Reversing Beeching: Isle of Wight proposals

[deltic]

Based on a request for tenders for a strategic outline business case the Isle of Wight lines being looked at are

• an extension of the existing Island Line service (Ryde-Shanklin) south of Shanklin to reach Ventnor;
• integration with, and extension of, the existing Isle of Wight Steam Railway route to provide passenger services through Smallbrook Junction to facilitate a service from Ryde to Newport.

 

[Kieran1990]

Based on a request for tenders for a strategic outline business case the Isle of Wight lines being looked at are

• an extension of the existing Island Line service (Ryde-Shanklin) south of Shanklin to reach Ventnor;
• integration with, and extension of, the existing Isle of Wight Steam Railway route to provide passenger services through Smallbrook Junction to facilitate a service from Ryde to Newport.

Let’s say both scheme’s get the go-ahead- how close can the rails get to Newport/ ventnor?
Would third rail be extended from Smallbrook to Newport or battery 3rd rail hybrid?

 

[Tobbes]

Let’s say both scheme’s get the go-ahead- how close can the rails get to Newport/ ventnor?
Would third rail be extended from Smallbrook to Newport or battery 3rd rail hybrid?

Time to move the IOWSR to the Sandown to Newport branch, and turn the existing IOWSR alignment into a electrified branch.....

 

[DorkingMain]

Let’s say both scheme’s get the go-ahead- how close can the rails get to Newport/ ventnor?
Would third rail be extended from Smallbrook to Newport or battery 3rd rail hybrid?

There's quite a large and empty industrial area on the edge of Newport town centre IIRC, would not be a terrible location to build a station

 

[MarkyT]

Time to move the IOWSR to the Sandown to Newport branch, and turn the existing IOWSR alignment into a electrified branch.....

Alternatively, the Brading to Bembridge branch might be resurrected for continued steam operations. Initially steam could share the existing IOWSR line with battery equipped D-trains.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Sep 2020 ==

There's quite a large and empty industrial area on the edge of Newport town centre IIRC, would not be a terrible location to build a station

If, for the last mile or so, a new alignment was built, it could bridge the A3054, then cross the festival fields around the Medina Leisure Centre and follow the river to a new terminus in the car park near the quay, a short walk under Medina Way from the town centre.

 

[Tobbes]

Alternatively, the Brading to Bembridge branch might be resurrected for continued steam operations. Initially steam could share the existing IOWSR line with battery equipped D-trains.

It would be interesting to see what IOWSR could get out of it if their line were CPO'd. One wonders if they'd not be better served with Newport to Freshwater - we can dream!

 

[MarkyT]

It would be interesting to see what IOWSR could get out of it if their line were CPO'd. One wonders if they'd not be better served with Newport to Freshwater - we can dream!

Perhaps they could retain the freehold and get long term track access or lease income to help raise finance to reconstruct on another alignment while retaining access rights on their own property to run heritage trains at quieter times between the battery carts. They'd need their own dedicated offline platform and runround at each end of the steam run to keep clear of the regular services. Haven Street might be retained as their engineering base and they could gain rights to transfer stock over the 'mainline' between there and wherever a new ops base was set up, with traction power (where neccessary) remotely isolated for such movements. At Ventnor, my solution would be to have an electric shuttle bus route linking the station site with the town centre and seafront, with a direct 'cross platform' interchange at the station and guaranteed connections - like a modern tech equivalent of the Victorian funicular proposal! At Newport, I'd also move the town's bus station to a series of stances along Quay Street for better interchange with my proposed railway station site.

 

[Chester1]

Let’s say both scheme’s get the go-ahead- how close can the rails get to Newport/ ventnor?
Would third rail be extended from Smallbrook to Newport or battery 3rd rail hybrid?

I can't see ORR granting a third rail extension or government providing funding. Adding batteries to the new units and buying a couple more would be the best option. Interworking the two services should provide enough charge for Smallbrook - Newport.

If, for the last mile or so, a new alignment was built, it could bridge the A3054, then cross the festival fields around the Medina Leisure Centre and follow the river to a new terminus in the car park near the quay, a short walk under Medina Way from the town centre.

