Penalty fare notice

[Suew67]

Hi,

My 14 year old daughter and 2 of her friends (same age) arrived at Glasshoughton station a little later than planned to discover the train was already on the platform. There was a large queue at the ticket machine and none of them have debit cards anyway. Because of the age of these girls they did not think it would be a problem to pay when arriving at Leeds station. Subsequently when they arrived at Leeds they went straight to to the pay desk to purchase return tickets and was told to "go see that guy over there"as they didn't have promise to pay tickets. I would have thought the given the age of these girls (under 16) and their lack of knowledge regarding promise to pay, they would have been lenient seeing as they had gone straight to buy a return ticket.

 

[Seehof]

Please - what happened when they went to see the “guy over there”?

 

[Horizon22]

Please - what happened when they went to see the “guy over there”?

I am presuming they were then given the Penalty Fare, but yes it needs detail on what they were told and what they admitted to.

 

[clagmonster]

Where any entrance onto a platform at the station is not the entrance to, or situated within, a compulsory ticket area, a notice complying with the requirements of paragraph 1 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 (“a standard notice”) must be displayed at that entrance. Northern's Protection, Enforcement and Prosecutions Policy does state:
"Where appropriate Northern will seek to divert young people away from the Criminal Justice System."

Penalties, Notices and Reports

Northern | Buy Cheap Train Tickets and Check Train Times

www.northernrailway.co.uk

However, my understanding is that penalty fares are not a part of the criminal justice system, and I see nothing in The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018 to prevent a penalty fare being issued to a 14 year old.

I notice that you state that the passengers did not have knowledge of promise to pay. As part of the penalty fares scheme, Northern is required to have sufficient warning signage at the origin station. These lines are relevant:
"Where any entrance onto a platform at the station is not the entrance to, or situated within, a compulsory ticket area, a notice complying with the requirements of paragraph 1 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 (“a standard notice”) must be displayed at that entrance. "
"Standard notices and compulsory ticket area notices must also be displayed at sufficient locations around the station so that at least one notice is readily visible to passengers prior to boarding a train at the station, including passengers changing from one train to another train."

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018

These Regulations make provision for the charging of penalty fares for the failure to produce, when required to do so, a ticket or other authority authorising a person to travel by train or to be present in a compulsory ticket area at a station.

www.legislation.gov.uk

Details of the notices are here: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/schedule/1/made
The section about compulsory ticket areas is not relevant in this case.

Where these signs present in line with the requirements, or was it just the case that your daughter and her friends missed them?

Sorry for the long post.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

In response to Clagmonster's otherwise helpful post, the OP mentioned that the passengers were 14 year olds and that the train they were wanting to catch was already at the station. Not an excuse and the required signage may well be there, but unlikely to have been noticed at the time. It might need a reconnaissance visit to Glasshoughton station to verify one way or the other.

 

[clagmonster]

I agree that a reconnaissance trip would be a good idea.

 

[Western Sunset]

Somehow I don't think 14-year olds are going to look at the minutiae of station signage when their train is already at the platform and they want to board it.

 

[father_jack]

In response to Clagmonster's otherwise helpful post, the OP mentioned that the passengers were 14 year olds and that the train they were wanting to catch was already at the station. Not an excuse and the required signage may well be there, but unlikely to have been noticed at the time. It might need a reconnaissance visit to Glasshoughton station to verify one way or the other.

There's an hourly service Saturdays, 2 hourly Sundays. So there's still a queue at the machine when the train is already in when most people would know from the timetable that the service is that infrequent ?

Doesn't sound right from the start. More info needed from the OP.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Didn't the OP state that the 14 year olds arrived "late" at Glasshoughton? Again, not an excuse, but a possible explanation as to what may have happened.

 

[WesternLancer]

I suspect the OP may be of the view that the railway would show leniant discretion on the kids concerned given their apparent intention to buy a ticket on arrival.

Not an unreasonable stance to take.

Also the OP may not fully appreciate that teenagers travelling without tickets is probably more common than it should be and thus staff desire to show such discretion wears thin.

 

[clagmonster]

I suspect the OP may be of the view that the railway would show leniant discretion on the kids concerned given their apparent intention to buy a ticket on arrival.

Not an unreasonable stance to take.

Also the OP may not fully appreciate that teenagers travelling without tickets is probably more common than it should be and thus staff desire to show such discretion wears thin.

It is a view that I sympathise with, but in that case one would need to write to one's MP in a bid to have the law changed such that penalty fares may not be charged below a certain age. One's view as to whether the procedure is right or not does not affect whether a penalty was correctly issued under that procedure.

