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Is the Alderley Edge stopper really necessary?

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Bevan Price

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In addition to any other points, trains can turnback easily at Alderley Edge without blocking the through lines for long periods, using the sidings southwest of the station. Wilmslow does not have a similar facility, and neither is it easy to turnback at Stockport without causing congestion problems by having to cross the entire layout on the Manchester side of the station.
 
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Ianno87

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Without turning this into another "My idea for Castlefield" thread, I reckon the below is how you'd keep 2tph/4tph on all core routes North/West of Manchester:

Castlefield (13tph)
2tph Liverpool-Chat Moss-Oxford Rd
2tph Liverpool-Chat Moss-Sheffield-beyond
2tph TPE-Victoria-Airport
2tph Blackpool/Scotland-Preston-Bolton-Man Airport
2tph Preston-Bolton-Hazel Grove
2tph Liverpool-Chat Moss-Airport
1tph freight
1tph firebreak

Vic (North Lines - 6tph)
2tph Blackburn-Bolton-Rochdale
2tph Southport-Wigan-Bolton-Calder Valley
2tph Wigan-Atherton-Calder Valley/Tod Curve

Vic (South Lines)
2tph Liverpool TPE
2tph Man Airport TPE
2tph Llandudno/Chester-Stalybridge

Pros:
-Only 13tph through Castlefield
-Only Castlefield DMUs required fir CLC services
-Two 'halves' of Victoria segregated
-etc
 

jfollows

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In addition to any other points, trains can turnback easily at Alderley Edge without blocking the through lines for long periods, using the sidings southwest of the station. Wilmslow does not have a similar facility, and neither is it easy to turnback at Stockport without causing congestion problems by having to cross the entire layout on the Manchester side of the station.
I'm not fundamentally disagreeing with you, but it's easy to reverse in platforms 2 & 3 in Wilmslow, and also use the turnback siding behind signal MS 1715 from platforms 2 & 3 (The Piccadilly-Newton Heath ECS which worked Stockport-Stalybridge FO used to do this). Arriving in platform 3 in the up direction is easy now.
 

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py_megapixel

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I'm not fundamentally disagreeing with you, but it's easy to reverse in platforms 2 & 3 in Wilmslow, and also use the turnback siding behind signal MS 1715 from platform 2 (The Piccadilly-Newton Heath ECS which worked Stockport-Stalybridge FO used to do this). Arriving in platform 3 in the up direction is easy now.
Indeed, there were services booked to do so under First North Western. One still remains, bizarrely operated by Transport for Wales!
 

Shaw S Hunter

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I think if Castlefield is going to be properly sorted in the short term, then the industry is going to have to stand up and tell people it can't connect everywhere to everywhere directly.

So send the real interloper, the North Wales service, back to Victoria where it "belongs"! There's even a reversing siding in the right part of the station area as opposed to cluttering up the Airport line or making a crossing manoeuvre to reach the Mayfield loop. The fact is that Wigan area passengers have long been short changed by the Windsor Link as connections at Salford Crescent (or Bolton) have mostly been poor. If North Wales so desperately needs a direct link to Manchester Airport perhaps the Welsh Government should be campaigning for (and part-funding) the oft-mooted extension of the Airport branch to link with the Knutsford line.
 

Thermal

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Not going to happen. The Southport line link into Piccadilly is a substantial political 'football', as was demonstrated when it was proposed to be removed in the May 18 timetable change. The only change that could happen would be to send it somewhere other than Alderley Edge from Piccadilly.


As AMD says, this service is run for political reasons over and above any considerations of practicality or necessity. The final destination beyond Piccadilly may change over time, based on wherever is currently the simplest location to path and turn back from, but the services main issues (and knock effect to others) will remain for the foreseeable future as there are significant external barriers to removing Southport's connection to Piccadilly.
 

CHAPS2034

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As a regular user of Cheadle Hulme, it all worked very well with the Piccadilly - Alderley shuttle running - very few delays and 323s in use.

Then we got the Southport - Alderley service - frequently delayed coming through Castlefield such that if you were going to Wilmslow to catch a Euston, the Alderley was either behind it by Stockport or held at Adswood Road.

The down service was more reliable as it only started at Alderley, but often had to wait a few minutes for the late running TfW to pass before it came out of the siding. This delay, even a few minutes was impossible to make up before it got into the Castlefield corridor and knocked on delays across the system.

