Oyster Card disadvantage

[RJ]

Found one potential pitfall by accident. It was around midnight at Ealing Broadway. The 00:06 service to Paddington was showing expected at 00:10. I logged into LDB and saw that the train was running 5 late from Hayes, so I touched in. Unfortunately, somebody got hit by that train at Southall so it never arrived. As a result, the following train one hour later was also cancelled so it was inevitable that the card would not be touched out.

Now it was after midnight. The last tubes to Central London had gone, there were no staff manning the ticket office and the station staff claimed there was nothing they could do. Unfortunately as I only had ~£2 on the card, it went into arrears due to the £4.30 Entry charge being deducted. This meant that I couldn't use it on the buses or anything. Not a pleasant situation to be in when you need to catch three buses to get home. It's a Zip Card which gives free bus travel, provided it is in credit.

In the past I've topped up £5 (the cap rate for the YP Oyster) and suffered an OSI related issue between Brixton and Hendon which messed up the validation records. As a result, when exiting at Hendon it registered an Entry and so I was either forced to make a futher journey I didn't need to, in order to be able to "touch out" or get charged a further Entry fee. Inevitably the latter happened and I had to go to Burnt Oak to have it rectified. The £5 cap had been disabled and so it was either a case of cough up more money or go without. I put an extra £5.00 on but the card did not cap as it was supposed to. At this stage I went to numerous ticket offices (using buses and the Zip Card), claimed I had no money and had no way to get around but the uniform response was "buy more credit and call the Helpline tomorrow."

I wish that there was more provision to help passengers (especially Zip Card holders) who have had genuine problems on the spot rather than referring them to the Oyster Helpline, as their records are only updated daily at 04:30.

 

[John @ home]

I think you should draw this to the attention of London Travelwatch. Their Fares & Ticketing Committee are very vigilant on Oyster matters.

 

[Old Timer]

I think you should draw this to the attention of London Travelwatch. Their Fares & Ticketing Committee are very vigilant on Oyster matters.

Wouldn't it be better to speak with the TfL Oyster hotline first ???

 

[RJ]

I think you should draw this to the attention of London Travelwatch. Their Fares & Ticketing Committee are very vigilant on Oyster matters.

Their office is around a 30 second walk from mine

The Oyster Helpline is no good when you've hit a problem mid-day and the cap is not applied as expected. Because there are so many TOCs and entities involved, it's difficult to find someone who can help you if you need to use a combination of tubes, trains and bus to get home. At their discretion LUL might do something to get you around their network if you're in dire straits, you can get unpaid fare slips on buses but I'm not sure how sympathetic the TOCs will be. In my experience, gateline staff seem to be sick to their back teeth of people who have problems with Oyster. I don't know if anybody is obliged to supply substitute paper tickets if it can be proven the Oyster Card went wrong.

The Oyster Helpline is very good indeed with the after service and sorting out issues, there's no doubting that but not much use on the day if you've allocated £5.00 for travel which ends up being insufficient due to technical problems.

 

[Mr Spock]

You have already posted about this on WNXX on the 28th so why start it here now.

Perhaps instead of running around allover the place with a minimal balance on your card you should ensure you have sufficient with a bit left over.

Alternatively perhaps you should ditch your Oyster card as it appears that you have more problems than the rest of London put together.

 

[MCR247]

You have already posted about this on WNXX on the 28th so why start it here now.

Perhaps instead of running around allover the place with a minimal balance on your card you should ensure you have sufficient with a bit left over.

Alternatively perhaps you should ditch your Oyster card as it appears that you have more problems than the rest of London put together.

Someone woke up on the wrong side this morning!

They are two separate forums, is there some rule saying he cant? There is advantages to posting on different forums because you can get different answers as there is different people.

So everytime you get a problem, you just get rid of the item? Oh no, my brand new apple mac has a scratch, I'll throw it away?!

And does that mean that in London no one ever complains about oyster?

 

[RJ]

You have already posted about this on WNXX on the 28th so why start it here now.

Your point being...? You naively assume that everybody who reads WNXX, reads this forum and vice versa. Perhaps you should spend less time trolling on the internet .

 

[ukrob]

Your point being...? You naively assume that everybody who reads WNXX, reads this forum and vice versa. Perhaps you should spend less time trolling on the internet

Agree 100%

 

[Mr Spock]

I have no problems with posting on more than one site it was just that it took 4 days to appear after the first posting and it was actually a bit of a wind up.

