Could we see a return to "essential travel only" messaging?

[TheGrandWazoo]

Thank you, however the Welsh instructions don't seem to quantify what "essential travel is", and the gov.uk reference seems to be what was mandated nationality back in March.

Ok, let me explain.

The gov.uk reference is the LAW - it is the enabling legislation that allows the government to put in place travel restrictions. It does not discriminate.

The Caerphilly one, and it is replicated the other Welsh areas that have restrictions, says "The travel restrictions mean people cannot enter or leave Caerphilly County Borough area without a reasonable excuse – this includes travelling to work, if you are unable to work from home; travelling to and from school if it is outside the borough or making a compassionate visit to a loved one or to give care."

What is doesn't do is restrict travel within the area so you can go shopping, pick up prescriptions etc. However, it does recommend that you again work from home if reasonably practicable.

 

[Whistler40145]

With my job, I cannot work from home

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

With my job, I cannot work from home

In which case, you can travel.

If you're a hairdresser or a carpet fitter or a teaching assistant or whatever else, then you can travel. If you a solicitor or a project manager or an admin clerk and can work from home, then depending on the area, then you should work from home.

AFAIK, in certain areas of South Wales, it is mandated. In the North East, it is guidance. Assuming you're in Lancashire still, then there are no restrictions on travel anyway.

 

[Bantamzen]

Ok, let me explain.

The gov.uk reference is the LAW - it is the enabling legislation that allows the government to put in place travel restrictions. It does not discriminate.

The Caerphilly one, and it is replicated the other Welsh areas that have restrictions, says "The travel restrictions mean people cannot enter or leave Caerphilly County Borough area without a reasonable excuse – this includes travelling to work, if you are unable to work from home; travelling to and from school if it is outside the borough or making a compassionate visit to a loved one or to give care."

What is doesn't do is restrict travel within the area so you can go shopping, pick up prescriptions etc. However, it does recommend that you again work from home if reasonably practicable.

So what defines a "reasonable excuse"? You linked to the original emergency powers legislation, but failed to realise that that list was not exhaustive.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

So what defines a "reasonable excuse"? You linked to the original emergency powers legislation, but failed to realise that that list was not exhaustive.

The legislation says:

Restrictions on movement
6.—(1) During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need—

....and then it lists what is reasonable excuse. That list is extensive and, by definition, if something is not included, it is not deemed essential.

 

[Bantamzen]

The legislation says:

Restrictions on movement
6.—(1) During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need—

and then it lists what is reasonable excuse.

"Includes the need", not exhaustive.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

"Includes the need", not exhaustive.

I was amending as you posted. A "reasonable excuse" includes the need, and they are then listed. If it's not listed, then it's not deemed essential. That's what the law states.

 

[Whistler40145]

I was amending as you posted. A reasonable excuses includes the need, and they are then listed. If it's not listed, then it's not deemed essential. That's what the law states.

Does this only relate to areas where travel is restricted?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Does this only relate to areas where travel is restricted?

Yes.

So in South Wales, it is legally enforceable, as the WG have stated. In England, as far as I can recall, it is only guidance and then only in the North East.

However, should the government say that they are reimposing travel restrictions in the North, then the legislation provides that ability to do so. That is possible but unlikely at the moment; they are hoping that the limited measures on family meetings and other areas will prove to be sufficient.

 

[Whistler40145]

Yes.

So in South Wales, it is legally enforceable, as the WG have stated. In England, as far as I can recall, it is only guidance and then only in the North East.

However, should the government say that they are reimposing travel restrictions in the North, then the legislation provides that ability to do so. That is possible but unlikely at the moment; they are hoping that the limited measures on family meetings and other areas will prove to be sufficient.

Much appreciated to make it clearer

 

[Bantamzen]

I was amending as you posted. A "reasonable excuse" includes the need, and they are then listed. If it's not listed, then it's not deemed essential. That's what the law states.

Includes, as in the definition "comprise or contain as part of a whole". The list was not meant to be exhaustive, nor could it be.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The legislation says:

Restrictions on movement
6.—(1) During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2) For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need—

....and then it lists what is reasonable excuse. That list is extensive and, by definition, if something is not included, it is not deemed essential.

With respect, you wouldn't make a very good lawyer. You'll note:

a reasonable excuse includes the need

Which means there is scope for other reasonable excuses as well, which would be down to the Police Officer involved (and the judiciary, if you decided to take your day in Court) to determine.