It did allow me to travel on 142s though which I always enjoyed, but there again I was only on it from time to time. :) I also used to go to Wigan a couple of times a month and it was great not having to change. Now it is the hideous 150.

During the Covid timetable this xx00 departure from Cheadle Hulme was removed and so Cheadle Hulme -Manchester departures were at xx24 (ex Crewe) and xx36 (ex Stoke). Not very good.

But in the up direction the Southport- Alderley leaves Piccadilly at xx 36 before the Stoke stopper xx44, so not much of a gap there. If things are roughly on time, the Stoke stopper which is non stop MAN-SPT is coming up to Adswood Road when the Alderley is in the platform at Cheadle Hulme. The next departure MAN-CHU is at xx01

Never seen any six coach trains in regular use at Cheadle Hulme except during the recent engineering work where the Blackpool - Hazel Groves (2x331/0) have been diverted to Macclesfield on Saturdays

Other people have made sensible points about the nonsensical suggestion that people from Handforth should go to Wilmslow. Obviously this suggestion came from someone who has no local knowledge.

Lets get the Alderley shuttle back again although I realise that that will create political difficulties by the seaside
 
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30907

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So to summarise: yes it is necessary, but it shouldn't run to Oxford Rd/ Deansgate/Southport? Have I got that right?
 

43096

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As AMD says, this service is run for political reasons over and above any considerations of practicality or necessity. The final destination beyond Piccadilly may change over time, based on wherever is currently the simplest location to path and turn back from, but the services main issues (and knock effect to others) will remain for the foreseeable future as there are significant external barriers to removing Southport's connection to Piccadilly.
What is so special about Southport linking with Piccadilly?
 

Shaw S Hunter

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As AMD says, this service is run for political reasons over and above any considerations of practicality or necessity. The final destination beyond Piccadilly may change over time, based on wherever is currently the simplest location to path and turn back from, but the services main issues (and knock effect to others) will remain for the foreseeable future as there are significant external barriers to removing Southport's connection to Piccadilly.

Welcome to the forum.

It's worth highlighting that the demand for the Southport link has little to do with Southport itself, it just happens to be the outer terminus. The political demand arises from the considerable number of commuters from Burscough and points east wanting a direct connection to Oxford Road/Piccadilly as opposed to unreliable/over-crowded connections at Bolton or Salford Crescent. Not to mention the fact that any number of services from the Chorley line seems to be acceptable but not from the Southport line. And heaven forbid that Atherton line passengers should ever expect such a through service.

In reality it was the construction and use of the Ordsall chord which was the Castlefield corridor's back-breaking straw. It should have been part of the (then) Manchester Hub scheme including substantial rebuilding of both Oxford Road and Piccadilly 13/14. But failing Grayling buried the station schemes in his pending tray and now it will have to wait for TfN to develop some teeth (and financial muscle). The Alderley shuttle has been an innocent victim in all this. I rather suspect that permanent solutions will only fall into place when HS2 reaches Manchester.
 

Ianno87

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It's worth highlighting that the demand for the Southport link has little to do with Southport itself, it just happens to be the outer terminus. The political demand arises from the considerable number of commuters from Burscough and points east wanting a direct connection to Oxford Road/Piccadilly as opposed to unreliable/over-crowded connections at Bolton or Salford Crescent.

Worth noting that the main point of demand on the Southport run - Wigan - gets direct Piccadilly services via Chat Moss.

So it was only Westhoughton / Burscough / Southport who would be the main 'losers'.
 

mwmbwls

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Not going to happen. The Southport line link into Piccadilly is a substantial political 'football', as was demonstrated when it was proposed to be removed in the May 18 timetable change. The only change that could happen would be to send it somewhere other than Alderley Edge from Piccadilly.


Southport services are not a political football - every service into Manchester has the same political drivers.