I did offer a bit of advice although another bit about changing his oyster card for a new one as this one does not load from machines did not appear for some reason (it was added as an edit).

 

[Flying Snail]

If you go around without a penny on you to cover unexpected situations then you are asking for trouble.

As you have already stated the oyster helpline are good at sorting these occourences out so you are only out of pocket temporarily.

Is it really outside your means to put a minimum of £10 or £20 aside in cash or on an ATM card as an emergency fund to get you home?

Very few things in life are perfect and something as complex as oyster is never going to be 100% so leaving yourself with no contingency for something as minor as a £4 oyster overcharge error is in my opinion pretty stupid.

Yes, you could say you are not in the wrong but it is you that has had all the inconvenience and aggravation of trying to get home with no money and then spent time complaining about the injustice of it all afterwards, that is a lot to go through for the sake of £4.

 

[RJ]

If you go around without a penny on you to cover unexpected situations then you are asking for trouble.

As you have already stated the oyster helpline are good at sorting these occourences out so you are only out of pocket temporarily.

Is it really outside your means to put a minimum of £10 or £20 aside in cash or on an ATM card as an emergency fund to get you home?

Very few things in life are perfect and something as complex as oyster is never going to be 100% so leaving yourself with no contingency for something as minor as a £4 oyster overcharge error is in my opinion pretty stupid.

Yes, you could say you are not in the wrong but it is you that has had all the inconvenience and aggravation of trying to get home with no money and then spent time complaining about the injustice of it all afterwards, that is a lot to go through for the sake of £4.

Of course I have contingency funds available, that is not the issue. There should be a procedure in place to help stranded passengers like there is on the big railway for paper ticket holding passengers. There probably is but many staff don't know about it. I've read various official documents concerning ticketing and penalty fares etc. and instructions where Oyster is involved seem to be vague at best. Very few ticketing and revenue staff seem to have a deep enough knowledge of the Oyster system to tell the difference between a system error and passenger error, many will assume the former and refuse to help/show discretion.

Today I had a discussion with TfL Revenue who were stinging the 12s at Elephant & Castle. I recalled the situation and the general concensus was that they and the bus drivers would show discretion, though some officers take no prisoners and would issue a notice.

 

[Mr Spock]

According to the TFL website the last Central Line train leaves around 01.00 so could you not have got that to White City where it terminates. This would have left you with money on your card for you to use the buses.

Also did you not swipe out at Ealing which should surely have put money back on your card?

 

[mathmo]

Also did you not swipe out at Ealing which should surely have put money back on your card?

This was my thought exactly. You can touch in and touch out at the same station - I did it at King's Cross once - I was trying to get to Liverpool Street (for an alternative Cambridge train) but there was over 5 minutes until the next tube and I would have almost certainly missed the train from Liverpool Street, so I touched back out again. Disappointingly it charged me for a journey. (The Oyster hotline agreed to refund me but I wasn't going back to London for months so in the end I ignored it.)

If you had touched out at Ealing Broadway I expect it would have charged you £1.30 for a Z3 single (which you could have got refunded at a later date). You would then probably have been OK, as you would have had credit left.

 

[MikeWh]

I'm not so sure. It's one of the areas that I have yet to get a clear understanding of for my website. I have heard that if you touch in and out within a small time frame then it ignores it, but this certainly wouldn't have been the case here. I think the more likely outcome is that it would charge a second incomplete journey which would have made the problem worse, not better.

 

[mathmo]

I have heard that if you touch in and out within a small time frame then it ignores it, but this certainly wouldn't have been the case here..

I touched in and out within about two or three minutes (though I don't have the times to be certain) and certainly got charged for it. This was a year ago.

However, this is somewhat off-topic for the case here - though I'd still have expected the original poster to get charged for a journey - what else would be charged?

 

[Mr Spock]

I actually thought that there was a time lag when you did not get charged but not certain.

At Euston Sq once I was delayed by a signalling problem so left the station to get a bus and got charged a Z1 fare on touching out.

 

[RJ]

Whichever way you look at it, when you touch in, at least £4.30 is coming off the card (not on buses/trams). You only get a refund if a.) you go somewhere and b.) you touch out correctly, subject to the rules and parameters the card has to follow. Validating multiple times at the same station;

<5 minutes - Merely registers a duplicate touch-in (showing your balance minus Entry Charge the second time you validate) if at a standing validator, or as below if subsequently touched out on an exit gateline. Tried this at Farringdon the other day.