The listed items are reasonable excuses but don't exclude the possibility of other ones.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Includes, as in the definition "comprise or contain as part of a whole". The list was not meant to be exhaustive, nor could it be.

Naturally, they would just include a variety of options.... They'd put in 13 different clauses with additional sub-clauses but then gave up?

With respect, you wouldn't make a very good lawyer. You'll note:



Which means there is scope for other reasonable excuses as well, which would be down to the Police Officer involved (and the judiciary, if you decided to take your day in Court) to determine.

The listed items are reasonable excuses but don't exclude the possibility of other ones.

Thanks for the careers advice.

This says what authorities can do and underpins the rules that are then mandated. There is nothing that says that these are rules "without limitation" nor is there any "catch all" clause. Nor is there the ability to extend the restrictions on travel.

Now should you wish to put forward an alternative "reasonable excuse" then of course, you have the right to have your day in court.

However, the idea that anyone can put forward llama photography, badger grooming or whatever else as reasons for travel as the list isn't exhaustive is frankly unlikely.

 

[Bantamzen]

Naturally, they would just include a variety of options.... They'd put in 13 different clauses with additional sub-clauses but then gave up?



Thanks for the careers advice.

This says what authorities can do and underpins the rules that are then mandated. There is nothing that says that these are rules "without limitation" nor is there any "catch all" clause. Nor is there the ability to extend the restrictions on travel.

Now should you wish to put forward an alternative "reasonable excuse" then of course, you have the right to have your day in court.

However, the idea that anyone can put forward llama photography, badger grooming or whatever else as reasons for travel as the list isn't exhaustive is frankly unlikely.

The use of the word "includes" is very important, as explained to you above.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The use of the word "includes" is very important, as explained to you above.

Well I’m sure you can advise when you legally challenge this having been stopped from travelling because of a further restriction to your non exhaustive list!

 

[Bantamzen]

Well I’m sure you can advise when you legally challenge this having been stopped from travelling because of a further restriction to your non exhaustive list!

Well you'll be waiting a long time, because it won't happen.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Well you'll be waiting a long time, because it won't happen.

I know

 

[VauxhallandI]

What if you only break the law in a small and measured fashion........

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

What if you only break the law in a small and measured fashion........

In a "specific and technical way" as per Brandon Lewis's statement? I'm sure that the local constabulary and the judiciary are right on board with that!!

However, those laws become judgement calls if you're driving from one end of the country to the other with suspected Covid and you happen to be the PM's Svengali.

 

[trainophile]

I know Merseyrail are saying essential travel only, and Northern seemed to be indicating the same on the overhead departure board display yesterday at Wigan, but is there a list of all the TOCs that are taking this approach? I am still booking on WMT, Avanti and a bit of unavoidable Northern, but wondering who else I can use or should be avoiding.

 

[nedchester]

I know Merseyrail are saying essential travel only, and Northern seemed to be indicating the same on the overhead departure board display yesterday at Wigan, but is there a list of all the TOCs that are taking this approach? I am still booking on WMT, Avanti and a bit of unavoidable Northern, but wondering who else I can use or should be avoiding.

Merseyrail can say what they like but they can’t stop anyone. I for one may well be using them this weekend.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Merseyrail can say what they like but they can’t stop anyone. I for one may well be using them this weekend.

I would be amazed if their "rentathugs" were not charging round the place asking people for the reason for their journey. Any cases of that yet?

 

[trainophile]

I was asked during the last period, middle of June. He was quite pleasant but it put me on the spot as I was only going to see my sister in Formby.

 

[nedchester]

I would be amazed if their "rentathugs" were not charging round the place asking people for the reason for their journey. Any cases of that yet?

Not heard anything yet but I may find out as they are my local network. If they ask me I will politely tell them it’s none of their business.

 

[adc82140]

Or just lie to them. "I'm going to work". They can't challenge that.

 

[Huntergreed]

Or just lie to them. "I'm going to work". They can't challenge that.

Were they asking for documents in the original lockdown?

 

[adc82140]

What sort of documents? I suppose you could carry your work ID card, but that's no proof you're actually going there.

Also, providing essential care to a vulnerable person doesn't have any sort of documentation.

 

[nedchester]

Or just lie to them. "I'm going to work". They can't challenge that.

Why lie to them. They need to know they are not entitled to ask such questions.

 

[Anonymous10]

I don't think in Wales it ever changed from essential only

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't think in Wales it ever changed from essential only

It did, but it seems briefly.