Continued use of self-print tickets

[All Line Rover]

Transpennine Express still issues self-print tickets. What they call e-tickets are actually m-tickets and, in my opinion, should be banned.

Interesting. Is ATOS, which provides TPE's booking engine, invested in these outdated formats?

What rubbish that, with the m-ticket format (which I have posted about here: https://railforums.co.uk/threads/continued-use-of-m-tickets.209598), "Your device [which must be a modern Apple or Android device] will need enough charge for the whole of the journey, including your final station, so that you can show your ticket when asked.", when the e-ticket format allows the PDF to be printed as a back-up.

A browse of TPE's website has also reminded me that self-print tickets, which are the subject of this thread, not only require printing but also require ID to be carried during the journey. And this ID must be specified at the time of booking; if a passport is to be carried, even the passport number must be specified at the time of booking!

If you are confused by this plethora of fulfilment methods, you have every right to be.

 

[crablab]

I believe at one point CrossCountry were advertising m-tickets but giving you e-tickets.

Also, something something ITSO

 

[Wallsendmag]

Interesting. Is ATOS, which provides TPE's booking engine, invested in these outdated formats?

They changed their name to Worldline some years ago.

 

[_toommm_]

Transpennine Express still issues self-print tickets. What they call e-tickets are actually m-tickets and, in my opinion, should be banned.



One of the current problems with e-tickets is that a certain Train Operating Company (or perhaps companies, I’m not sure) still lacks either the will or the competence, or both, to issue certain types of ticket competently in this format.

Transpennine do not issue m-tickets. Tickets don’t need activating before use, and are emailed to the passenger. They’re definitely e-tickets.

 

[AM9]

You may not have but you’d be surprised how many people have done.

That tiny fraction of the travelling public probably also has problems losing other things. If they are capable of losing their credit card sized tickets, then the credit cards are also at risk, along with their keys, phone etc.. This conversation is about an early attempt to introduce a self-print ticket that the railway's fears of fraudulent use caused the design's 'protections' to be unworkable. If the optical readable code, (trying to avoid any pedantic reprimand for not naming the actual genre of the code here), is compatible with current gate platforms, they can just be allowed to fade away when the individual issuers and users change to something else, but the option of a paper ticket should be available for the forseeable future. There is no point in disenfranchising potential passengers by removing a perfectly functional ticket system that has served the railway for nearly 200 years in favour of a piece of electronics that depth their ever falling cost, some will never choose to own.

 

[Wallsendmag]

That tiny fraction of the travelling public probably also has problems losing other things. If they are capable of losing their credit card sized tickets, then the credit cards are also at risk, along with their keys, phone etc.. This conversation is about an early attempt to introduce a self-print ticket that the railway's fears of fraudulent use caused the design's 'protections' to be unworkable. If the optical readable code, (trying to avoid any pedantic reprimand for not naming the actual genre of the code here), is compatible with current gate platforms, they can just be allowed to fade away when the individual issuers and users change to something else, but the option of a paper ticket should be available for the forseeable future. There is no point in disenfranchising potential passengers by removing a perfectly functional ticket system that has served the railway for nearly 200 years in favour of a piece of electronics that depth their ever falling cost, some will never choose to own.

OK thanks for your opinion. Unfortunately for you it doesn't tie in with the DfT and RDGs view.

 

[Bletchleyite]

OK thanks for your opinion. Unfortunately for you it doesn't tie in with the DfT and RDGs view.

The easy way to solve this is to switch to e-tickets, but allow stations and TVMs to issue and print them.

A4 laser printers would be cheaper than specialist ticket printers (and I bet cheap recycled A4 paper cheaper than ticket stock), so there's a saving there, too.

And before anyone shouts that it's completely infeasible, DB print tickets sold in ticket offices on standard office laser printers, albeit on pink-and-blue CIV preprinted backgrounds.

 

[Haywain]

This conversation is about an early attempt to introduce a self-print ticket that the railway's fears of fraudulent use caused the design's 'protections' to be unworkable.