On the old alignment the limit would be Victoria Road. I think your right about the alternative. Anything that crosses the river will be ruled out by cost. I don't think the government will fund it though.

 

[Tobbes]

Perhaps they could retain the freehold and get long term track access or lease income to help raise finance to reconstruct on another alignment while retaining access rights on their own property to run heritage trains at quieter times between the battery carts. They'd need their own dedicated offline platform and runround at each end of the steam run to keep clear of the regular services. Haven Street might be retained as their engineering base and they could gain rights to transfer stock over the 'mainline' between there and wherever a new ops base was set up, with traction power (where neccessary) remotely isolated for such movements.

I was thinking that if this scheme were to go ahead (which I doubt), then you'd use the CPO powers in the Bill to CPO the solum of one of the other branches for the IoWSR, and then hand it over in a form ready for heritage railway use in return for their existing freehold. On this basis, any of the branches from Newport could theoretically be reinstated as a heritage railway, (or Brading-Bembridge, obviously).

At Ventnor, my solution would be to have an electric shuttle bus route linking the station site with the town centre and seafront, with a direct 'cross platform' interchange at the station and guaranteed connections - like a modern tech equivalent of the Victorian funicular proposal!

Very sensible.

At Newport, I'd also move the town's bus station to a series of stances along Quay Street for better interchange with my proposed railway station site.

Sorry, I'm not quite getting where this would be.

 

[MarkyT]

Sorry, I'm not quite getting where this would be.

As shown here. Note the three green spots represent multiple bus bays - the actual number provided would be as required.

 

[Tobbes]

As shown here. Note the three green spots represent multiple bus bays - the actual number provided would be as required.
View attachment 83849

Newport, surely? But many thanks, that looks sensible.

 

[MarkyT]

Newport, surely? But many thanks, that looks sensible.

Of course! edited.

 

[Tobbes]

Of course! edited.

Many thanks. Looking at the Google Earth, it makes me wonder if you could close "The Quay" to traffic and turn it into a single platform station running back under the Medina Way bridges, with the Station fronting Sea St, and with the bus stands moved to part of the County Hall Car Park for an integrated transport hub.

 

[MarkyT]

Many thanks. Looking at the Google Earth, it makes me wonder if you could close "The Quay" to traffic and turn it into a single platform station running back under the Medina Way bridges, with the Station fronting Sea St, and with the bus stands moved to part of the County Hall Car Park for an integrated transport hub.

A good idea to get the rail facility closer to both town and bus interchange and should definitely be considered as an option, although the loss of parking and quayside road access might not be acceptable. 250m on foot between bus and train is only 2 or 3 minutes walk.

 

[Tobbes]

A good idea to get the rail facility closer to both town and bus interchange and should definitely be considered as an option, although the loss of parking and quayside road access might not be acceptable. 250m on foot between bus and train is only 2 or 3 minutes walk.

Agreed, but 250m becomes a lot more for the disabled and elderly. It will be interesting to see what they come up with.

 

[ainsworth74]

If I've got my geography right it's uphill as well from the proposed station site to the proposed bus stands.

 

[Gloster]

Quay Street is a bit out of the centre and you won’t get further in without a fair bit of demolition. The existing bus station, even if it has had to extend out onto Church Litten due to social distancing, is reasonably well placed. Getting the line from the existing alignment down to the Medina and then alongside it would not be the easiest job. The cutting at Wootton is completely filled in and there is some sort of pipeline underneath a bit further on.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 24 Sep 2020 ==

EDIT (if I do that properly): it is uphill from the quay and the bus stands would be sufficiently far away for the whole thing not to be a single interchange.

 

[MarkyT]

If I've got my geography right it's uphill as well from the proposed station site to the proposed bus stands.

Agreed, Quay Street rises continuously along most of its length going away from the quay. By counting bricks along the main wall of the Magistrates court, I reckon the gradient is about 1:28 or about 3.5% at the quay end, although it levels out at the High Street end.

 

[Gloster]

Who is going to travel to Newport, other than passengers off the FastCat at Ryde Pier Head? Much of Ryde, both housing and commercial areas, is up on the hills, resulting in an uphill walk from both stations. There is virtually nothing at Ashey and Haven Street is only a small village. Wootton is a large village, but most of the housing is on or beyond the main road, giving a fair walk to and from the station, while Whippingham station is only convenient for the crematorium.