DfT Civil Servants inflated the Political Football when they tried to build a timetable in the absence of accurate passenger data, This arose from the fact that travellers to Manchester Stations were not disaggregated by destination - Manchester was the only city outside London having grouped stations for ticketing purposes. Because other routes were pressing for more capacity and both Lancashire and Merseyside were more concerned about trains that ran across the Manchester border - a group think syndrome arose. It was quite shocking when we read the e-mails that the FOI requests to the Timetable Stakeholders revealed. The key flaw in all of the planning was that the planners only saw this in terms of railway journeys/tickets whilst passengers buy journeys to and from work. When major surgery was delayed at MRI because consultants travelling in from Southport could not get there in time for shift changes and mothers were finding themselves penalised by nurseries for the late pick up of their children from nursery - the political ordure hit the rotating ventilating equipment. There will be similar constraints of changes to all service travelling into Manchester including your particular favourites. Facile back of fag packet assumptions about services you don't travel on won't really cut it. Please understand that the Castlefield Chord was not a major engineering service break-through it was the product of a do minimum decision by the DfT who had rationalised away the other key elements such as non conflicting junctions at Bolton, double tracking on the Blackburn line north of Bolton, rebuilding Oxford Road and Manchester Piccadilly. Heaton Norris and Stockport Edgeley. When finally published the Piccadilly Congested Infrastructure Report nailed the problem exactly. If that report is not implemented -all of us, commentators here, are just playing trains.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Worth noting that the main point of demand on the Southport run - Wigan - gets direct Piccadilly services via Chat Moss.

So it was only Westhoughton / Burscough / Southport who would be the main 'losers'.

You would be surprised at just how much demand there is from the other stations, especially Parbold, Appley Bridge and Hindley. IME greater than from the 3 you mentioned and aggregating to more than Wigan on that particular line's services, at least in the peaks. The Chat Moss service is an essential provider of additional capacity, without it the remaining services would leave passengers behind. All pre-Covid of course!
 

Ianno87

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Southport services are not a political football - every service into Manchester has the same political drivers.

DfT Civil Servants inflated the Political Football when they tried to build a timetable in the absence of accurate passenger data, This arose from the fact that travellers to Manchester Stations were not disaggregated by destination - Manchester was the only city outside London having grouped stations for ticketing purposes. Because other routes were pressing for more capacity and both Lancashire and Merseyside were more concerned about trains that ran across the Manchester border - a group think syndrome arose. It was quite shocking when we read the e-mails that the FOI requests to the Timetable Stakeholders revealed. The key flaw in all of the planning was that the planners only saw this in terms of railway journeys/tickets whilst passengers buy journeys to and from work. When major surgery was delayed at MRI because consultants travelling in from Southport could not get there in time for shift changes and mothers were finding themselves penalised by nurseries for the late pick up of their children from nursery - the political ordure hit the rotating ventilating equipment. There will be similar constraints of changes to all service travelling into Manchester including your particular favourites. Facile back of fag packet assumptions about services you don't travel on won't really cut it. Please understand that the Castlefield Chord was not a major engineering service break-through it was the product of a do minimum decision by the DfT who had rationalised away the other key elements such as non conflicting junctions at Bolton, double tracking on the Blackburn line north of Bolton, rebuilding Oxford Road and Manchester Piccadilly. Heaton Norris and Stockport Edgeley. When finally published the Piccadilly Congested Infrastructure Report nailed the problem exactly. If that report is not implemented -all of us, commentators here, are just playing trains.

Reality is that there are about 12 robust passenger paths per hour through the Castlefield corridor, pending an infrastructure solution.

That inevitably involves trading off routes against each other to make best use of these paths, whatever that looks like.
 

mwmbwls

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Reality is that there are about 12 robust passenger paths per hour through the Castlefield corridor, pending an infrastructure solution.

That inevitably involves trading off routes against each other to make best use of these paths, whatever that looks like.
I do not disagree that this is the realpolitik. The Congested Infrastructure Report detailing the additional works necessary goes some way to addressing the problems .The Castlefield Corridor was.is a serious symptomatic failure that falls into the too little/too late category. There were as I have indicated above a number of systemic flaws with origins in the working of the now defunct franchise system. It is important to be able to recognise the difference between symptomatic and causal failure. I became involved in this as part of the local opposition to the dismemberment of the Southport services. Prior to this, I was one of the founding team at London Reconnections, analysts specialising in transport policy and practice in London. What I saw in Manchester was history repeating itself in that Thameslink had started with the clever idea of linking the MML north and Brighton line south side services but rapidly became enmeshed in conflicting junctions over which vociferous commuters with handy access to politicians. travelled. The answer was to completely rebuild the whole route including new stations at St Pancras, Farringdon, Blackfriars and the whopper that is London Bridge - East Croydon is the final brick in the wall. The Thameslink Press Office described it as the largest spaghetti unravelling exercise in the world which it was.

