Moratorium on all TfL funding to pay for regions?

[Waverley125]

Just a thought

Londonhas had crossrail (£34bn), thameslink (a lot), 378s, new Sub-surface stock and basically a ****load of transport improvements in the last few years. Is it not time to say enough is enough, and remove all TfL funding except for maintenance, and use this money to pay for developments elsewhere?

Just a few thoughts of what we could do (mainly centred around Leeds, as that's where I am):

-New stations at Armley Canal Rd, Kirkstall Abbey, Kirkstall Forge, Calverley Bridge, Apperley Bridge, Neville Hill, Horsforth Woodside, Elland Rd, Hunslet, Stourton, Wortley, Armley Moor, Laisterdyke, Bowling, Low Moor, Siddal, Hipperholme, Elland, Manningham & White Rose Centre.

-Electrification of Leeds-Harrogate-York-Leeds, Leeds-Huddersfield, Leeds-Bradford-Halifax-Huddersfield, Wakefield-Moorthorpe-Sheffield, Leeds-Castleford-Pontefract-Knottingley-Goole and Leeds-Wakefield-Barnsley-Sheffield

-Electrification of Liverpool-Wrexham, Guide Bridge-Huddersfield, and Stockport-Buxton

-Further terminating platforms, Southern & southeastern entrances & renovated concourse at Leeds City

-Bradford Crossrail & reinstatement of Bowling curve

thoughts?

 

[142094]

AFAIK all new capital spending by Metro in West Yorkshire is on hold until the spending review in the autumn, that includes new stations, the NGT and Leeds southern entrance. Kirkstall Forge should get funds as a lot is coming from a developer as part of a S106 agreement. Not so sure about Apperley Bridge and East Leeds Parkway. Leeds - Harrogate - York will not get electrified anytime soon, this was supposed to be a condidate for tram-trains as well. I also doubt anything such as a Bradford Crossrail will be forthcoming anytime soon.

However I do agree with you, a lot more money should be coming north.

 

[deltic]

Crossrail costs £15bn of which only a third comes from central government - the rest is raised by local busiensses and fare payers.

If cities like Leeds are serious about funding new infrastrucutre they have to get the same committment from businesses and residents. Which means some form of road pricing and local business tax supplement - the days of going to Whitehall with a begging bowl expecting everying to be paid for by the taxpayer are long gone.

 

[atomicdanny]

There is one thing that I don't like is when people keep calling London, the South East (not the op in this case), in most cases the services have become worse because of HS1 with routes now taking longer than before while only a select few have the benefits.

Also is it fair that the South East has the highest fair rises of the entire country? (i.e. southeastern)

While I do agree with any improvement of the rail network, the only problem is its the public that will have to pay for it and as soon as this part is mentioned no one wants to know. (e.g. increasing ticket prices to cover the costs of all of this, such as South Easterns Fares)

So if you had your way you would cancel crossrail, thameslink and any other project in London just to put money else where, London and the South East does also suffer from a lot of overcrowding and does actually need some of these projects...

Just to note I do think more money should be spent in the north and in wales where these pacers are (in fact I believe these should have been replaced already). I also think that some of these rail companies should also take more responsibilities and improve things as well. I do agree though that certain parts of the north do need a lot more investing including Leeds but you can't say that the north gets nothing (Class 185s? Scotland - new Class 380s and new lines)

Personally though i believe that one answer would be to find a safe replacement for all those pacers that are running around the west, and the northern parts as well as longer trains for cross country routes but I doubt that will ever happen some how.

 

[thelem]

Is it not time to say enough is enough, and remove all TfL funding except for maintenance, and use this money to pay for developments elsewhere?

No. If a cost-benefit analysis says that the best value schemes are in london and the south east, then they should continue to get investment.

 

[yorksrob]

As someone who's lived and worked in the North for some time but who grew up in and still regularly travels aroud NSE land, I have sympathies with both arguments.

With London being the major income generator and having by far the most challenging task in getting people to and from work, it's right and necessary that the South East should get the lions share of investment.

That said, I remember reading on this very forum that government spending on public transport per head of population is already considerably higher in the South East than in Yorkshire for example, and I would be extremely annoyed if major projects in the North were sacrificed without there being a long hard look at whether costs could be controlled on major projects such as Thameslink and Crossrail, whilst accepting that they are in themselves vital.

The problem is, this already seems to be happening, for example, I've read that the London Bridge remodelling might be scaled down a bit, and that Crossrail might have the odd branch lopped off, at least until later, which seems a sensible way to share the pain. Unfortunately, it's not at all clear whether these savings will go towards allowing a scaled down version of some of the projects outside London to go ahead such as the Northern hub, and a respectable proportion of the new carriages needed in the Northern area, or whether they will just be sucked up by the Government who will then just cancel the majority of projects in the Regions anyway.

With regards to rolling stock, there should be no replacement of rolling stock for the time being unless it is either completely life expired, or there is the ability to cascade elsewhere.