5<x0 minutes - Entry charge (commonly £4.30 off peak)

>30 minutes - Entry + Exit charge, two unresolved journeys in other words.

Yes there were tubes to White City, but that was not feasible as you need to take at least two night buses to get to Paddington once there. Outside the station, bus N7 at 00:20 goes directly to Paddington. So I would have ended up paying for a journey miles short of where I needed to go, in addititon to waiting however long for two buses to show up in the middle of the night. The N7 was the better option given the circumstances. Only the 00:20 N7 never showed up so I ended up having to abandon my business at Paddington.

I could have waited for the N7 in the first place, but taking the train for £1.xx meant I would have been in Paddington before the N7 showed up (which the 00:20 N7 never did), never mind the 35 minute travel time.
There's probably a less than 1% of that situation with the fatality happening at that time of day but it wasn't my lucky night.

I spent £91.40 on a Z1-6 TKT for the next month so now I can forget all about PAYG issues .

 

[Deerfold]

I actually thought that there was a time lag when you did not get charged but not certain.

At Euston Sq once I was delayed by a signalling problem so left the station to get a bus and got charged a Z1 fare on touching out.

I'm sure there used to be - but I can't find anything about it. I'm sure there must be so that people coming out of Waterloo East can pass through Southwark Station with an oystercard even if they're travelling on a paper ticket to Waterlo East.

 

[daniels]

Whichever way you look at it, when you touch in, at least £4.30 is coming off the card (not on buses/trams). You only get a refund if a.) you go somewhere and b.) you touch out correctly, subject to the rules and parameters the card has to follow. Validating multiple times at the same station;

<5 minutes - Merely registers a duplicate touch-in (showing your balance minus Entry Charge the second time you validate) if at a standing validator, or as below if subsequently touched out on an exit gateline. Tried this at Farringdon the other day.

5<x0 minutes - Entry charge (commonly £4.30 off peak)

>30 minutes - Entry + Exit charge, two unresolved journeys in other words.

Not sure how you have deduced this.

Here's how it actually works:

At gated stations:
0-2 minutes between entry and exit
A token is written to the card chip but nothing is refunded.
If the card is used to enter any Tube / train / DLR station within 45 minutes of the exit, the first entry charge is refunded, a new one taken and a new journey started.

2-29 minutes between entry and exit
The "journey" is completed and the balance is adjusted. The entry + exit is treated as a single zone journey.

more than 29 minutes between entry and exit
As the OP wrote, another maximum fare is charged - exit recorded.

At ungated stations:
0-2 minutes
A second touch within two minutes of entry will provoke a "passback error". No additional charge

2-29 minutes between entry and second touch
The "journey" is completed and the balance is adjusted. The entry + exit is treated as a single zone journey. An exit is recorded

more than 29 minutes between entry and second touch
Another maximum fare is charged. An entry is recorded.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm sure there used to be - but I can't find anything about it. I'm sure there must be so that people coming out of Waterloo East can pass through Southwark Station with an oystercard even if they're travelling on a paper ticket to Waterlo East.

Southwark is uniquely programmed to allow Oyster payg users to touch in at one gateline and exit at the other without being charged.
A maximum entry fare is deducted on entry but refunded in full on exit. There is a time limit - can't remember it off the top of my head but the last time I went through Southwark this exception and the time limit were displayed on a poster.

 

[RJ]

Not sure how you have deduced this.

Here's how it actually works:

At gated stations:
0-2 minutes between entry and exit
A token is written to the card chip but nothing is refunded.
If the card is used to enter any Tube / train / DLR station within 45 minutes of the exit, the first entry charge is refunded, a new one taken and a new journey started.

2-29 minutes between entry and exit
The "journey" is completed and the balance is adjusted. The entry + exit is treated as a single zone journey.

more than 29 minutes between entry and exit
As the OP wrote, another maximum fare is charged - exit recorded.

At ungated stations:
0-2 minutes
A second touch within two minutes of entry will provoke a "passback error". No additional charge

2-29 minutes between entry and second touch
The "journey" is completed and the balance is adjusted. The entry + exit is treated as a single zone journey. An exit is recorded

more than 29 minutes between entry and second touch
Another maximum fare is charged. An entry is recorded.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I was at Farringdon Station the other day. I touched in on one of the standing validators and touched out at the gateline within 2 minutes. I was charged a £4.30 "here to here" journey so I'm not sure what you're saying is entirely correct.

