Coffee & Vending Machine on Mid Distance Regional Trains?

[hkstudent]

As many trains are abandoning trolley services (e.g. Southeastern High Speed, Southeastern Regional, London Northwestern, Transpennine Express, etc.), would it be possible for new trains to install these machines as a replacement to the services?

I think this may just occupy the same space as trolley but won't be blocking the alleyway. Also, it could be a potential staff saving.

 

[221129]

Southeastern High Speed, Southeastern Regional, London Northwestern

Have these ever had catering in recent years?

Transpennine Express

Which still has onboard catering and has recently upgraded the offer.

I think this may just occupy the same space as trolley

So offers no real space advantage, as a trolley is mobile so can be moved if in the way.

Also, it could be a potential staff saving

But you'll still need staff to stock and maintain the machines.

 

[py_megapixel]

I guess this would probably be better in Speculative? I'll ask for it to be moved.

As for the actual idea - I guess it could happen, but honestly vending machines at stations are so poor anyway most of the time that I'm not sure replacing the on-train catering with the same thing would be an improvement in any way... I guess they could install better machines with a better range of products on the trains however

 

[Philip Phlopp]

They're brave, letting Stadler have anything to do with scalding hot water.

Where does it spray it over you - crotch or eyes - when it malfunctions ?

 

[theironroad]

As many trains are abandoning trolley services (e.g. Southeastern High Speed, Southeastern Regional, London Northwestern, Transpennine Express, etc.), would it be possible for new trains to install these machines as a replacement to the services?

I think this may just occupy the same space as trolley but won't be blocking the alleyway. Also, it could be a potential staff saving.

Not sure I'd say there is any 'food' selection, just snacks.

However, a third refrigerated vending machine could be added that can offer sandwiches and even easy to microwave products (obvs needs a microwave installed) .

Could be self service but with a member of staff overseeing it as part of other on train duties. Needs to be sensibly priced , no extortion captive pricing.

Long distance services could still retain a better offering with a kitchen if necessary and staffed.

 

[hkstudent]

Have these ever had catering in recent years?

Which still has onboard catering and has recently upgraded the offer.

So offers no real space advantage, as a trolley is mobile so can be moved if in the way.

But you'll still need staff to stock and maintain the machines.

1. Not in this decade sadly. But would be good for such a distance (1hr - 2hr journeys)
2. For TPE, given that train can be quite full during weekends, trolleys may not be best, especially need to push through passengers.
3. You still need space to store the trolley, which the machines may still occupy similar stationary space
4. For re-stocking, you just need staff to do that at stations, by station staff, not requiring them to travel on the train the whole day.

Not sure I'd say there is any 'food' selection, just snacks.

However, a third refrigerated vending machine could be added that can offer sandwiches and even easy to microwave products (obvs needs a microwave installed) .

Could be self service but with a member of staff overseeing it as part of other on train duties. Needs to be sensibly priced , no extortion captive pricing.

Long distance services could still retain a better offering with a kitchen if necessary and staffed.

Refrigerated food would be quite risky as you don't know how the demand fluctuates and may exceed the rather short shelf life (e.g. 3-5 days).
Though I would also welcome this, as really want some hot food on some mid-distance trains, especially on LNR services.

I guess this would probably be better in Speculative? I'll ask for it to be moved.

As for the actual idea - I guess it could happen, but honestly vending machines at stations are so poor anyway most of the time that I'm not sure replacing the on-train catering with the same thing would be an improvement in any way... I guess they could install better machines with a better range of products on the trains however

Still, an improvement, as you get much better coffee than the instant coffee that you can get from a trolley.
Also, staff may not always be available to sell snacks & drinks, while a machine is available always.
(Machines on Japanese trains, especially on those Limited Express / Shinkansen, with more variety of snacks and chilled & heated bottled drinks available)

 

[Tio Terry]

Many years ago, in BR days, I got involved in a project to see if vending machines could be used on trains. Those involving the use of liquids - especially hot liquids - were not considered suitable because they couldn't be relied upon to keep hot liquid within a container and not slosh it about as the train moved around at speed, the attendant dangers being obvious. Others had movement sensors designed to counter people trying to get the machine to do what it shouldn't and dispense goods without payment, but when encountering a bit of rough track they automatically shut down. Generally, vending machines are designed for, and like, a stable no movement environment which is not what you get on a train.

I guess technology marches on and things may be a bit different now, but I doubt it. If you want a vending machine that will deal with the varying movements of a train at speed you have a lot of design work to do.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Many years ago, in BR days, I got involved in a project to see if vending machines could be used on trains. Those involving the use of liquids - especially hot liquids - were not considered suitable because they couldn't be relied upon to keep hot liquid within a container and not slosh it about as the train moved around at speed, the attendant dangers being obvious. Others had movement sensors designed to counter people trying to get the machine to do what it shouldn't and dispense goods without payment, but when encountering a bit of rough track they automatically shut down. Generally, vending machines are designed for, and like, a stable no movement environment which is not what you get on a train.

I guess technology marches on and things may be a bit different now, but I doubt it. If you want a vending machine that will deal with the varying movements of a train at speed you have a lot of design work to do.

I remember something similar (maybe it was your project) being trialled on the BREL International Train with the involvement of, as I recall, Maxpax (or was it Klix ?)

 

[Tio Terry]

I remember something similar (maybe it was your project) being trialled on the BREL International Train with the involvement of, as I recall, Maxpax (or was it Klix ?)

It was MaxPax. We had loads of them in their long cartons. All the different soups tasted the same!