The conversation is about the use of a barcode ticket format which has been superseded, having been in successful use for the around 10 years - not the lifespan of something that was "unworkable".

the option of a paper ticket should be available for the forseeable future. There is no point in disenfranchising potential passengers

As has been previously stated, the e-ticket can be printed out so no-one is being disenfranchised by removal of the option of carrying a piece of paper if that is what they prefer. On the contrary, those people are getting new protection against losing said piece of paper by having the option of possessing the ticket in multiple formats, some of which will be accessible if they happen to become part of the "tiny fraction of the travelling public" who lose their piece of paper alongside those who lose other devices or methods of payment.

 

[BayPaul]

That tiny fraction of the travelling public probably also has problems losing other things. If they are capable of losing their credit card sized tickets, then the credit cards are also at risk, along with their keys, phone etc..

I keep my credit card inside my phone case, so don't lose it. If I keep a orange ticket there, it tends to wipe the magnetic strip, so I have to find somewhere else to keep it, normally my back pocket to avoid it coming into contact with my phone, so yes, I have lost / crushed tickets a few times, which is why I much prefer some type of ticket that is viewable on my phone, and which I can re-download/print if I do lose it.

 

[AM9]

The conversation is about the use of a barcode ticket format which has been superseded, having been in successful use for the around 10 years - not the lifespan of something that was "unworkable".

As has been previously stated, the e-ticket can be printed out so no-one is being disenfranchised by removal of the option of carrying a piece of paper if that is what they prefer. On the contrary, those people are getting new protection against losing said piece of paper by having the option of possessing the ticket in multiple formats, some of which will be accessible if they happen to become part of the "tiny fraction of the travelling public" who lose their piece of paper alongside those who lose other devices or methods of payment.

I have no objections to the 'e-ticket' becoming the default and even the only type of ticket available. It's visual appearance is largely irrelevant provided it can be clearly read by average sighted human. Provided that anybody turning up at a station can purchase a ticket of that nature as a choice, whether they have a smartphone (or whatever the electronic device of fashion is in the future), or not. That would require a facility to print them on a medium that is affordable, durable and universally acceptable using a device that has a reliability appropriate to its use, at the station or location of purchase. Paper (or card), a 2000 year old IT invention and still in common use everywhere, would seem like a good example.

 

[FQTV]

Transpennine do not issue m-tickets. Tickets don’t need activating before use, and are emailed to the passenger. They’re definitely e-tickets.

A list of Transpennine Express ticket issuing options:



The list of options is:

e-Ticket
Collect your ticket from the station
Self Print
Post
Special Delivery

The point is that what they call an 'e-Ticket' isn't.

Indeed, the 'more info' link effectively says as much.

Mobile Ticket

What are E Tickets?
E Tickets, also known as mobile tickets are available to purchase on our website and mobile app. Customers that select the E Ticket delivery option will receive their ticket in digital format via the TransPennine Express app.

The key characteristic is that an e-Ticket is device-agnostic and can be printed out.

An m-Ticket is tied to an app and cannot be printed out.

The fact that Transpennine Express (and Grand Central, now I come to think of it) call m-Tickets 'e-Tickets' is wrong and confusing to those to used to the reality of the latter.

 

[Haywain]

The fact that Transpennine Express (and Grand Central, now I come to think of it) call m-Tickets 'e-Tickets' is wrong and confusing to those to used to the reality of the latter.

You are saying this in spite of a number of other posters on these threads about self-print and m-tickets stating that what they have actually received from TPE are genuine e-tickets.

 

[Starmill]

The TPE website also refers to needing an iTunes account which is rather an odd choice of words.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Sep 2020 ==

You are saying this in spite of a number of other posters on these threads about self-print and m-tickets stating that what they have actually received from TPE are genuine e-tickets.

Indeed. I had exactly the problem FQTV is describing but it was around a year ago. It was very inconvenient so I haven't used an eticket from them again, but there are enough reports now that TPE have dropped their ludicrous in-app restrictions.