Manchester suffered from same form of transport sclerosis but on a smaller scale. Governments of both stripes have tended to regard railways as an expensive inconvenience. In his day Alastair Darling was as big a menace as Chris Grayling was to become. Keeping the railways out of the news post Hatfield was a DfT mantra. It remained so until the retendering of the Northern Rail Franchises and the creation of Northern and TPE franchises when the idea of a good and bad railway took root.In terms of timetable precedence the fastest services were first on the graph, followed by slower services with freight generally coming last. A number of infills had been built at Hazel Grove and the Windsor link. Each had yielded benefits but at the expense of junction congestion at Edgeley and Ordsall Lane. The new viaduct at Castlefield was the straw that broke the camel's back . It was Thameslink all over again.

A scratch team of representative from Network Rail, the PTE's and the County Council Rail Officers was formed, each experts in their area but without effective strategic leadership. They saw themselves as arbiters of scarce resource. They were advised by Steer Davis Gleave. However the data they used was fundamentally flawed. This is the executive summary of a report I prepared at the time:

"
•We (OPSTA) contend that there has been a fundamental process failure in developing the Train Service Requirement upon which franchise agreements and associated documents such as timetables and rolling stock rosters have been prepared.
•We contend that there are causal and contributory causes to this failure.
•Causal factors
•The making of “irrevocable decisions” from inadequate information. In this case using Station Entry and Exit (SE&E) data prepared on behalf of the ORR for one purpose, (ORCATS allocation) for other purposes. The ORR specifically warns against this practice known as “data stretch”.
•This data stretch may not have been self evident as the tableau data base prepared by Steer Davis Gleave incorporates not only the SE&E data but also data from other sources and where necessary estimates are generated requiring simplifying assumptions. Such agglomeration is misleading with regard to the usage of Southport services.
•Manchester is one of two special cases recognised by the ORR in the preparation of their Station Entry and Exit Data. London is cited as the other special case. (In practice Manchester, London and “Manchester & London” are special cases). The planning team failed to recognise the implications of this special case(s) status designation.
• Contributory factors
•Whilst not appreciating the fundamental weaknesses of the data upon which their decision was based the team realised that their results could be controversial and adopted procedures that avoided scrutiny and/or constructive criticism. This has become evident not only from FOI evidence subsequently received from local LTA’s but also from the material discrepancies between the answers from the LTA’s.
•In order to reach a solution the team deviated from a decision process based upon an, albeit flawed, Evidence Based Policy to a “special case” variant based on policy based evidence. The STR is therefore dependent on a reverse-engineered business case ‘methodology’, in which the starting point for appraisal was the desired conclusion
•Questionable assumptions were made to support this special case argument. The team also saw the problem in terms of “either/or” trade offs rather than seeking logical “and” solutions
• The derived decision is without precedent and inconsistent with precedents accepted by the DfT in analogous cases.

The missing link in the team was that it failed to include the ORR because nobody realised that they needed to. The rest is history. The creation of TfN and its brain child NPR was a welcome response to resolving the issue - however this seems to have run into the sands of lethargy that flow in the corridors of the DfT.

With all due respect to the previous correspondent -unless people grasp all the complex systems engineering interplays at stake - the reality is we should not be surprised as the axiom has it - "If you do what you always you do - You will get what you always got. That is the reality.
 

Purple Orange

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The idea of cutting the stopper services to Alderley Edge is a nonsense. The route via Stockport should be at least 4 tph. Alas, long distance services get in the way and are prioritised. If the line was ripe for Metrolink (and wholly within Greater Manchester) frequency would be 10 tph. If Altrincham, Sale, Bury, can manage it, I’m sure areas such as Cheadle Hulme, Bramhall, Alderley Edge and Handforth can too.

