Will there every be new Passenger Transport Executives created?

[thenorthern]

Earlier today I was having a conversation with someone about Passenger Transport Executives. Currently there are 9 PTEs in Merseyside, West Yorkshire, Tyne and Wear, Strathclyde, Greater Manchester, Greater London, the West Midlands County, South Yorkshire and Edinburgh. All of them were created in the 1970s.

One thing we were wondering though is will any new PTEs ever be created? There is no doubt that PTEs have helped rail transport in the areas they represent so it would make sense to create more in large urban areas that don't have them.

The most obvious one we thought of was Bristol as the Bristol Travel to Work area has a population of over a million however given how unpopular the former County of Avon was it would be very difficult to create something for the area.

 

[markymark2000]

Earlier today I was having a conversation with someone about Passenger Transport Executives. Currently there are 9 PTEs in Merseyside, West Yorkshire, Tyne and Wear, Strathclyde, Greater Manchester, Greater London, the West Midlands County, South Yorkshire and Edinburgh. All of them were created in the 1970s.

One thing we were wondering though is will any new PTEs ever be created? There is no doubt that PTEs have helped rail transport in the areas they represent so it would make sense to create more in large urban areas that don't have them.

The most obvious one we thought of was Bristol as the Bristol Travel to Work area has a population of over a million however given how unpopular the former County of Avon was it would be very difficult to create something for the area.

I would hope that more aren't created simply because each one wastes a LOT of money and in general ends up getting millions but only thousands spent on meaningful services as money is wasted on things very few people want and need. Even the best PTE, in my opinion, Merseytravel, wastes thousands on buses just to satisfy councillors and spends around £25,000 on free Christmas Day buses (At least 2 of which carry zero passengers as I know the drivers who do them).
While each PTE can bring some benefits to the railways, generally this is in the form of more empty trains which are put on again, to satisfy a limited amount of people.

PTEs by and large are full of people who are paid an awful lot but zero clue what they are doing. They are a drain on the public purse in many cases and more money is wasted on subsidising silly fares to get the mayors a good name rather than on actual services people want or improvements to infrastructure. Each PTE looks good on face value to the normal customer but when you delve into it, it's very poor and they overly micromanage for the sake of bureaucracy. PTEs also tend to kick off and winge for franchising because they are control freaks and like to throw their toys out of the pram when bus operators won't let them have their own way. Heres some examples of PTEs in action. 5MPH speed limit in Manchester bus stations which is enforced by speed cameras. Bus companies are told which entrance to use at certain bus stations (Ie Middleton, there are 2 entrances but each route has to use certain entrances). In most PTE areas, you get fined if you pick up from the wrong bus stand so you either get fined or block the bus station waiting for your stand. South Yorkshire and TFGM overly subsidising young people fares to such a level that the subsidised fare is cheaper than the commercial fares. Strathclyde.... I advise you look at the thread in the Bus section to see how poor they are. West Yorkshire just keep building bus stations for the sake of building bus stations. TFL Can't plan buses for toffee and is very much a dictatorship. Passengers will go where we want them to go, not where they want to go. Their customer service is similar is dismal and there is zero will in the world to move into the 21st century.

Each PTE has it's pros but there are a lot of cons. The cons generally revolve around money and them having too much of it and not being able to spend it in a way which is useful to the majority of current passengers and encouraging new passengers. Do you really want more organisations draining the public purse and more bigheaded mayors dictating how buses should be ran because they are being funded by people who dislike private companies? I know I don't!

 

[30907]

Leaving aside the claimed misdeeds of said authorities, the problem as always is boundaries.
For example, there seems to be a fair bit of commuting into Bristol from SE Wales - how do you cover that?
Exeter-Torbay might work - but Devon CC seem to an outsider to be doing a good job, and you would have to include Barnstaple anyway, so leave well alone.
Greater Edinburgh might possibly work, but I don't know my Scottish politics.
So my short answer would be "probably not."

 

[bluenoxid]

West Yorkshire just keep building bus stations for the sake of building bus stations.

Please could you expand on this comment?

 

[thenorthern]

Leaving aside the claimed misdeeds of said authorities, the problem as always is boundaries.
For example, there seems to be a fair bit of commuting into Bristol from SE Wales - how do you cover that?
Exeter-Torbay might work - but Devon CC seem to an outsider to be doing a good job, and you would have to include Barnstaple anyway, so leave well alone.
Greater Edinburgh might possibly work, but I don't know my Scottish politics.
So my short answer would be "probably not."

