SWR/Southern Season Ticket enquiry

[Lifelong]

Good evening

Because of C-19 I’ve ditched my travel card for a season ticket (Horsley to Clapham Junction). I know this is valid via Surbiton and Leatherhead - is this also valid by changing at Epsom and taking Southern to CJ? If so, I think the Southern trains take a couple of different routes, is the ticket valid by both (and therefore to intermediate stations on the routes a la on the SWR routes). Many thanks

 

[MikeWh]

I'm not a routeing guide guru, but the appropriate routeing point for Horsley is Effingham Junction, and Clapham Junction is a routeing point itself. Valid routes are mapped as follows:

DK: Leatherhead - Epsom - Raynes Park - Wimbledon - Clapham Junction
EF: Surbiton - New Malden - Raynes Park - Wimbledon - Clapham Junction
HR: Leatherhead - Epsom - Sutton - Mitcham Junction - (optionally Streatham Group) - Balham - Clapham Junction

 

[30907]

So the Southern route available is the direct one through Mitcham Jn, but not the possible one via West Croydon.

 

[Lifelong]

So the Southern route available is the direct one through Mitcham Jn, but not the possible one via West Croydon.

Thanks to you both - I actually think I'd mistaken different stopping patterns on Southern for different routes, and it was the Mitcham Jn one I was in reality interested in, so this is all good...

 

[MikeWh]

So the Southern route available is the direct one through Mitcham Jn, but not the possible one via West Croydon.

Not that unreasonable IMO. You're adding another chunk of extra mileage over the shortest and more logical routes.

 

[30907]

Not that unreasonable IMO. You're adding another chunk of extra mileage over the shortest and more logical routes.

I agree - I was remembering when there was a through Guildford-Croydon! I presume Horsley to London Terminals would be valid, but as the OP has an answer that satisfies them we needn't pursue that.

 

[Nottingham59]

Out of curiosity reading this thread, I've just used the NR season ticket calculator at https://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/seasonticket/search

This gives six different destinations including for instance HSY to Travelcard Zones 2-6. But results 1 and 4 give two different season tickets from HSY to CLJ:





My question is why the "Any Permitted" routing should be cheaper than the route labelled "Not via London Terminals"?

(I would have posted this in a separate thread, but I am posting it here because the OP has not said which of these HSY-CLJ season tickets they hold, and it may be relevant to their enquiry.)

 

[island]

Looks like a bit of anomaly. The NOT VIA LONDON ticket is from Q399 Clandon and Horsley to Q012 Battersea Park, Wandsworth Town, Queenstown Road Battersea and Clapham Junction. The ANY PERMITTED ticket is Horsley to Clapham Junction only. All of the daily tickets are the same price, only the season is different.

The other members of the cluster do not have the ANY PERMITTED route available.

Mind you, I don’t think via London is a permitted route for Horsley to Clapham Junction anyway, as you’d be doubling-back between Clapham Junction and Waterloo. Edit: in fact it is, on map HR, going Effingham Junction-Mitcham Junction-Streatham-Herne Hill-London-Clapham Junction, though I don’t fancy my chances of that ticket working the gates at Victoria or Waterloo nor being let through manually without quite an argument, as on the face of it it’s clearly overtravelling.

 

[Lifelong]

Thanks for these replies..a first question - I live equidistant (well not quite) between Horsley and Effingham Junction - would things change if I got a ticket from the latter, as I’d be happy to walk a bit further if that gave more options.

And then to the options - I have the cheaper ticket - would someone be able to advise on the detail of routes we think any permitted’ allows please? What I’m reading here seems to open up opportunities for me...cheers

 

[island]

Thanks for these replies..a first question - I live equidistant (well not quite) between Horsley and Effingham Junction - would things change if I got a ticket from the latter, as I’d be happy to walk a bit further if that gave more options.

And then to the options - I have the cheaper ticket - would someone be able to advise on the detail of routes we think any permitted’ allows please? What I’m reading here seems to open up opportunities for me...cheers

The routes from Horsley and Effingham Junction are the same and were enumerated in the very first reply you got.

 

[Lifelong]

The routes from Horsley and Effingham Junction are the same and were enumerated in the very first reply you got.