I do agree with the OP that the Southport service should split up in Manchester. Southport terminat8ng in Victoria (or Stalyvegas) and Alderley Edge terminating at Piccadilly.
 

mwmbwls

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I do agree with the OP that the Southport service should split up in Manchester. Southport terminating in Victoria (or Stalyvegas) and Alderley Edge terminating at Piccadilly.
Living where you do I can see your point. Could Piccadilly cope with more terminators? The current service pattern is Alderley Edge - Piccadilly - Wigan - Southport- Wigan - Victoria - Stalybridge - Victoria - Wigan - Southport - Wigan - Piccadilly - Alderley Edge. Services originate from the new Springs Branch depot. The platforms at Victoria are through platforms - the key in the word through. Recovery time is built in. Works well for crew changes.
 

jfollows

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Could Piccadilly cope with more terminators?
It's a fair question.
My initial thought is that it did cope with the Alderley Edge terminators prior to May 2018, and the number of trains reversing to/from the airport has reduced with the timetable since then also, with the Ordsall Chord services. But of course other changes since May 2018 may have the opposite effect on capacity for terminators.
 

Llandudno

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High quality Sapphire buses ran for a while but it was overpriced, slow and the drivers didn't have a clue how to issue the correct tickets. (I have friends living in the area and occasionally tried to use the bus while visiting them; it was hopeless). And after a few years the buses were replaced with bog standard and rather worn out Optares.
Yes, the joys of Arriva Buses.

Convert routes to Sapphire branding in a blaze of marketing glory, then a couple of years later run old bangers on them, lose passengers and then halve the frequency!
 

py_megapixel

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Convert routes to Sapphire branding in a blaze of marketing glory, then a couple of years later run old bangers on them, lose passengers and then halve the frequency!
It seems that they also hiked the fares when they converted to Sapphire, and as far as I can tell didn't put them back when the Sapphire buses went away.

Not that I'm surprised, given it's Arriva.
 

Purple Orange

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Living where you do I can see your point. Could Piccadilly cope with more terminators? The current service pattern is Alderley Edge - Piccadilly - Wigan - Southport- Wigan - Victoria - Stalybridge - Victoria - Wigan - Southport - Wigan - Piccadilly - Alderley Edge. Services originate from the new Springs Branch depot. The platforms at Victoria are through platforms - the key in the word through. Recovery time is built in. Works well for crew changes.
I accept the arguments about operational convenience, but then what does that mean to passengers who are stood on P13 for an increasingly delayed train. Some days I need to get to Alderley Edge or Handforth, rather than Wilmslow and too many times I've got in a taxi at Wilmslow because the direct train was non-existent.
 

4-SUB 4732

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It is something of a shame that what doesn’t exist is a half-hourly Crewe to Manchester via Stockport stopper, continuing through to Bolton (hourly) and Preston or even Blackpool North (hourly).

You then have the benefit of a nippy electric stopping at the likes of Farnworth and Moses Gate, a solid frequency on the Ordsall corridor that can be pathed perfectly at Slade Lane and Castlefield to be parallel, and then you can just operate a Crewe to Airport hourly shuttle calling at Styal; and with some smaller stops taken out south of Wilmslow.

The benefit then is being able to make better use of the Corridor, and diverting Southport stuff (if half-hourly via Bolton and none of them via Walkden) to Victoria or beyond as diesel services.
 

jfollows

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It is something of a shame that what doesn’t exist is a half-hourly Crewe to Manchester via Stockport stopper, continuing through to Bolton (hourly) and Preston or even Blackpool North (hourly).

You then have the benefit of a nippy electric stopping at the likes of Farnworth and Moses Gate, a solid frequency on the Ordsall corridor that can be pathed perfectly at Slade Lane and Castlefield to be parallel, and then you can just operate a Crewe to Airport hourly shuttle calling at Styal; and with some smaller stops taken out south of Wilmslow.

The benefit then is being able to make better use of the Corridor, and diverting Southport stuff (if half-hourly via Bolton and none of them via Walkden) to Victoria or beyond as diesel services.
Prior to the 2018 May timetable there was a Crewe-Bolton morning service which put out a motley amalgamation of Pacers and other things, and which never made it to an EMU service because of the delay in completion of the electrification. But it was only one service, seemed like a good idea.

We were also promised electric services in May 2018 on the Wigan/Southport services, with the hybrid units which have never yet worked in passenger service.

The Crewe-Airport already omits Chelford and Goostrey stops today.
 

py_megapixel

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Prior to the 2018 May timetable there was a Crewe-Bolton morning service which put out a motley amalgamation of Pacers and other things, and which never made it to an EMU service because of the delay in completion of the electrification. But it was only one service, seemed like a good idea
Was that via the Airport, or via Cheadle Hulme and Stockport?
 