Additional post - I also agree with Atomicdanny's point that many people in Kent, particularly Western Kent seem to have been stuck with a poorer service (e.g the Maidstone East line) whilst having to pay larger fare increases. I suspect that this is because it has received a lot of investment which has had to be added on as an afterthought to a project which was not designed primarily with Kent residents in mind.

 

[Metroland]

Capital spending is but operating subsidy is the most in the North, Scotland and Wales.

With an extra few million people due in the SE over the next decade or so, and with house prices being what they are, the investment is needed.

Yes new pacer replacement trains are needed in the north, but the there isn't the pressure of house prices for commutes.

 

[yorksrob]

Capital spending is but operating subsidy is the most in the North, Scotland and Wales.

Thanks for clarifying the reference.

TBH I've come to the conclusion that even Pacer replacement isn't particularly important at the moment, but they should certainly invest in some extra carriages one way or another.

 

[Metroland]

I guess the bottom line is it depends what the nation's priorities are. I'm just about to pay a tax bill myself, so I was a bit bored and worked out what each £1000 actually goes to.

Out of every £1000 tax, you are paying

£61.07: towards the nation's debt
£31.25: Transport system, of which £7.10 goes to the rail network
£278.40: Social protection aka welfare/pensions
£46.87: Personal/social care
£173.29: Health
£126.42: Education
£56.81: Defence
£28.40: Industry and agriculture
£38.35: Housing/environment
£51.13: Public order/police
£105.11: other

So times that by 8-12 to find out what the average person is paying toward each. I guess the argument people outside London don't use rail so much, 45% not at all. Having said that, I'm not sure how far that one washes as I don't use the education system (these days) or quite a few of the above.

 

[barrykas]

Just a thought

Londonhas had crossrail (£34bn), thameslink (a lot), 378s, new Sub-surface stock and basically a ****load of transport improvements in the last few years. Is it not time to say enough is enough, and remove all TfL funding except for maintenance, and use this money to pay for developments elsewhere?

Have you taken a look at TfL's Accounts recently?

For the year to 31st March 2010, TfL's Revenue came to £3.6bn, total grants and GLA-related income came to £1.4bn, and base Expenditure was £5.3bn, giving an overall DEFICIT for the year of £1.2bn, against a SURPLUS of £275.7m for the year to 31st March 2009.

Lose all Government funding, and they'd be even more stuffed than they already are!

Cheers,

Barry

 

[yorksrob]

I guess the bottom line is it depends what the nation's priorities are. I'm just about to pay a tax bill myself, so I was a bit bored and worked out what each £1000 actually goes to.

Out of every £1000 tax, you are paying

£61.07: towards the nation's debt
£31.25: Transport system, of which £7.10 goes to the rail network
£278.40: Social protection aka welfare/pensions
£46.87: Personal/social care
£173.29: Health
£126.42: Education
£56.81: Defence
£28.40: Industry and agriculture
£38.35: Housing/environment
£51.13: Public order/police
£105.11: other

So times that by 8-12 to find out what the average person is paying toward each. I guess the argument people outside London don't use rail so much, 45% not at all. Having said that, I'm not sure how far that one washes as I don't use the education system (these days) or quite a few of the above.

Wow, compared to that lot the railway looks cheap at the price! Shame it's always seen as an easy target.

 

[Kneedown]

No. If a cost-benefit analysis says that the best value schemes are in london and the south east, then they should continue to get investment.

So you'd be quite happy if everywhere north of Watford was to become a barren wasteland while the shandy drinking southeast continues to get the cream?
The people of the north contribute just as much to this country as those in the south.

 

[Greenback]

It used to be the industrial and manufacturing areas of the UK that created the wealth. Once the economy moved towards financial and service industries in the South East, other regions have been neglected.

 

[Barn]

The people of the north contribute just as much to this country as those in the south.

Can you substantiate that statement with figures?

 

[Waverley125]

If cities like Leeds are serious about funding new infrastrucutre they have to get the same committment from businesses and residents. Which means some form of road pricing and local business tax supplement - the days of going to Whitehall with a begging bowl expecting everying to be paid for by the taxpayer are long gone.

Public spending on transport in London & SE is 3 times what it is in Yorkshire. Southern railways are generally:

-electrified
-new
-frequent

which allows them to develop the commuter network London has. The reason there isn't a huge Harrogate-Leeds commuter market is because none of the well off Harrogations want to ride in already sardine-tinesque 144 for 40 minutes into Leeds, and would much rather drive (as the mile long traffic jams on Harrogate Road would seem to confirm).

Getting Yorkshire anywhere near the level of the SE would have to involve new turbostars on the Harrogate, Pontefract, Hallam, Huddersfield and Caldervale line stoppers, doubling train lengths and speed upgrades on the TP mainline (so they can maintain a 60mph average on a 45 mile, 2 stop journey); and increasing frequency to quarter-hourly on those lines.

 

[atomicdanny]

Public spending on transport in London & SE is 3 times what it is in Yorkshire. Southern railways are generally:

-electrified
-new
-frequent

Getting Yorkshire anywhere near the level of the SE would have to involve new turbostars on the Harrogate, Pontefract, Hallam, Huddersfield and Caldervale line stoppers, doubling train lengths and speed upgrades on the TP mainline (so they can maintain a 60mph average on a 45 mile, 2 stop journey); and increasing frequency to quarter-hourly on those lines.