Commuter belt has always been the case with PTEs though as for example Tamworth has a lot of residents who work in Birmingham but it's not part of the West Midlands PTE. Warrington has a lot of residents who work in Liverpool and Manchester but it's not covered by Merseytravel or the Greater Manchester PTE.

 

[YorksLad12]

I'd query your initial list (the Passenger Transport Executives Group, now the Urban Transport Group, didn't have nine members) - but the simple answer is "probably not" as most of the PTEs are being merged, subsumed and reverse-takeovered with/by Combined Authorities. We're more likely to see CAs with a transport function than a true PTE.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

I'd query your initial list (the Passenger Transport Executives Group, now the Urban Transport Group, didn't have nine members) - but the simple answer is "probably not" as most of the PTEs are being merged, subsumed and reverse-takeovered with/by Combined Authorities. We're more likely to see CAs with a transport function than a true PTE.

Indeed. My understanding (and someone will hopefully be along to be definitive) is that it was one for each Metropolitan County (6, all in England) and Strathclyde. London Transport / Transport for London (etc) is similar but different and I am not aware of anything for Edinburgh.

 

[markymark2000]

Please could you expand on this comment?

It's the point that almost everywhere in West Yorkshire has proper bus stations. It's not always a bad thing but they do put a lot of money into bus stations. The bus stations are then only open during the day so at night, buses have use other stops.

 

[30907]

The bus stations are then only open during the day so at night, buses have use other stops.

Which ones? Bradford and Keighley are definitely open till close down, Leeds too AFAIK.

 

[markymark2000]

Which ones? Bradford and Keighley are definitely open till close down, Leeds too AFAIK.

Leeds closes I think at midnight. Transdevs night buses and Megabuses use stop F5 on York Street.
Bradford similarly I think closes at midnight with late buses (when they return) and coaches using the Hall Ings.

 

[YorksLad12]

Which ones? Bradford and Keighley are definitely open till close down, Leeds too AFAIK.

Some stations (Heckmondwyke?) 'close' in the evenings because service levels drop off; they have one stand open for those services that do call, but the stand is accessible from the public footpath rather than by entering the bus station.

 

[30907]

Leeds closes I think at midnight. Transdevs night buses and Megabuses use stop F5 on York Street.
Bradford similarly I think closes at midnight with late buses (when they return) and coaches using the Hall Ings.

Fair point - I was going by departures, and it makes sense to lock up the buildings overnight. I understood something more drastic by "open during the day," something like the Heckmondwike example.

 

[thenorthern]

Looking at the map and population statistics some others that would sort of make sense would be a South Hampshire PTE although the fact that Southampton and Portsmouth are separate unitary authorities to the rest of Hampshire would prevent this.

An East Midlands cities (Nottingham, Leicester and Derby) PTE but again having separate Unitary Authorities as enclaves within two tier counties would make this difficult.

Teesside and Humberside PTEs would sort of make sense however the unpopularity of the former Humberside and Cleveland counties would prevent this in a similar way to a Bristol/Avon PTE would struggle.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Looking at the map and population statistics some others that would sort of make sense would be a South Hampshire PTE although the fact that Southampton and Portsmouth are separate unitary authorities to the rest of Hampshire would prevent this.

Would it? Just requires them to talk to each other. Merseyside County Council hasn't been a thing for years, the boroughs (or whatever they are called) are basically independent.

 

[Chester1]

Would it? Just requires them to talk to each other. Merseyside County Council hasn't been a thing for years, the boroughs (or whatever they are called) are basically independent.

The district councils created in 1974 were short lived and were replaced by borough councils in 1986 but they chose to share some services e.g. Merseytravel, Police and Fire Brigade. I doubt there will be any new PTEs in a literal sense but there is nothing to stop a Combined Authority taking equivalent powers over transport. Combined Authorities can include a mixture of unitary and county council areas because their powers are devolved from central government not taken from their member councils. Hampshire could have a Combined Authority including the county + distrcouncil and unitary Authorities and receive PTE equivalent powers and funding. The government is encouraging county and district councils to replace themselves with Unitary Authorities e.g. Lancashire but its not a requirement to form a Combined Authority.