 

[Suew67]

It is a view that I sympathise with, but in that case one would need to write to one's MP in a bid to have the law changed such that penalty fares may not be charged below a certain age. One's view as to whether the procedure is right or not does not affect whether a penalty was correctly issued under that procedure.

Thanks for all your replies, I think what I am getting at is the fact that they were not trying to evade paying for a ticket and yes how many teenagers are reading signage when they are with their friends. It is the fact that this seems to be a money making business and reading previous posts, people have appealed and the appeal has gone against them. Obviously my daughter will not be paying the fee as she does not have the money to pay for it.

 

[WesternLancer]

It is a view that I sympathise with, but in that case one would need to write to one's MP in a bid to have the law changed such that penalty fares may not be charged below a certain age. One's view as to whether the procedure is right or not does not affect whether a penalty was correctly issued under that procedure.

Yes, that is a fair point.

 

[35B]

Thanks for all your replies, I think what I am getting at is the fact that they were not trying to evade paying for a ticket and yes how many teenagers are reading signage when they are with their friends. It is the fact that this seems to be a money making business and reading previous posts, people have appealed and the appeal has gone against them. Obviously my daughter will not be paying the fee as she does not have the money to pay for it.

The issue that you and she need to face into is that, whatever the rights and wrongs of the law, it is ultimately a matter of law and your success in appealing this depends on working within the parameters set by the law, not what you or I may consider "fair".

There has been good advice given further up the thread about checking whether the notices at the station comply with the regulations as, if not, they mean that the penalty is unenforceable. Otherwise, if Northern are not prepared to bend, the choice is between payment of the penalty and taking the risk that Northern will treat this not as a penalty fare matter, but as a case of deliberate fare evasion, which is a criminal matter.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks for all your replies, I think what I am getting at is the fact that they were not trying to evade paying for a ticket and yes how many teenagers are reading signage when they are with their friends. It is the fact that this seems to be a money making business and reading previous posts, people have appealed and the appeal has gone against them. Obviously my daughter will not be paying the fee as she does not have the money to pay for it.

Yes, I sympathize - esp where penalty fare areas have been created I am not sure that the signage is prominent in the way someone who may once have seen people pay at the destination or to the guard is clear - for example where I am when the tram system started a £50 penalty fare system the signage was on the door of the tram so in theory at least you could not get on without having passed a pretty clear sign to say 'no ticket will cost you £50 spot fine' - not that people would always read it however. Since most Northern Trains routes are such areas they could have such signage on the actual trains perhaps, or train doors.

There certainly other threads on here in the recent past of people seeking to buy a ticket on arrival at Leeds (or even when changing trains there as I recall earlier this year with a Headingly to London journey) and being directed to staff who have then issued a penalty or fare evasion notices.

For clarity you have not actually set out what happened when your daughter and friends were sent to speak to the other member of staff, what has your daughter been issued with - a penalty fare or a more serious thing - eg an accusation of fare dodging and being on a route to court action?

I will rely on others to clarify this as I am not sure, but I would imagine that parents are not necessarily legally liable for penalties incurred by their children. If this is the case, and you decided not to pay the charge for her, I assume the railway ultimately has a process for dealing with that, though I am not sure how they would obtain the sum from a minor? Not that I expect you want to go down that route.

I assume the fare due was at least a £2.15 Child Anytime single Glasshoughton to Leeds so if it is Penalty Far I guess it is £20 due?

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I think that the OP will get a great deal of sympathy here - but not some sort of 'get out of jail free' card. If I have understood matters properly

- the OP's 14 year old daughter and friends didn't buy tickets before boarding the train
- the party did try to buy tickets at Leeds, at the end of their journey, and
- were each issued with a penalty fare for (presumably) £20
- the railway have now written to ask for the penalty fares to be paid.

If this is an accurate account of what happened, and unless there were some special circumstances that meant that a penalty fare shouldn't be issued (contributors have already asked whether the signage at Glasshoughton met the rules), then I think that the railway were within their rights to issue penalty fares. To argue that they shouldn't have done is to ask the railway to show discretion - and it's the nature of discretion that it won't always be exercised in the customer's favour.

As people have commented, there are teenagers out there who routinely fare-dodge. So appealing to the railway's better nature just on the basis of the OP's daughter's age is unlikely to succeed.

That being the case, we need to ask what happens if the penalty fare remains unpaid. My expectation would be that if the penalty fare is ignored, then it will be withdrawn, but replaced with a prosecution. Things might not go that way (again, Northern Railway's desire not to prosecute juveniles has already been quoted) but if they did that would be a much more serious problem than a penalty fare.