Not the whole of the south is electified though, there are gaps in the south east (but since you said southern meaning the south, the south west still has a lot of old stock as well as does wales) but then again a lot of that new stock was needed at the time with the trains being over 40 years old at the time, would you have rathered that the South and South east still had slam door stock (which is a couple of decades older than the pacers) and all the money spent up north? Or let London Collapse on itself with no funding for the transport at all, which is what you have implied by taking all the funding away.

While I do agree that the pacers need to be well replaced (and given to top gear to use instead of caravans!), the only problem is that the DFT seem to love them so much! I know that it probably looks like I hate the north but that is very much far away from the truth, since I also think that all of the country deserves more including a lot more stock and replacements for the 142s, 143s, 144s, 150s, 153s, 155s and 156s as well as the 314s, 318s, and anything similar of that age (I would have said 313s but I would probably get shouted at for that since they are in london....)

Also what i don't think is fair is that the south east gets the highest fair rises to pay for HS1 but some people up north would rather the south pay and get nothing at all... (I know that is a bit exagerated but there are a few people that actually think that, I've met them) Sometimes I think that the only way some people in the north will be happy is if all the funding was taken completely away from the south and basically left to rot with no funding for even repairs!

You say about the traffic into Leeds but no offence London is just as bad for this as well though, there are all of two main roads that cross the river in east london (the A282 (M25) Dartford Crossing and the Blackwall tunnel). The reason why London has a lot more transport is because these were built over a 100 years ago not because of something today (except for two or three lines) and does actually need them when the area has a lot more people than the leeds area, no offence. You say that the north gets nothing, so Manchester Metrolink isn't getting bigger? Apparently some expansion plans for the Sheffield Trams and not forgetting all of the scottish new lines and the trams in Edinburgh

So you'd be quite happy if everywhere north of Watford was to become a barren wasteland while the shandy drinking southeast continues to get the cream?
The people of the north contribute just as much to this country as those in the south.

No offence but you make it sound like the South East gets everything and everyone in the south thinks that the north are well scum... which isn't true, it doesn't there are several lines which have been left closed as well as someparts of the south that have been given worse trains (e.g. the Southern 377s on the Eastcoastway were sent upto London and replaced with 313s), so i think that you will find that its London that's getting most of the funds and not the south east (HS1 shouldn't count because that was for the Eurostar and connecting to europe)

I thought that I should add this everything is the DFTs fault...

 

[yorksrob]

would you have rathered that the South and South east still had slam door stock

Ha ha, I would - but I suppose I am a slammer fanatic.

TBH the phase 2 CIG's were only 35 years old on withdrawal (and some of the VEP's younger).

That said Thameslink and Crossrail need to be sorted.

 

[atomicdanny]

Ha ha, I would - but I suppose I am a slammer fanatic.

TBH the phase 2 CIG's were only 35 years old on withdrawal (and some of the VEP's younger).

That said Thameslink and Crossrail need to be sorted.

I miss the Slam door stock as well (they look far better than the 375s), although mainly because that was what I grew up with (BR Blue/Grey and Network South East) and of course the 365s when they were running on 3rd rails

 

[yorksrob]

I miss the Slam door stock as well (they look far better than the 375s), although mainly because that was what I grew up with (BR Blue/Grey and Network South East) and of course the 365s when they were running on 3rd rails

Indeed, jolly fine trains - although I quite like the Electrostars as well!

Having grown up in Ashford, I think a lot of the time the South East is automatically assumed to be a wealthy suburb of London when infact large parts have their own problems and require investment in their own right.

 

[Kneedown]

Can you substantiate that statement with figures?

I don't need to. The fact is, we ALL pay our taxes!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

No offence but you make it sound like the South East gets everything and everyone in the south thinks that the north are well scum... which isn't true, it doesn't there are several lines which have been left closed as well as someparts of the south that have been given worse trains (e.g. the Southern 377s on the Eastcoastway were sent upto London and replaced with 313s), so i think that you will find that its London that's getting most of the funds and not the south east (HS1 shouldn't count because that was for the Eurostar and connecting to europe)

I thought that I should add this everything is the DFTs fault...

I know not everyone in the SE, London included, thinks that anyone north of Watford (Or west of Reading maybe) are scum, but a fair proportion do seem to think we all live in terraced miners cottages, wear flat caps and breed whippets. My post was directed at the poster who seemed to imply that London is the only place that matters when it comes to investment. Whether that was the intention or just the way the post was worded i know not, i can only take it in the context that i percieved, and if mistaken i will apologise unreservedly.
No one can deny however, that London does recieve a huge amount of funding while the rest of the Country has to make do and mend. Some of it entirely justified, like HS1, but others are more questionable such as Crossrail and Thameslink. Whether the forthcoming cuts will change that is anybodys guess, but i fear that they won't.
Like i said in my previous post, we all pay our taxes, and so all of us deserve to see some benefit.