Ianno87

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We were also promised electric services in May 2018 on the Wigan/Southport services, with the hybrid units which have never yet worked in passenger service.

That was why it was originally a Wigan North Western-Alderley Edge service - so that (with wiring Lostock-Wigan) it could be a nice high-performing EMU through Castlefield...

Was that via the Airport, or via Cheadle Hulme and Stockport?

Via Stockport as I recall
 

jfollows

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Was that via the Airport, or via Cheadle Hulme and Stockport?
Cheadle Hulme. 2H29, in the May 2017 timetable it's shown as DMU whereas in the December 2017 timetable it's shown as EMU, but it never actually made the transition.
EDIT - whenever I saw it it was something like 2xPacer + 1x150, it also had to "hide" in the back platform at Sandbach en route. It's the only time I've seen a 6-car train on a local service through Wilmslow for sure.
 

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So send the real interloper, the North Wales service, back to Victoria where it "belongs"! There's even a reversing siding in the right part of the station area as opposed to cluttering up the Airport line or making a crossing manoeuvre to reach the Mayfield loop. The fact is that Wigan area passengers have long been short changed by the Windsor Link as connections at Salford Crescent (or Bolton) have mostly been poor. If North Wales so desperately needs a direct link to Manchester Airport perhaps the Welsh Government should be campaigning for (and part-funding) the oft-mooted extension of the Airport branch to link with the Knutsford line.
Well said.
 

cle

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North Wales should go back to Victoria - especially given that the Chester-Leeds is active (pre-Covid caveats) - giving them one terminus. Given that Victoria is so well located (and yet not as well known/thought of) - it makes sense to spread it out.

On the Wales note, the Cardiff/West Wales service does take up a platform (11?) for quite a long time. Maybe the Alderley Edge service could turn there.

Without getting into politics of who deserves what, the London services are at least, long. So they provide a big chunk of the capacity between Manchester and Stoke, Wilmslow and Macclesfield (plus Stockport!) - but the remainder of the services through both Stockport and Castlefield should be evaluated on car lengths. Not this everywhere deserves 1 x Picc/Airport rubbish. 2 and 3 car services should be running out to Victoria and Rochdale/Staly.
 

jfollows

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On the Wales note, the Cardiff/West Wales service does take up a platform (11?) for quite a long time. Maybe the Alderley Edge service could turn there.
I don't disagree with you, but you remind me that platforms 9, 10, 11 & 12 are compromised. They all share a single track, and platform 12 is relatively inaccessible to passengers as well. In the 1970s platforms 11 & 12 simply weren't used for passenger trains, indeed I think the track was lifted in platform 12 whereas platform 11 was used for parcels trains because a road ran into the station between platforms 10 & 11. Platform 10 was used, but only infrequently - my 16:10 to Poynton and Macclesfield used it for example.

The layout was compromised when platforms 13 & 14 were extended south, so the direct routes out of platforms 10, 11 & 12 were slewed into that from platform 9, which is the layout we have today. The attached diagrams show the difference well, I think, even allowing for my hand-drawn diagram of the earlier layout. "Then" is around 1980, but in essence any time between the western side electrification of ~1960 until the extension of platforms 13 & 14 in 1988/9.

So it's understandable that there is a reason for reducing the number of terminating trains, however the Alderley Edge terminators managed to find space to terminate prior to May 2018.

In the 1970s the use of platform 4 for "western" trains was also a no-no, even for diesel trains, obviously not possible for electric trains because it was wired for DC. Nowadays I see a lot of use of platform 4 for trains destined for Slade Lane and beyond. So in the 1970s it was no problem having terminating platforms 5-9 only, with occasional extra use of 10. Then with the Windsor Link came in the increasing use of platforms 13 &14, leading to their extension at the price of accessibility to platforms 10-12 which weren't really used much anyway, but now we need them as well.

At the end of the day, the Alderley Edge services run to Southport mainly for operating convenience, and that in theory their paths are better than terminating at Piccadilly. Almost nobody who uses the services from the south wants to go beyond Manchester, and there's a lot of noise about access to Piccadilly from the north.
 

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