 

[Haywain]

The TPE website also refers to needing an iTunes account which is rather an odd choice of words.

I am pretty sure that some years ago the app store was part of iTunes. Unfortunately it shows a lack of attention to detail in matters as simple as wording, which doesn't inspire great confidence.

 

[DeeGee]

I don't think (as an adult) that I've ever lost a paper ticket, - given that they are the same size as a credit card. I despair at those who can't seem to keep something as simple, especially when the consequences of losing it can be so serious. It is quite easy to carry something else as well as a phone.
It's also just as easy to lose a mobile phone!

I keep my credit card inside my phone case, so don't lose it. If I keep a orange ticket there, it tends to wipe the magnetic strip, so I have to find somewhere else to keep it, normally my back pocket to avoid it coming into contact with my phone, so yes, I have lost / crushed tickets a few times, which is why I much prefer some type of ticket that is viewable on my phone, and which I can re-download/print if I do lose it.

Many people, particularly the students I work with, now use their phones as their payment method, and don't carry credit/debit cards, therefore by implication probably don't carry a wallet. It's much easier to just have to keep your eye on one thing. I often no longer take my wallet with me when I go out, as I'm trying to be cashless and contactless. I like an e-ticket on my phone (and a mobile boarding pass on the plane) for that very reason.

 

[BayPaul]

Many people, particularly the students I work with, now use their phones as their payment method, and don't carry credit/debit cards, therefore by implication probably don't carry a wallet. It's much easier to just have to keep your eye on one thing. I often no longer take my wallet with me when I go out, as I'm trying to be cashless and contactless. I like an e-ticket on my phone (and a mobile boarding pass on the plane) for that very reason.

Exactly - I haven't owned a wallet for about 4 years now, and don't miss it! A couple of cards and a single note just in case a shop won't take card (though I tend to avoid these shops wherever I can) in my phone case and android pay does the job perfectly. One less thing to bulge out my pocket. I'd love to replace my keys too, but that's probably a little way away.

 

[_toommm_]

A list of Transpennine Express ticket issuing options:

View attachment 84101

The list of options is:

e-Ticket
Collect your ticket from the station
Self Print
Post
Special Delivery

The point is that what they call an 'e-Ticket' isn't.

Indeed, the 'more info' link effectively says as much.

Mobile Ticket

The key characteristic is that an e-Ticket is device-agnostic and can be printed out.

An m-Ticket is tied to an app and cannot be printed out.

The fact that Transpennine Express (and Grand Central, now I come to think of it) call m-Tickets 'e-Tickets' is wrong and confusing to those to used to the reality of the latter.

But, as I've stated many a time, they issue e-tickets. Below is the email associated with one of literally several hundred bookings I make per year with TPE, and as you can see the tickets are attached to the email. The info, as noted by others, is incorrect and I can say categorically they issue e-tickets.

 

[FQTV]

But, as I've stated many a time, they issue e-tickets. Below is the email associated with one of literally several hundred bookings I make per year with TPE, and as you can see the tickets are attached to the email. The info, as noted by others, is incorrect and I can say categorically they issue e-tickets.

View attachment 84115
View attachment 84116

With, respect, that shows an eTicket for a Transpennine Express journey, not the issuer of the ticket (which would show at the bottom of the ticket, but is unfortunately cropped-out).

What I showed is a screenshot from TPE, from today, which shows them issuing m-Tickets and Self Print tickets.

I can’t discount the possibility that TPE can issue an actual e-Ticket; what I’m reporting is that they (and others) are continuing to confuse matters by issuing things that are not, even though individual characteristics of the ticket types that they are issuing may be similar.

To widen matters further, I’ve also had e-Tickets for TPE routes, issued by others, with stated terms and conditions at variance to those issued on other media.

Edited: to note that the screenshot header does apparently show a TPE website. However, that doesn’t divert from the other points above.

 

[Hadders]

With, respect, that shows an eTicket for a Transpennine Express journey, not the issuer of the ticket (which would show at the bottom of the ticket, but is unfortunately cropped-out).

