoncliff and the trains ended up stopping by default as a precaution. Freshford was changed a few years earlier on the basis of growing passenger numbers and local campaigning.

I thought Avoncliff was changed because of the signal at the end of the Bath bound platform. If the guard buzzed 2, this could distract the driver into passing the signal at danger. That’s what’s been reported on this forum before, not sure if it actually happened before.

Avoncliff is one door only so if no passengers are at the front door then it was always fairly safe to assume nobody wanted to alight, subject to the relevant announcement being made. This seems to be how most guards manage Dilton Marsh, southbound at least.

 

[Wilts Wanderer]

I thought Avoncliff was changed because of the signal at the end of the Bath bound platform. If the guard buzzed 2, this could distract the driver into passing the signal at danger. That’s what’s been reported on this forum before, not sure if it actually happened before.

I can’t say Ive ever heard that, there are plenty of other locations where request stops have signals and they’re not considered a SPAD risk, the first that springs to mind is Ferryside in S Wales. I do know for a fact that the deciding factor with Avoncliff was the short distance from adjacent stops.

 

[thenorthern]

The main saving is fuel because starting a train from stationary uses a lot of diesel.

 

[HST43257]

If anything, I’d like to see more request stops on railway lines. However, I’d want to use a bus-like system where there are stop buttons on board the trains and also at stations as well. I’ve seen this abroad in the Switzerland/Germany border area I think and it seemed to work well. People may not like me for saying this, but perhaps it could be a factor in getting rid of guards on some trains, especially if they could use in-cab dispatch like on Thameslink.

(Apologies for putting on a non speculative thread)

 

[leytongabriel]

I'd really like to suggest request stops to Normandy region as an alternative to bus and taxi substituion and station closure. School children from villages going to school in town for the week on Monday morning and back on Friday eve for example used halts which are now closed in all but name. Anybody got any evidence as to how they work to the advantage of the rail operator and/or the community served?

 

[Taunton]

In the USA, in Philadelphia, the "Norristown High-Speed" 3rd rail electric line has a mixed combination of light railway and full scale high platform operation, but also has a string of dilapadated request stops in the forest, often passed at quite some speed or requiring heavy braking. If the passenger shows their face out of the platform shelter late, overruns seem not uncommon, but they just back up ...! The driver has a PA microphone to announce the next stops, on one occasion a very USA blue-collar expletive came over it when they didn't quite manage to pull up in time.

 

[geoffk]

Not all request stops are in remote rural areas, e.g. Burnley Barracks, Conwy and Deganwy. If you wish to alight at a request stop, you're supposed to tell the guard in good time but I imagine this is more difficult since the arrival of Covid as guards are less "visible".

 

[SuspectUsual]

Not all request stops are in remote rural areas, e.g. Burnley Barracks, Conwy and Deganwy. If you wish to alight at a request stop, you're supposed to tell the guard in good time but I imagine this is more difficult since the arrival of Covid as guards are less "visible".

Presumably there’s also a risk of a request being “forgotten” is there’s a crew change en route and the info isn’t passed on.

 

[Gloster]

In Sweden there are a lot of halts on the remaining branch lines. A standard fitting is a lollipop (my term), a bit like the old manual Stop/Go boards at roadworks, fitted in a frame work. It normally lies parallel to the line: if you want to join the train you turn it to face the train, turning it back once the train has stopped. Admittedly, there aren’t so many yoof who would rejoice in delaying the train over there, although there are some.

In Denmark and, if I remember correctly, some parts of Sweden trains have bell pushes and ‘Train stopping’ indicators exactly buses.

 

[Llandudno]

Not all request stops are in remote rural areas, e.g. Burnley Barracks, Conwy and Deganwy. If you wish to alight at a request stop, you're supposed to tell the guard in good time but I imagine this is more difficult since the arrival of Covid as guards are less "visible".

It always seems daft to me that Conwy is a request stop, owing to the poor frequency, two hourly for the most part it is very rare (in non Covid times) that there isn’t a passenger boarding or alighting. Also the short running time from Llandudno Junction to Conwy can make it difficult to locate the guard. The station is also popular with foreign (not just English!) tourists in the summer and request stops can be confusing.

Deganwy, of course, has a more frequent service, so there are some occasions when there may not be anyone boarding or alighting, but the trains travel relatively slowly because of a tightish curve and two level crossings in close proximity. There is surprisingly quite a bit of patronage between Deganwy and Llandudno itself, presumably because the return train fare is less than half what Arriva charge for their fairly unreliable bus service!
Again short travelling time from Llandudno Junction so a bit of a hassle to locate the guard especially if changing trains.

Just another thought, there are crew changeovers at certain times at Llandudno Junction, so a passenger may inform the guard when the train leaves, say Manchester that they wish to alight at Deganwy, but would the guard remember to let his colleague know if the there was a change of crew at either Chester or Llandudno Junction?

 

[markymark2000]

Not all request stops are in remote rural areas, e.g. Burnley Barracks, Conwy and Deganwy. If you wish to alight at a request stop, you're supposed to tell the guard in good time but I imagine this is more difficult since the arrival of Covid as guards are less "visible".

I know when I was on the Cumbrian Coast, the guard would come out of the cab and just watch up the train to see if anyone was moving and intending to leave and if there was no sign of intent, they would buzz through. No interaction with passengers and more monitoring. I imagine this is how some stops are being dealt with now. People watching and no contact.

 

[dk1]

Not all request stops are in remote rural areas, e.g. Burnley Barracks, Conwy and Deganwy. If you wish to alight at a request stop, you're supposed to tell the guard in good time but I imagine this is more difficult since the arrival of Covid as guards are less "visible".

In my area all request stops have temporarily become booked stops as the conductor is not passing through the train.

 

[edwin_m]

Avoncliff is one door only so if no passengers are at the front door then it was always fairly safe to assume nobody wanted to alight, subject to the relevant announcement being made. This seems to be how most guards manage Dilton Marsh, southbound at least.

This method of operation is incompatible with accessibility requirements. Not an issue at Avoncliff as anyone who can get up and down the steep steps to the platforms will be capable of getting to the front of the train, but at other places it must be necessary to stop the accessible door at the platform. A related issue is that if the guard doesn't manage to get through the train, people who can't move within the train won't be able to request a stop.