Will we see mass protests against authoritarianism and Covid19 restrictions?

[Bletchleyite]

Probably.

The bar is set so low that pretty much any former PM is likely to hsve managed the situation better than Johnson.

I'm intrigued to think how the toothy liar (Tony Blair) would have managed it. He'd probably have considered COVID a WMD (let's give it some credit, at least COVID exists unlike those alleged WMDs), bombed China and had us all nuked to smithereens.

 

[takno]

Probably.

The bar is set so low that pretty much any former PM is likely to hsve managed the situation better than Johnson.

I think even Eden would have made a better job of it, in spite of having been dead for decades

 

[bramling]

I'm intrigued to think how the toothy liar (Tony Blair) would have managed it. He'd probably have considered COVID a WMD (let's give it some credit, at least COVID exists unlike those alleged WMDs), bombed China and had us all nuked to smithereens.

One way or other Blair’s comms would have been in a different league.

I’ve visions of emotional speeches with a fake tear shed every sentence - like the Cherie Blair “my son ... in his first year at university ... living away from home ... “ one!

I think by now we’d still have some semblance of being in control of the situation, instead of Boris who seems to have completely lost it. I suspect Blair would have managed to avoid a week in intensive care too.

 

[brad465]

Wouldn’t Corbyn have had to shield? Though I can imagine him playing the hero and attending the Durham Miners’ Gala anyway! Meanwhile we’d have had John McDonnell and Diane Abbott running through show. Hmm...

I was thinking to myself this afternoon how I so wish Mrs. Thatcher was at the helm.

In some ways Corbyn was probably spared winning; I believe he would have handled it better but all the spending that Sunak has been doing, had it been under Corbyn's watch, would have been attacked like there was no tomorrow, along with every other aspect of the response; for some it may have been unbearable.

As for Thatcher I have bizarrely recently wished she was still alive, because she would have issued many scathing statements of the current Tory party makeup and either knocked their popularity down and/or forced them to act more responsibly. The fact her own quotes have been used against the party's actions over the internal market bill tells you everything about what they're like now compared to in the past.

 

[43066]

Wouldn’t Corbyn have had to shield? Though I can imagine him playing the hero and attending the Durham Miners’ Gala anyway! Meanwhile we’d have had John McDonnell and Diane Abbott running through show. Hmm...

Quite possibly. Corbyn should already be in a nursing home, by the look of him. McDonnel is fit only for a lunatic asylum, Abbott looks (and speaks) as if she’s already been dead for at least a decade, but has been dug up and somehow brought back to life, to utter yet more nonsense!

I was thinking to myself this afternoon how I so wish Mrs. Thatcher was at the helm.

I just watched the Bruges speach online, in its entirety. Now there’s some impressive oration. My brand of Euroscepticism has been perfectly captured, right there.

It’s available on YouTube - 11:45 onwards, she captures it perfectly for me, my God she was good.

 

[Mag_seven]

I’d certainly wish for someone with a science background at this point. She was also capable of delivering inspirational speeches, something which wouldn’t go amiss at the moment.

Not only did she have a scientific background but she had a scrupulous attention to detail. Almost certainly she would have scrutinised to the nth degree any proposals that Whitty or Vallance came up with and would not implement them if she was not 100% happy with the scientific rational behind them.

 

[bramling]

I just watched the Bruges speach online, in its entirety. Now there’s some impressive oration. My brand of Euroscepticism has been perfectly captured, right there.

It’s available on YouTube - 11:45 onwards, she captures it perfectly for me, my God she was good.

Different league, that’s all there is to say.

 

[43066]

Different league, that’s all there is to say.

Whenever I feel bad about the state of the Tory party, I break out the above signature, from “The Path to Power”, authored by Maggie herself, a signature from one of the Titans of British political history.

Whenever I feel good about the state of the Tory party, I remember that I have a book about Churchill “CHURCHILL FACTOR”, authored by none other then Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, himself.

Unsigned, but then again, I’m pretty sure that Churchill left more capable skid marks...