On one occasion I arrived at Ealing Broadway and touched out on a validator on the platform, because I was close to the maximum time limit and needed to end the journey. I waited for four minutes and attempted to touch in at the same validator, it showed "Exit" again.

Never in my life have I seen a "passback error" at a standing validator. This does happen on buses if validated again within two minutes, this can be tested on bendy buses. You can repeatedly validate in quick succession til the cows come home. The first time, your current balance will show. Every single time after that, the green light will show and your balance minus entry charge will show. I take it you've quoted that text from an official source, but is it up to date?

This all reminds me that I need to talk to the helpline again, I hold a Z1-6 monthly TKT yet somehow, £3.40 of my PAYG balance has disappeared...

 

[daniels]

I was at Farringdon Station the other day. I touched in on one of the standing validators and touched out at the gateline within 2 minutes. I was charged a £4.30 "here to here" journey so I'm not sure what you're saying is entirely correct.

On one occasion I arrived at Ealing Broadway and touched out on a validator on the platform, because I was close to the maximum time limit and needed to end the journey. I waited for four minutes and attempted to touch in at the same validator, it showed "Exit" again.

Never in my life have I seen a "passback error" at a standing validator. This does happen on buses if validated again within two minutes, this can be tested on bendy buses. You can repeatedly validate in quick succession til the cows come home. The first time, your current balance will show. Every single time after that, the green light will show and your balance minus entry charge will show. I take it you've quoted that text from an official source, but is it up to date?

This all reminds me that I need to talk to the helpline again, I hold a Z1-6 monthly TKT yet somehow, £3.40 of my PAYG balance has disappeared...

You won't see the message "passback error" at ungated stations but the validators at ungated stations will prevent another token whether entry or exit from being written to the chip within 2 minutes of a validated entry - so is effectively the same thing.

Re. the "here to here journey" at Farringdon - that is exactly what I wrote would happen. You touched in on a bidirectional validator, an entry was written to your card. The £4.30 was deducted on entry. The display shows Enter and the balance before entry. You touched out at a gate locked to exit - your balance is unaffected, a same station exit is written to you card, the display shows Exit, your balance after exit and -£4.30 in parantheses. Had you touched back in at Farringdon on any gate or validator withing 45 minutes of the exit touch (or walked to another station and done the same), the "here to here" charge, as you put it, would have been refunded and a new entry charge deducted.
It is programmed in this way to allow for the following scenarios:
- cardholder see balance on entry is less than needed to make journey, top-up not available inside the gated area. Gate allows exit and re-entry within 45 minutes without charging more than the eventual single fare.
- cardholder forgets (to do) something and needs to exit and re-enter before making journey.
- cardholder enters station at "wrong" gateline and needs to exit and re-enter before making journey.
- cardholder does not see that services are disrupted before touching in, exits within two minutes of entry, walks to another station (or takes rail replacement bus which does not require Oyster validation to another station) and re-enters the second station within 45 minutes of the first station exit.

Re. the £3.40 charge:
You have set your Oyster Extension Permit to "on", or a vendor has done so and you have made a journey starting between 04:30 and 6:30 or between 09:30 and 16.00 or after 19:00 and been charged a maximum fare. The Oyster helpline will refund the charge as long as you can explain your journey. They will also advise you to set your OEP to "off" if you haven't already done so.

I am not quoting from any official text. I don't need to.

I am awake because a fox is screaming outside my building.

 

[MikeWh]

@daniels: A slight variation on this ... can you explain what happens when you exit and then try to enter within two minutes at an ungated station? I had a situation recently where I exited at Elmers End and tried to re-enter again a minute later. It said "seek assistance" (yeah right, as if there's going to be anyone there at about 10pm). I boarded the train (it was the last one so couldn't wait) and then hopped off at New Beckenham to touch in on a validator there so that I'd have a valid entry. The other leg of my journey from Lewisham to Crayford would result in a 4 zone fare being deducted so I wasn't dodging payment. Anyway, when I got to Crayford and touched out it said Entry. Ooops! The journey history/statement recorded it as a Crayford to New Beckenham Journey plus an unresolved journey at Crayford. It seems to have ignored all touches at Elmers End. The helpdesk have already sorted out the card balance.