 

[hkstudent]

It was MaxPax. We had loads of them in their long cartons. All the different soups tasted the same!

Oh dear. The German / Polish version would be quite different. They tasted quite differently.

I am thinking, if hot liquid is not a choice, would vending machine for bottled drinks (both chilled and heated) and snacks can be installed. that would minimise the risk of liquid spill.

 

[Energy]

Nice idea, could work well for ones like Chiltern which currently do not have any catering services, staff still have to fill up the vending machine occasionally but staff can easily do it at the end or before a service.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am thinking, if hot liquid is not a choice, would vending machine for bottled drinks (both chilled and heated) and snacks can be installed. that would minimise the risk of liquid spill.

In the UK if you don't do tea and coffee it's barely worth bothering. Those are the main things sold on trains, as packaged items are easier to carry on.

 

[py_megapixel]

I am thinking, if hot liquid is not a choice, would vending machine for bottled drinks (both chilled and heated) and snacks can be installed. that would minimise the risk of liquid spill.

In the UK if you don't do tea and coffee it's barely worth bothering. Those are the main things sold on trains, as packaged items are easier to carry on.

I wonder if they could use some style of Flavia type system where the drinks are taken on in single-serve pouches which are put into a machine by the user at the time of brewing. Then you could have a fairly simple non-heated vending machine to sell the pouches.

 

[AngusH]

Perhaps a design that prepares the hot drink behind a door and perhaps even delivers it in a paper bag (or box?)

I also have seen pictures of a vending machine system that sells and then allows heating of hot snacks via a self service oven. So anything could be possible...

 

[theironroad]

Perhaps a design that prepares the hot drink behind a door and perhaps even delivers it in a paper bag (or box?)

I also have seen pictures of a vending machine system that sells and then allows heating of hot snacks via a self service oven. So anything could be possible...

There are already vending machines that have a cover door that won't open until the vend process is complete to prevent people scolding themselves. Rather than a box, maybe a device that fits a lid before allowing user to take it but not sure if the train movement would prevent a device needing a degree of accuracy.

 

[py_megapixel]

There are already vending machines that have a cover door that won't open until the vend process is complete to prevent people scolding themselves. Rather than a box, maybe a device that fits a lid before allowing user to take it but not sure if the train movement would prevent a device needing a degree of accuracy.

I wonder if a mechanism could be designed to allow the cups to be filled with powder and then pre-fitted with lids with some kind of means for the machine to dispense through the lid. Like a filter coffee machine that will only dispense into a carafe, but a disposable version. However I imagine that would be so complicated and expensive that it would never be used. It would also be rather space-inefficient as the cups couldn't be stacked in storage!

 

[Mojo]

Have these ever had catering in recent years?

1. Not in this decade sadly. But would be good for such a distance (1hr - 2hr journeys)

London Midland railway had catering on the northern section of its long distance routes until August 2011.

London Midland withdraw on-board catering from 27th August

http://www.londonmidland.com/news/latest-news/withdrawal-of-on-train-catering-from-27-august-2011/. London Midland are going to withdraw on-board catering from all of their trains from the 27th August. This also affects First Class passengers, who a few months ago could purchase items off the...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[markymark2000]

I really like the idea and I think for Southeastern HighSpeed and the GWR IETs, it could work.

For Trans Pennine and Cross Country, I can see this working as a First Class only offering. Scan your rail ticket and each rail ticket entitles you to free drinks (either set a standard number of free drinks or give so many depending on the distance). Some limit would be necessary as otherwise you could start a black market of First Class passengers selling drinks to standard class and that isn't good. This eliminates the need for the first class hosts so could save money and does allow for the passengers to get drinks as and when they want, not as and when the First Class Host is doing drinks making it a bit more flexible for them.
In Standard Class, you would find it difficult to do because on TPE and Cross Country, they do have very busy peak times with sometimes overcrowding. You can't risk people walking about with hot drinks and if you were to go and get a drink, you would have an issue with people losing seats and it just wouldn't be worth the hassle it would cause. There is also the argument that you don't want to take up space which could be otherwise used for seats or standing room. The trolleys at peak times, I often see are quite quiet and tend to stick in one place anyway.

LNER/Avanti could work similarly as a First Class only offering for hot drinks. Rids the need for staff to do drinks and instead they can focus on the cooked food, information or other onboard roles. Standard class vending machines would be fine on these services but shouldn't be looked into yet since it would be quite a service downgrade. That said, it would help the shops be available for longer as the shops tend to close (what feels like) quite often for stock takes or staff shortages.

LNWR and SouthEastern regional I think you would struggle since these are commuter trains, and while some people do travel longer distance, fundamentally, these are commuter services so it's the primary market but the amount of passengers and stops means going to get a drink would risk you losing your seat and it would take up a fair bit of space. Desiros and Electrostars I would instantly say no because there isn't really the space and for space to be made, you would have to take out seats or standing space which I can't see being liked by peak commuters who can already struggle to get onto their trains (pre covid of course).

 

[Howardh]

To get over the lid issue, at Spurs football they have a system where the pint plastic glass is filled...from the bottom! It's to allow faster pouring, but could a system like that appear on a train where the pax puts a cup with a lid (and a couple of small holes to let air out) over a pump and the hot liquid enters the cup from underneath, and is sealed on removal using a magnet?

The advantage being hot liquid can only enter when the cup is placed accurately and would be difficult to scald the pax as there's nothing coming from above to put your hand under. The only issue would be the lid, making sure it doesn't pop off as the liquid enters.

Sounds fantastical, but I bet that system's being looked into somewhere!