I think that what happens next may be different if the penalty fare is appealed - but that's an area that I am hazy on, so I will leave it to others to comment.

 

[WesternLancer]

Hi,

My 14 year old daughter and 2 of her friends (same age) arrived at Glasshoughton station a little later than planned to discover the train was already on the platform. There was a large queue at the ticket machine and none of them have debit cards anyway. Because of the age of these girls they did not think it would be a problem to pay when arriving at Leeds station. Subsequently when they arrived at Leeds they went straight to to the pay desk to purchase return tickets and was told to "go see that guy over there"as they didn't have promise to pay tickets. I would have thought the given the age of these girls (under 16) and their lack of knowledge regarding promise to pay, they would have been lenient seeing as they had gone straight to buy a return ticket.

Good posts above about the legal aspects of this.

I would appeal (I assume nothing to lose by doing so) to a make the point that there was no intention to evade any fare - as demonstrated by daughters action on arrival at Leeds - and mention the service infrequency on the route and thus the reason to get on the train immediately. It may be unsuccessful of course. Point out the age of those concerned and if they rarely travel by train may as well say that.

Perhaps also write in similar terms to Northern Customer Services about it. They may change policy on the way that children who come to the 'Fares to Pay' desk are treated. That may at least help others in future.

I would though have a private conversation with your daughter to ask what she would have done if traveling to a place with no barrier line or exit gate - ie would she have travelled without paying? And if so, would she think that is the right thing to do. But you will know how best to talk to your children about such things and I doubt you need any advice on that!

Good luck with it all.

 

[MotCO]

I think that it is also worthwhile stressing that hopefully your daughter has learnt from this that she always needs to buy a ticket before boarding a train (there are some exceptions, but let's keep it simple). If she does get caught a second time without a valid ticket, the train operating company may treat it more seriously.

 

[Haywain]

I would appeal (I assume nothing to lose by doing so) to a make the point that there was no intention to evade any fare - as demonstrated by daughters action on arrival at Leeds - and mention the service infrequency on the route and thus the reason to get on the train immediately. It may be unsuccessful of course. Point out the age of those concerned and if they rarely travel by train may as well say that.

If the OP is going to appeal it would be far better to do so using valid grounds for appeal, none of which you have listed above.

 

[WesternLancer]

If the OP is going to appeal it would be far better to do so using valid grounds for appeal, none of which you have listed above.

Well, I would agree if they expect to win the appeal (assuming no other valid grounds for appeal than those I have stated), - however, there can be wider reasons for taking actions that you may not necessarily win, in my opinion, unless they cost you money to do.

 

[jp4712]

As it happens, I work about 400 metres from Glasshoughton station so tonight I went for a little look on behalf of the forum.

if, like most people, you approach the station from the north side (facing the Xscape building) then all passengers must pass the sign in the photo - very clear, very prominent. This is at the top of the entrance to the Knottingley-bound platform, and you also have to pass it if walking from the north entrance to the Leeds-bound platform. However! If you approach the station from the south side, the overflow car park, and head for the Leeds-bound platform you do not pass this or any similar notice. I checked the platforms, and the ticket machines, in fact all over the station: there’s the one prominent poster that’s visible to passengers entering from the more popular and likely north side. But if you enter the station from the overflow car park and head to the Leeds-bound platform, you do not have any visibility of a poster.

While I was mooching around the station I heard an automated announcement telling me to buy a ticket or get a ‘promise to pay’ slip, but if the OP’s daughter arrived at the same time as the train their chances of hearing it would be very slim.

click on thumbnail to see full size.

 

[island]

Well, I would agree if they expect to win the appeal (assuming no other valid grounds for appeal than those I have stated), - however, there can be wider reasons for taking actions that you may not necessarily win, in my opinion, unless they cost you money to do.

Not least that a prosecution is barred once an appeal has been resolved, regardless of which way the appeal went.

 

[mmh]

There's an hourly service Saturdays, 2 hourly Sundays. So there's still a queue at the machine when the train is already in when most people would know from the timetable that the service is that infrequent ?

Doesn't sound right from the start. More info needed from the OP.

The OP is here for advice, not criticism. Of course it's possible for there to be a queue for a ticket machine at any time. If there's an hourly service, there are two trains an hour, and if you'd looked at the timetable you'd have noticed the two trains are at the same time.

 

[WesternLancer]

Not least that a prosecution is barred once an appeal has been resolved, regardless of which way the appeal went.