 

[Paul_10]

Of course I see all the armchair experts on here thinking on the lines anyone could do a better job than Johnson has but let's get real here, we had a virus that was unheard of sweeping right through the country killing many people and infecting many more that there was a real danger for the NHS to cope so we had to take action. Were we too slow to lockdown? Possibly but they wanted to do the herd immunity before realising this was going to kill too many people so reverted to locking down the country. The fact many workers and jobs were saved(including mine) because of furlough came as a huge benefit. Case numbers dropped as they did in Europe and we were getting back to normal but this predicted 2nd wave is arriving and we are stuck just how tight restrictions have to be again.

So in many aspects I sympathise with Boris and his cohorts because if he did nothing first time and there was far too many hospitalisations and deaths, he would be slaughtered and probably be forced to resign, do too much, people complain about a lack of freedom and the economy suffering badly.

Now Johnson deserve huge critisom for defending Cummings, the exam fiasco, and the issues with testing but he's not a magician either, this virus will not go away without any vaccine and the hope was after the first lockdown and with warmer weather, the virus risk would decrease for good but this is not the case so we are in for a rough winter and I do like in his speech, he is not flowering that up either.

Now I never lived through the world wars but I'm sure they are 10 times much tougher than this so young people especially do need to get a grip and stop moaning because they have to wear face masks, they can't stay in a restaurant or pub after 10 and accept life won't be normal for a good while yet.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Now Johnson deserve huge critisom for defending Cummings, the exam fiasco, and the issues with testing but he's not a magician either, this virus will not go away without any vaccine and the hope was after the first lockdown and with warmer weather, the virus risk would decrease for good but this is not the case so we are in for a rough winter and I do like in his speech, he is not flowering that up either.

Don't forget the lack of an effective test and trace system. Last I heard <80% of contacts were being reached by English contact tracers - this is nearer 90% in both Scotland and Wales IIRC. If the Tories didn't want their "world-beating" app at the outset then we probably would have had the NHS tracing app months before we did. It uses existing technology, after all.

Yes we may be in for a "rough winter" but the government have had the summer to prepare for it. Whether they did or not will come to light as we progress further into the darker nights.

Now I never lived through the world wars but I'm sure they are 10 times much tougher than this so young people especially do need to get a grip and stop moaning because they have to wear face masks, they can't stay in a restaurant or pub after 10 and accept life won't be normal for a good while yet.

Why are you attempting to compare a virus with >99% survival rate with a World War?

It is extremely unfair to say words to the effect of "young people will have to suck it up" - because they have been affected just as much as older people: having their school year cut short, not being able to socialise with friends, then the exams fiasco and now the farce with universities effectively imprisoning students just because they want their rent, despite most teaching being done online. And this is the group of people who are statistically affected least by the virus. No one under 25 has died with COVID-19 in Scotland (I don't have UK-wide data, sorry).

On the subject of masks - I see plenty of the older generation having their mask around their chin so they can have a natter with Betty and Doug on the bus. In fact from my own observations, more young people wear them correctly than older people. Plenty under-the-nose or round-the-chin going on. So you can't call out young people here either.

 

[43066]

So in many aspects I sympathise with Boris and his cohorts because if he did nothing first time and there was far too many hospitalisations and deaths, he would be slaughtered and probably be forced to resign, do too much, people complain about a lack of freedom and the economy suffering badly.

Now Johnson deserve huge critisom for defending Cummings, the exam fiasco, and the issues with testing but he's not a magician either, this virus will not go away without any vaccine and the hope was after the first lockdown and with warmer weather, the virus risk would decrease for good but this is not the case so we are in for a rough winter and I do like in his speech, he is not flowering that up either.

Now I never lived through the world wars but I'm sure they are 10 times much tougher than this so young people especially do need to get a grip and stop moaning because they have to wear face masks, they can't stay in a restaurant or pub after 10 and accept life won't be normal for a good while yet.

The problem he’s facing is the fact that his core voter base might desert the party over this.

Speaking personally, I’m not a floating voter. I am a staunch Tory, to the point where I have a signed Maggie Thatcher autobiography in my flat, I’ve owned property since I was 24, I’ve also been a 40% taxpayer since I was 24. I’m now in my late 30s.

And yet, I won’t vote for them again at this rate, that is going to be a problem for them, if it continues.