What I showed is a screenshot from TPE, from today, which shows them issuing m-Tickets and Self Print tickets.

I can’t discount the possibility that TPE can issue an actual e-Ticket; what I’m reporting is that they (and others) are continuing to confuse matters by issuing things that are not, even though individual characteristics of the ticket types that they are issuing may be similar.

To widen matters further, I’ve also had e-Tickets for TPE routes, issued by others, with stated terms and conditions at variance to those issued on other media.

Edited: to note that the screenshot header does apparently show a TPE website. However, that doesn’t divert from the other points above.

Look at the very top of the screenshot @_toommm_ has posted and you'll clearly see it's a purchase from Transpennine.

It appears that Transpennine Express do issue genuine e-tickets but need to update their website to say this.

 

[FQTV]

Look at the very top of the screenshot @_toommm_ has posted and you'll clearly see it's a purchase from Transpennine.

It appears that Transpennine Express do issue genuine e-tickets but need to update their website to say this.

As you’ll see from my post, I acknowledged that, but it does not in any way divert from the fact that they are still selling m-Tickets as e-Tickets through at least one of their channels, as my screenshot shows.

If they don’t realise that, then it’s even more indefensible.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 29 Sep 2020 ==

Having had a further check, Grand Central has apparently started to issue proper e-Tickets, at least through Safari, although they’re still perpetuating the notion that somehow their App is a priority.



So, Transpennine definitely does still offer m-Tickets as e-Tickets, but Grand Central may have stopped.

 

[_toommm_]

Transpennine definitely issue e-tickets for other TOCs. Northern don't issue them through their own app (instead offering m-tickets), but TPE offer e-tickets. I've also used LNER, XC and Chiltern (all bought through their app), with the tickets emailed to me.

 

[DeeGee]

I've just bought three tickets from TPE.

The one from them for an LNER journey was issued as an e-ticket within the app. I had an option for first class post, or ToD, but I prefer to not have physical tickets these days. I've left tickets at home just one too many times.
The two from them on their own journeys were only offered as physical tickets.

I can't find an email confirmation for the e-ticket, but it is in my app. It does not appear to need activating.

 

[Argyle 1980]

Are there any TOCs, third-party retailers and/or call centres that continue to offer self-print tickets as a fulfilment method for certain journey + ticket type combinations?

By "self-print tickets", I'm referring to the older standard that prints on A4 paper, not newer e-tickets which do not require printing and can be easily displayed on digital devices.

If self-print tickets are still in limited circulation, why? Why have they not been phased out?

I think your trying to difference between the newer Etickets that are common place now, the format that can be used in multiple ways that are attached to booking email and also appear in the app which can either be shown or printed. And the older type that were print at home only and took the entire page up, and which required a name and last digits of card# to be entered.
The latter (I might be wrong) I think GWR were the last TOC to issue tickets in this format. I know when you book an advance ticket on GWR site it still gives the option of print at home in addition to Eticket, yet if you try and check the print at home box, it just boots you back to the delivery option page again.
I think these tickets were only ever issued for advance tickets by GWR as if you selected a day or off peak ticket it would only offer Mticket as a delivery option.
After mobile QR and gateline scanners became more prevalent and the newer hybrid etickets could also cater for day and off peak tickets, then the writing was always going to be on the wall for the older self print.
Incidentally, I've bought hundreds of the older ones off GWR and XC (when they still issued them) and never once was I asked by revenue staff for ID to check.
Last one I bought off GWR was in September last year. After that it seemed to be Mticket only until more recently when they started issuing the newer hybrid tickets like other TOCs.

 

[Argyle 1980]

Transpennine Express still issues self-print tickets. What they call e-tickets are actually m-tickets and, in my opinion, should be banned.



One of the current problems with e-tickets is that a certain Train Operating Company (or perhaps companies, I’m not sure) still lacks either the will or the competence, or both, to issue certain types of ticket competently in this format.