A point very well made. That would influence me if I was the OP (my stance was more motivated by the "well, if they are going to annoy me with this penalty when I've tried to be honest, I'll annoy them by making them pay to process my appeal" line of thinking, I admit)

 

[furlong]

If a station has any entrance without a poster then according to the regulations a PF can't be charged for journeys beginning at that station:

6.—(1) Subject to paragraph (6), a person travelling by, present on, or leaving a train (in this regulation “the passenger”) must not be charged a penalty fare where either paragraph (2) or (3) applies.
(2) This paragraph applies if, at the time when, and at the station where, the passenger boarded the train—
...
(b) the requirements for the display of notices specified in regulation 8 were not satisfied;
...
8.—(1) The requirements for the display of notices are as follows.
(2) Where any entrance onto a platform at the station is not the entrance to, or situated within, a compulsory ticket area, a notice complying with the requirements of paragraph 1 of Part 1 of Schedule 1 (“a standard notice”) must be displayed at that entrance.

 

[jp4712]

If a station has any entrance without a poster then according to the regulations a PF can't be charged for journeys beginning at that station:

I can confirm 100% from my wander around tonight that it’s perfectly possible to enter the station (from the southern entrance) and board a train to Leeds without passing any warning poster.

 

[clagmonster]

Thanks very much @jp4712 most useful
I notice that the poster has the phrase "Please buy your ticket before you travel otherwise you may have to pay a Penalty Fare (at least £20).
The required phrase in the regulations is “Please buy your ticket before you travel otherwise you may be charged a Penalty Fare”

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018

These Regulations make provision for the charging of penalty fares for the failure to produce, when required to do so, a ticket or other authority authorising a person to travel by train or to be present in a compulsory ticket area at a station.

www.legislation.gov.uk

Does the latter phrase appear in the smaller print on the poster, which I am struggling to read on the photograph?

If not, I would advise the passengers in this case to appeal the penalty fare on the basis of the wording on the signage and the point that Furlong has pointed out, that there must be a sign at every entrance to the station. I am sure that learned members of this forum will be able to proofread and appeal letter, although it is important to make sure that the appeal reaches the appeals service within the required 21 days from the issue of the penalty fare notice.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Sep 2020 ==

Thanks for all your replies, I think what I am getting at is the fact that they were not trying to evade paying for a ticket and yes how many teenagers are reading signage when they are with their friends. It is the fact that this seems to be a money making business and reading previous posts, people have appealed and the appeal has gone against them. Obviously my daughter will not be paying the fee as she does not have the money to pay for it.

Thanks very much Sue for coming back.

I do appreciate that they were not trying to evade their fares. A penalty fare is in no way an accusation of intent to avoid paying, much as it must feel like one, it is merely a charge for not having a ticket when you should have one.

The signage is deliberately bright yellow to draw attention to it, but I do appreciate that not everybody will read it, especially when in a rush.

I would encourage your daughter to engage with the process. There is no need to pay the Penalty Fare fir now, so long as the appeal is timely. If she doesn't engage at all, then matters could well get worse.

As you clearly feel that the system is unfair, I would suggest a separate letter to the Northern Customer Experience Centre and perhaps even a letter to your MP making your feelings known and encouraging them to put pressure on the government to change the legislation.

 

[jp4712]

Here’s a close-up of the poster, click on the thumbnail to see at full size.

 

[Nottingham59]

I don't see the legally mandated wording on that poster .... If the 2018 legislation is still current, does that mean that every Penalty Fare that Northern has issued since that poster was introduced is invalid?

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks very much @jp4712 most useful
I notice that the poster has the phrase "Please buy your ticket before you travel otherwise you may have to pay a Penalty Fare (at least £20).
The required phrase in the regulations is “Please buy your ticket before you travel otherwise you may be charged a Penalty Fare”

The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018

These Regulations make provision for the charging of penalty fares for the failure to produce, when required to do so, a ticket or other authority authorising a person to travel by train or to be present in a compulsory ticket area at a station.

www.legislation.gov.uk

Does the latter phrase appear in the smaller print on the poster, which I am struggling to read on the photograph?

If not, I would advise the passengers in this case to appeal the penalty fare on the basis of the wording on the signage and the point that Furlong has pointed out, that there must be a sign at every entrance to the station.

Ref the wording I very much doubt an Appeal would be upheld on that basis. If it wasn't, then your next step is presumably to challenge the basis of the appeal being rejected in a court. Is that likely in this case? I doubt it.

However the lack of signage is a more significant omission. The children could easily have got from street to train without, presumably, passing a sign.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 28 Sep 2020 ==

I don't see the legally mandated wording on that poster .... If the 2018 legislation is still current, does that mean that every Penalty Fare that Northern has issued since that poster was introduced is invalid?

Or, as I suspect, the wording used satisfies the law - bit it may take a court to rule on the matter...