 

[MikeWM]

I grew up in Liverpool in the 1980s and my grandfather had been a coal miner, so my opinion of Thatcher is rather less positive than some here but I do think it likely that out of all the PMs we've had in my lifetime, she would have handled this best.

As for Corbyn, unfortunately I think we would have seen something very similar to what we have now (though probably with something like UBI rather than furlough, for good or ill).

Two things would probably be better though - first we'd have an opposition that would be calling for fewer restrictions rather than more, as I think the Tories in opposition would be rather more pro-business and pro-civil liberties than they are proving to be at the moment. Secondly I don't think Corbyn would have allowed the NHS to become the 'National Covid Service' that it has in many areas of the country, to the exclusion of treating pretty much any other illnesses.

 

[43066]

I grew up in Liverpool in the 1980s and my grandfather had been a coal miner, so my opinion of Thatcher is rather less positive than some here but I do think it likely that out of all the PMs we've had in my lifetime, she would have handled this best.

Come off it, that’s not exactly a good tale of woe, is it?! I also “grew up in the 1980s” in a great big house, in SE London.

Think more creatively in terms of rags to ritches: my grandmother grew up in Jarrow without shoes on her feet, but had the good sense to marry into money.

That’s a better story, surely?!

 

[MikeWh]

I don't agree, if only because protest in the UK is always just a minority thing - we aren't big protesters in the UK.

No, because I don't believe banner waving actually achieves anything other than getting your personal anger/frustration off your chest.

I'm intrigued by this. How many people have to protest before you think it's big enough? Does the protest have to get violent to be a protest, or can a peaceful march be considered a protest?

Do you consider the poll tax riots to be a protest?
what about the Iraq war protests?
what about the larger anti-brexit protests?

On the last one, I went on four of those. I'm prepared to be persuaded that there might not have quite been a million there, but certainly more than 1% of the whole population of the UK was present at the largest one. When you take away those that work on a Saturday, those who lived too far away and thus couldn't afford to travel and/or stay a night in London, and those who wouldn't be able to march/stand for several hours for all kinds of reasons, I'd say that was a pretty impressive turnout.

 

[43066]

I'm intrigued by this. How many people have to protest before you think it's big enough? Does the protest have to get violent to be a protest, or can a peaceful march be considered a protest?

Do you consider the poll tax riots to be a protest?
what about the Iraq war protests?
what about the larger anti-brexit protests?

On the last one, I went on four of those. I'm prepared to be persuaded that there might not have quite been a million there, but certainly more than 1% of the whole population of the UK was present at the largest one. When you take away those that work on a Saturday, those who lived too far away and thus couldn't afford to travel and/or stay a night in London, and those who wouldn't be able to march/stand for several hours for all kinds of reasons, I'd say that was a pretty impressive turnout.

I’ll go out there, and say I can remember the anti war in Iraq protests.

I honestly can’t remember the anti Brexit protests... Were there any?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I honestly can’t remember the anti Brexit protests... Were there any?

Protesting about a decision made by due democratic process, even if that mandate was weak and the thing itself bad, is getting into the realms of the very bizarre, TBH. And I'm pro-Remain.

 

[JamesT]

Wouldn’t Corbyn have had to shield? Though I can imagine him playing the hero and attending the Durham Miners’ Gala anyway! Meanwhile we’d have had John McDonnell and Diane Abbott running through show. Hmm...

I was thinking to myself this afternoon how I so wish Mrs. Thatcher was at the helm.

Yes, I recall articles from near the start that were having a go at Corbyn for not shielding. He’s over 70 so in a higher risk category but was insistent on attending parliament as normal, despite the guidelines that recommended increased distancing.

 

[takno]

I’ll go out there, and say I can remember the anti war in Iraq protests.

I honestly can’t remember the anti Brexit protests... Were there any?

Yes, pretty big ones, as recently as last year. It's possible you tuned out since the whole news cycle was getting pretty wearing, and unlike the Poll Tax riots and Iraq war protests they were really focused on London

 

[Dent]

At this stage it looks more like the government will be forced to change their course by protests within the Conservative party before it gets to the stage of mass public protest. There are signs from various media outlets that this has already started and is likely to seriously kick off very soon.