Southeastern point blank refuse to embrace them, and have no intention too either. They try blaming TFL it.
I travel a lot at short notice from my local station in Cornwall to Folkestone. And because of Southeasterns refusal, it's no longer possible to buy a ticket unless it's posted, so its difficult to get a ticket less than a week in advance.
Southeastern also refuse the newer paper QR tickets too (which most conductors in Cornwall have machines for) And they can't blame TFL for this one either as it's also impossible to buy a ticket from East Anglia to Kent on a paper QR ticket either, even though it doesn't require cross London transport.
Southern, Thameslink, GN, Gatwick Express are all under the same parent company, yet they issue and accept Etickets. Quite a surprise really as Go Ahead bus arm were probably the most proactive in introducing etickets on buses too

 

[alistairlees]

Southeastern point blank refuse to embrace them, and have no intention too either. They try blaming TFL it.
I travel a lot at short notice from my local station in Cornwall to Folkestone. And because of Southeasterns refusal, it's no longer possible to buy a ticket unless it's posted, so its difficult to get a ticket less than a week in advance.
Southeastern also refuse the newer paper QR tickets too (which most conductors in Cornwall have machines for) And they can't blame TFL for this one either as it's also impossible to buy a ticket from East Anglia to Kent on a paper QR ticket either, even though it doesn't require cross London transport.
Southern, Thameslink, GN, Gatwick Express are all under the same parent company, yet they issue and accept Etickets. Quite a surprise really as Go Ahead bus arm were probably the most proactive in introducing etickets on buses too

You should have no difficulty being offered to collect a ticket from a ticket machine (“Ticket on Departure”); there’s no need to wait for post.

Routes where it is possible to travel via London (even if you don’t have to) are not currently enabled for barcode tickets (of any form) because TfL won’t accept barcode tickets, for quite reasonable reasons. Solutions are being examined.

Southeastern don’t accept barcode tickets at the moment. Who knows, perhaps that will change?

Barcode tickets in the rail industry use the Aztec barcode standard, rather than QR codes.

 

[Argyle 1980]

You should have no difficulty being offered to collect a ticket from a ticket machine (“Ticket on Departure”); there’s no need to wait for post.

Routes where it is possible to travel via London (even if you don’t have to) are not currently enabled for barcode tickets (of any form) because TfL won’t accept barcode tickets, for quite reasonable reasons. Solutions are being examined.

Southeastern don’t accept barcode tickets at the moment. Who knows, perhaps that will change?

Barcode tickets in the rail industry use the Aztec barcode standard, rather than QR codes.

None of my local stations have TVMs and despite growing passenger numbers and increased service frequency, there are actually now plans to install them, probably because the majority of pax use Etickets now.
Without finger pointing at individual TOCs too much, how can a national rail system have been left to get in a position where it's impossible to buy a ticket between two stations in England either online, at the station or even onboard the train?
Majority of times the train manager on GWR service from Cornwall tells me to wait until Paddington to sort my ticket out, a couple of others have insisted I buy a ticket to London and then get it refunded at the ticket office at Paddington and re purchase the correct ticket. There's also a lot of unmanned stations in East Anglia this is applicable too.
During disruption when I've had Etickets to Brighton/Worthing via Reading and Gatwick or via Westbury/Salisbury and have been diverted via Paddington/Victoria via underground, TFL staff have never given me any hassle with them.
Only time in the Southern region I've had an issue with them was at Angmering a couple of weeks ago when the Gateline assistant tried telling me it wasn't valid and apparently it was only a booking confirmation blah blah, and we don't accept them as somebody could print 10 copies off ect. The ticket was even issued by Southern, with their logo on it FFS. He eventually opened the gate but made his feelings clear, and even had the cheek to say he could have penalty fared me. TBH, I wish he had, because he'd have been the one that looked incredibly stupid.

There is a potential scenario where an Eticket could potentially be legitimately bought to a Southeastern managed station I think. Any ticket into Waterloo on from an SWR station to London Terminals is still valid to continue via Waterloo East to either Charing X or London Bridge. Correct me if I'm wrong.