Also, could you post a comment on my Oyster site so that I can contact you directly. The comment can be anything because it won't appear if I don't approve it. Alternatively, make 3 more posts on here and I can send you a PM.

 

[daniels]

@daniels: A slight variation on this ... can you explain what happens when you exit and then try to enter within two minutes at an ungated station? I had a situation recently where I exited at Elmers End and tried to re-enter again a minute later. It said "seek assistance" (yeah right, as if there's going to be anyone there at about 10pm). I boarded the train (it was the last one so couldn't wait) and then hopped off at New Beckenham to touch in on a validator there so that I'd have a valid entry. The other leg of my journey from Lewisham to Crayford would result in a 4 zone fare being deducted so I wasn't dodging payment. Anyway, when I got to Crayford and touched out it said Entry. Ooops! The journey history/statement recorded it as a Crayford to New Beckenham Journey plus an unresolved journey at Crayford. It seems to have ignored all touches at Elmers End. The helpdesk have already sorted out the card balance.

Also, could you post a comment on my Oyster site so that I can contact you directly. The comment can be anything because it won't appear if I don't approve it. Alternatively, make 3 more posts on here and I can send you a PM.

There is currently no "buffer" programmed for entry following exit at the vast majority of validators - this applies equally at gated and ungated stations. You will know this to be the case if you have ever experienced the accidental double touch on exit at an ungated station, or on a manual side gate validator at a gated station, which results in a maximum fare being charged for entry.

So something else happened to your card at Elmers End. Possibly a communication error between the validator and your card? Or a technical problem with the validators at Elmers End at that particular moment which prevented re-entry?

There are programmed exceptions where a successful exit transaction at one or more specific validators at a specific station followed by a touch at one or more specific validators at the same or another station produces an "exit" message rather than the expected "entry". I seem to think that Canary Wharf DLR, South Quay and Heron Quays may be examples of such stations. There is a programmed time period (don't know the details) during which any subsequent touches simply "reconfirms" the exit or, if you exit at one such station and then continue to another station to which a higher fare applies, simply extends or "continues" the exit, deducting the difference between the A-B fare and the A-C fare. Perhaps someone has an example of such a journey.
Maximum journey time programming would apply to such journeys as it does to journeys involving one or more OSI. So even if the A-B journey was completed within the time limit if, when the card is touched at C, the A-C MJT has been exceeded, the system will deduct another maximum fare or reject the final exit because of insufficient credit.

 

[MikeWh]

Thanks for that input. It all seems to make sense. Just a shame there was that glitch at Elmers End or it would all have worked. I even tried using the other validator for the entry. With hindsight, perhaps I'd have been better off using the same one.

If you tried to make extra posts after that one above then unfortunately it failed. The forum combines adjacent posts by the same person and doesn't update the post count. Two more to go.

 

[Mojo]

I was at Farringdon Station the other day. I touched in on one of the standing validators and touched out at the gateline within 2 minutes. I was charged a £4.30 "here to here" journey.

I was once told that the reason for a charge being applied in such a manner was to prevent someone touching in to get through the barriers and then touching out immediately, knowing that their exit station is ungated and then being able to make a journey for free unless they got inspected on the train.

 

[RJ]

Maximum journey time programming would apply to such journeys as it does to journeys involving one or more OSI. So even if the A-B journey was completed within the time limit if, when the card is touched at C, the A-C MJT has been exceeded, the system will deduct another maximum fare or reject the final exit because of insufficient credit.

Indeed. Note that some TOCs will Penalty Fare a passenger if this happens. I made a journey from Forest Hill - Manor Park <-OSI-> Woodgrange Park - Wanstead Park <- OSI-> Forest Gate to Liverpool Street. The card considered it a Forest Hill - Liverpool Street journey on the principle that there is a flat fare between two points, regardless of route. Unfortunately I exceeded the MJT for that by three minutes which resulted in 1x Entry Fee at Forest Hill deducted and rejected entry at Liverpool Street exit barrier.

There is currently no "buffer" programmed for entry following exit at the vast majority of validators - this applies equally at gated and ungated stations. You will know this to be the case if you have ever experienced the accidental double touch on exit at an ungated station, or on a manual side gate validator at a gated station, which results in a maximum fare being charged for entry.

Double touch (assuming you mean an immediate subsequent touch) only seems to repeat what it said the first time. I've "touched out" at standing validators several times in quick succession and they show "Exit" every time. Only after 5 minutes or so of not validating will it show Entry again. I've actively tried it, though it changes when I have a TKT loaded.