 

[Yew]

Now I never lived through the world wars but I'm sure they are 10 times much tougher than this so young people especially do need to get a grip and stop moaning because they have to wear face masks, they can't stay in a restaurant or pub after 10 and accept life won't be normal for a good while yet.

To put an over the top counter argument to that.


We had no problem sacrificing millions of people to protect our way of life in WW1; why do we throw it away now, for the sake of a few pensioners?

 

[Howardh]

At this stage it looks more like the government will be forced to change their course by protests within the Conservative party before it gets to the stage of mass public protest. There are signs from various media outlets that this has already started and is likely to seriously kick off very soon.

I'm not sure about this, but I think I've read that the 40 dissenters (Tory MP's) got their wish of a parliament vote on any future lockdown, rather than Boris just issuing a diktat. If anyone has better infro, a link would be appreciated!!

 

[APT618S]

I'm not sure about this, but I think I've read that the 40 dissenters (Tory MP's) got their wish of a parliament vote on any future lockdown, rather than Boris just issuing a diktat. If anyone has better infro, a link would be appreciated!!

There is this Brady Amendment:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-54289197

 

[Bantamzen]

Notice with the lockdown in some parts of Wales, residents have been told to cancel any pre-booked holidays (presumably UK or abroad) and to stay in their region/town. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-54069466


Frankly I think that's a diabolical liberty. The chances of residents getting all of their money back are limited, and many may get nothing - it all appearsdown to the goodwill of the provider.


The authorities are risking taking these steps too far.

Risking? I'd say that line has already been breached. There is a noticeable change in the mood among many people I know, compliance & fear is being replaced with anger and contempt. Its only going to take one spark to set the fires going, and people losing hundreds, maybe thousands of pounds could be just one spark.

At this stage it looks more like the government will be forced to change their course by protests within the Conservative party before it gets to the stage of mass public protest. There are signs from various media outlets that this has already started and is likely to seriously kick off very soon.

There has definitely been a shift within the right leaning media, which does indicate that Conservative supporters are shifting their opinions on lockdown measures. These coming months are going to be interesting to say the least.

 

[Ianno87]

Protesting about a decision made by due democratic process, even if that mandate was weak and the thing itself bad, is getting into the realms of the very bizarre, TBH.

That was, pretty much, the very point of the protests. People who basically felt ignored because what the 52% wanted totally overrode the interests of the 48% losing their rights.

That's worth protesting about. The only democratic country possibly ever to vote away its population's own rights.

 

[DB]

That was, pretty much, the very point of the protests. People who basically felt ignored because what the 52% wanted totally overrode the interests of the 48% losing their rights.

That's worth protesting about. The only democratic country possibly ever to vote away its population's own rights.

And also it's normal for a major change like this to require a two thirds majority, rather than a simple majority.

 

[Ianno87]

And also it's normal for a major change like this to require a two thirds majority, rather than a simple majority.

*And* it was only an advisory referendum of course. It was not a "decision". The protest were simply highlighting that the advice given might be flawed.

 

[Howardh]

There is this Brady Amendment:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-politics-54289197

A thousand internets to you, sir/madam!!

 

[jtuk]

That was, pretty much, the very point of the protests. People who basically felt ignored because what the 52% wanted totally overrode the interests of the 48% losing their rights.

That's worth protesting about. The only democratic country possibly ever to vote away its population's own rights.

If those rights were so important to be worth keeping, maybe you could have centred the Remain campaign around them and the benefits of continued EU membership, rather than indulging in Project Fear?

 

[DB]

If those rights were so important to be worth keeping, maybe you could have centred the Remain campaign around them and the benefits of continued EU membership, rather than indulging in Project Fear?

Best to see what happens in January before dismissing 'project fear'. The way things are going the predictions might well prove accurate.

 

[brad465]

Best to see what happens in January before dismissing 'project fear'. The way things are going the predictions might well prove accurate.

Or if the effective border around Kent is anything to go by, turns out Project fear was "Project underestimated".

Either way Brexit-related problems in January will exacerbate Covid problems if restrictions are still going on then, in turn exacerbating the severity and scale of potential protests.