 

[YorksLad12]

Looking at the map and population statistics some others that would sort of make sense would be a South Hampshire PTE although the fact that Southampton and Portsmouth are separate unitary authorities to the rest of Hampshire would prevent this.

An East Midlands cities (Nottingham, Leicester and Derby) PTE but again having separate Unitary Authorities as enclaves within two tier counties would make this difficult.

Teesside and Humberside PTEs would sort of make sense however the unpopularity of the former Humberside and Cleveland counties would prevent this in a similar way to a Bristol/Avon PTE would struggle.

Tees Valley Combined Authority covers Tees-side, doesn't it?
South Hampshire PTE would have been governed by South Hampshire ITA, which might have caused a few problems...

 

[thenorthern]

Would it? Just requires them to talk to each other. Merseyside County Council hasn't been a thing for years, the boroughs (or whatever they are called) are basically independent.

Tees Valley Combined Authority covers Tees-side, doesn't it?
South Hampshire PTE would have been governed by South Hampshire ITA, which might have caused a few problems...

The existing PTEs are in Metropolitan counties with Metropolitan Boroughs where their mandate from Westminster includes a requirement to work together on a PTE. Metropolitan Boroughs are for most things Unitary Authorities except for in Transport.

With the Tees Valley Mayor however it's area is separate Unitary Authorities covering the former county of Cleveland and Darlington.

In South Hampshire Southampton and Portsmouth are separate Unitary Authorities while Eastleigh, Fareham and Gosport are districts within Hampshire County Council.

 

[Chester1]

The existing PTEs are in Metropolitan counties with Metropolitan Boroughs where their mandate from Westminster includes a requirement to work together on a PTE. Metropolitan Boroughs are for most things Unitary Authorities except for in Transport.

With the Tees Valley Mayor however it's area is separate Unitary Authorities covering the former county of Cleveland and Darlington.

In South Hampshire Southampton and Portsmouth are separate Unitary Authorities while Eastleigh, Fareham and Gosport are districts within Hampshire County Council.

Nothing stopping a Hampshire Combined Authority either retaining the current councils or creating unitary authorities. South Hampshire only would probably require the break up of the County and Council areas. Hampshire CC, Southampton and Portsmouth population is 1.8 million which is a decent size for a Combined Authority (Slightly more than Liverpool City Region, which is the 5 boroughs of Merseyside plus Halton).

 

[thenorthern]

Nothing stopping a Hampshire Combined Authority either retaining the current councils or creating unitary authorities. South Hampshire only would probably require the break up of the County and Council areas. Hampshire CC, Southampton and Portsmouth population is 1.8 million which is a decent size for a Combined Authority (Slightly more than Liverpool City Region, which is the 5 boroughs of Merseyside plus Halton).

Liverpool City Region is slightly different to Hampshire. Merseyside has been a Metropolitan County since 1974 and Halton has been a separate Unitary Authority to the rest of Cheshire since 1998. Hampshire is governed very differently.

 

[Mojo]

There are only six PTEs, these correspond with the six former metropolitan county council areas (West Midlands, Merseyside, West Yorkshire, South Yorkshire, Tyne & Wear, and Greater Manchester). Strathclyde/Greater Glasgow could be counted as a former PTE, but kept its initialism and was rebranded a transport partnership in line with Scottish policy at the time.

I would argue that it is not the act of having a PTE that has brought around many of the benefits, but having a sub-regional local authority to co-ordinate arrangements for local transport. In the example of the one you have given, Greater Bristol, one of these already de-facto exists, as part of the West of England Combined authority.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Fair point - I was going by departures, and it makes sense to lock up the buildings overnight. I understood something more drastic by "open during the day," something like the Heckmondwike example.

Heckmondwike "Bus Hub" is just a selection of shelters on a loop around an open pedestrian plaza, so it certainly doesn't close at night because there's nothing to close! I assume you're thinking of Cleckheaton, which is a similar size and design to a number of the smaller bus stations in West Yorkshire (Batley for example).

 

[YorksLad12]

Heckmondwike "Bus Hub" is just a selection of shelters on a loop around an open pedestrian plaza, so it certainly doesn't close at night because there's nothing to close! I assume you're thinking of Cleckheaton, which is a similar size and design to a number of the smaller bus stations in West Yorkshire (Batley for example).

That was me getting confused, not 30907. I wouldn't mind but I helped open both of them on the day