I thought they were as well, however now we seem to have different options in the mix - for example the comment around the Herne Hill, London route...thanks

 

[Nottingham59]

I'm no expert, but be very careful before trying to go via Herne Hill. That suggestions come from the ATOC routing guide maps (see map HR here: http://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps). The routing mentioned above via Herne Hill only works also via both Elephant and Castle and London to Clapham Junction. And there may well be what they call a "negative easement" which disallows that specific circuitous route. I can't find one such, but I can't get the NR journey planner to generate that routing either.

 

[Haywain]

The routes from Horsley and Effingham Junction are the same and were enumerated in the very first reply you got.

But it was you that mentioned Herne Hill.

 

[Lifelong]

Er...it wasn’t. It was contributor Island who noted the Via London (or not) scenario on Saturday night, incl HH, after Nottingham59s mention of different season tickets - which I’d not thought of at all. Thanks

 

[island]

I'm no expert, but be very careful before trying to go via Herne Hill. That suggestions come from the ATOC routing guide maps (see map HR here: http://data.atoc.org/routeing-maps). The routing mentioned above via Herne Hill only works also via both Elephant and Castle and London to Clapham Junction. And there may well be what they call a "negative easement" which disallows that specific circuitous route. I can't find one such, but I can't get the NR journey planner to generate that routing either.

I suspect the NR journey planner won’t generate the route because it requires a transfer between two London terminals and the ticket does not have the cross-London marker so won’t be valid on the Tube.

As I said, I would not recommend relying on that apparent validity.

 

[Lifelong]

I suspect the NR journey planner won’t generate the route because it requires a transfer between two London terminals and the ticket does not have the cross-London marker so won’t be valid on the Tube.

As I said, I would not recommend relying on that apparent validity.

Thank you. I understand and I won't...

 

[Haywain]

Er...it wasn’t.

I know it wasn't you, that's why I was replying to, and quoting, island.

 

[infobleep]

I suspect the NR journey planner won’t generate the route because it requires a transfer between two London terminals and the ticket does not have the cross-London marker so won’t be valid on the Tube.

As I said, I would not recommend relying on that apparent validity.

Surely walking between London terminals is valid. I have walked between London terminals myself before now and not just at night when the tube isn't running.

 

[island]

I didn’t say it wasn’t valid, I said that the website wouldn’t generate an itinerary because of the lack of cross-London marker, and I would not want to use the ticket because it looks very obviously invalid and will attract argument with gateline and revenue staff.

 

[infobleep]

I didn’t say it wasn’t valid, I said that the website wouldn’t generate an itinerary because of the lack of cross-London marker, and I would not want to use the ticket because it looks very obviously invalid and will attract argument with gateline and revenue staff.

Very true you didn't. But I wanted to highlight it is valid regardless of that.

 

[BluePenguin]

I suspect the NR journey planner won’t generate the route because it requires a transfer between two London terminals and the ticket does not have the cross-London marker so won’t be valid on the Tube.

As I said, I would not recommend relying on that apparent validity.

But you don’t need to go on the tube. Many tickets are valid to Vauxhall through London Bridge and Waterloo East for instance. Travelling through multiple terminals is allowed.

You can easily get between all of the Southern London terminals by changing at Clapham Junction or scooting across through Lewisham, Denmark Hill or Herne Hill. The same is also possible in this case

I have never seen a season ticket with a cross London marker on anyway. The + on a ticket only applies when an underground journey is sandwiched between 2 NR legs. It isn’t included for the sake of it in case you want to go to a different London terminal

 

[island]

I fear we’re disappearing down rabbit holes as we are sometimes wont to do in this forum.

The bald summary is – whilst the ticket is (it seems) valid to Victoria or Waterloo, there is no chance it will work the gatelines and no chance of being let through by the gateline attendants. So unless the OP wishes to try to argue the toss twice a day, risk getting penalty fared daily, etc., there really is no point trying to use it this way.

 

[infobleep]

I fear we’re disappearing down rabbit holes as we are sometimes wont to do in this forum.

The bald summary is – whilst the ticket is (it seems) valid to Victoria or Waterloo, there is no chance it will work the gatelines and no chance of being let through by the gateline attendants. So unless the OP wishes to try to argue the toss twice a day, risk getting penalty fared daily, etc., there really is no point trying to use it this way.

It is my theory that with season tickets a lot of staff check it is in date as that is prominent but don't check the stations so closely.

This would be less so with day tickets as rhe stations are more prominent.

The only way to find out thought would be to try it.