 

[daniels]

Indeed. Note that some TOCs will Penalty Fare a passenger if this happens. I made a journey from Forest Hill - Manor Park <-OSI-> Woodgrange Park - Wanstead Park <- OSI-> Forest Gate to Liverpool Street. The card considered it a Forest Hill - Liverpool Street journey on the principle that there is a flat fare between two points, regardless of route. Unfortunately I exceeded the MJT for that by three minutes which resulted in 1x Entry Fee at Forest Hill deducted and rejected entry at Liverpool Street exit barrier.

I have read that thread. You should not have been charged a penalty fare. You will win your appeal.

Double touch (assuming you mean an immediate subsequent touch) only seems to repeat what it said the first time. I've "touched out" at standing validators several times in quick succession and they show "Exit" every time. Only after 5 minutes or so of not validating will it show Entry again. I've actively tried it, though it changes when I have a TKT loaded.

Then you were at an exception station. Do you remember where?

My own online journey history for Wednesday evening. National Railcard discount loaded. NB the different gatelines are OSId but exit at a validator on an ungated platform followed by reentry at a "standalone" validator or at a gate, in this case, does not trigger an OSI but instead starts a new journey. (It is not because the validators / gates appear with the same "9-19" label by the way. If you touch out at a gate set to exit and reenter at another gate or validator at Victoria within the time limit, an OSI would be triggered)
The first four touches (reading from bottom to top) were made on validators on the ungated Gatwick express platforms.

18/08/10 20:59 Queens Road Peckham [National Rail] Exit £3.05 £4.70
20:35 Victoria (platforms 9-19) [National Rail] Entry - £4.20 £1.65
20:28 Victoria (platforms 9-19) [National Rail] Exit £3.20 £5.85
20:25 Victoria (platforms 9-19) [National Rail] Entry - £4.20 £2.65
20:25 Victoria (platforms 9-19) [National Rail] Exit £3.20 £6.85
20:22 Victoria (platforms 9-19) [National Rail] Entry - £4.20 £3.65

 

[MikeWh]

(It is not because the validators / gates appear with the same "9-19" label by the way. If you touch out at a gate set to exit and reenter at another gate or validator at Victoria within the time limit, an OSI would be triggered)

Are you sure? The reason I ask is that I have an email from someone at ATOC which states quite clearly that if exit and entry at London Bridge is through the same gateline (either Southeastern p1-6 or Southern p8-16) then an OSI would not be triggered. It only works if entry and exit are through different gatelines. That was certainly my experience earlier this year, though it has to be said that the inter-NR OSIs at London Bridge didn't work full stop at the start of the year. Of course the issue is made worse at London Bridge because some services to/from the south operate from platforms 5-6. It would be good if you could exit and enter via the same gateline.

 

[daniels]

Are you sure? The reason I ask is that I have an email from someone at ATOC which states quite clearly that if exit and entry at London Bridge is through the same gateline (either Southeastern p1-6 or Southern p8-16) then an OSI would not be triggered. It only works if entry and exit are through different gatelines. That was certainly my experience earlier this year, though it has to be said that the inter-NR OSIs at London Bridge didn't work full stop at the start of the year. Of course the issue is made worse at London Bridge because some services to/from the south operate from platforms 5-6. It would be good if you could exit and enter via the same gateline.

Hi,

I was referring specifically to Victoria station. I can't tell you off the top of my head what the arrangement is at London Bridge NR but the advice re rentering the same gateline sounds like it should be that way. I have a vague suspicion that even if it isn't the case, ATOC might advise you that it is in order to deter people from breaking their journey (which Oyster payg is not supposed to allow) and doing some shopping.

I should have also been more careful with my words. I was trying to explain that the situation is more complex than my journey history might lead you to believe. As you know, platforms 9-19 are physically split into three areas. An exit at a gate from platforms 9-13 (that is one gateline - from memory), followed by a touch in at the gateline to get to platform 17 would trigger an OSI. The platform grouping displayed on Oyster online should not be used to infer that an OSI would not be triggered if changing trains between platforms 9-19 where an exit and reentry are required.

I guess there is at least one flaw at Victoria NR. Some non-Gatwick Express trains use platform 13 from time to time. If you were changing to or from platform 13 to or from another platform, it looks like an OSI would not be triggered.