 

[Tobbes]

Agreed, Quay Street rises continuously along most of its length going away from the quay. By counting bricks along the main wall of the Magistrates court, I reckon the gradient is about 1:28 or about 3.5% at the quay end, although it levels out at the High Street end.

Quay Street appears quite steep, which is why I'd leave the station north of Sea St on the flat bit of the Quay itself with the platform extending under the road bridge, and then move the bus stands into the car park - how long are Island Line platforms? The buses can still stop more centrally en route to the interchange - as has been said, getting further into Newport is going to involve lots of demolition, which doesn't feel likely or appropriate.

The other point is that a station on what is now Quay Street fed by a new route on the Medina side of Fairlee Road will would leave open a future extension to Cowes via a new bridge north of Stag Lane - whether it is worth it is a different matter, of course, as Cowes-Ryde would require a reversal at Newport.

 

[Chester1]

Who is going to travel to Newport, other than passengers off the FastCat at Ryde Pier Head? Much of Ryde, both housing and commercial areas, is up on the hills, resulting in an uphill walk from both stations. There is virtually nothing at Ashey and Haven Street is only a small village. Wootton is a large village, but most of the housing is on or beyond the main road, giving a fair walk to and from the station, while Whippingham station is only convenient for the crematorium.

Hopefully the D trains will be a success and boost the case for light rail conversion in 10-15 years time. Street running and hill climbing would provide better options for Newport and enable the line to continue to Cowes. Ventnor would be much better served by light rail in town than heavy rail at the top of a very steep hill. Getting even more speculative, a light rail fixed link to Gosport and Portsmouth would be less likely to be vetoed by the Navy. The gradient could be sufficiently steep to avoid any submerged tunneling and just tunnel underneath sea bed instead.

 

[MarkyT]

Quay Street appears quite steep, which is why I'd leave the station north of Sea St on the flat bit of the Quay itself with the platform extending under the road bridge, and then move the bus stands into the car park - how long are Island Line platforms? The buses can still stop more centrally en route to the interchange - as has been said, getting further into Newport is going to involve lots of demolition, which doesn't feel likely or appropriate.

The other point is that a station on what is now Quay Street fed by a new route on the Medina side of Fairlee Road will would leave open a future extension to Cowes via a new bridge north of Stag Lane - whether it is worth it is a different matter, of course, as Cowes-Ryde would require a reversal at Newport.

A reversal isn't a huge problem and could be achieved quickly with short MU trains, especially if signalling and points control is achieved using modern methods rather than time-consuming tokens and mechanical ground frames! A single two-car D-train unit is slightly under 40m so 80m platform standage should be adequate for typical traffic and passive provision/safegaurding for an extension to six-car or more would be sensible. If, in a Cowes extension scenario, trains were passing at Newport, then a LIFO strategy might be employed in a single long terminal spur, similar to Battersby (although I understand that's not been used routinely for passing in any recent pre-COVID service pattern).

 

[Man of Kent]

If there was enough money to finance any of these proposals, it would be better used for bus priority measures and better bus services. The whole population of the island is less than 150,000 and the bus network - widely reckoned to be one of the best in the UK - runs with virtually no subsidy at all. While there seems to be no definitive source, Island Line is rumoured to cost £4m annually to run, for income of only £1m.

 

[fgwrich]

Of all the current proposals, personally I feel that the extension to Ventnor probably carries the most weight. It is relatively simple, and requires little in the way of CPO / Demolition other than part of the industrial estate in Ventnor and a row of houses in Wroxall.

Google Maps

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goo.gl

 

[A0]

Of all the current proposals, personally I feel that the extension to Ventnor probably carries the most weight. It is relatively simple, and requires little in the way of CPO / Demolition other than part of the industrial estate in Ventnor and a row of houses in Wroxall.

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

goo.gl

There's also a small matter of a tunnel on the approach to Ventnor now owned and used by Southern Water - so you'd have some fairly costly rerouting of a water main around / through St Boniface Down.

 

[ainsworth74]

There's also a small matter of a tunnel on the approach to Ventnor now owned and used by Southern Water - so you'd have some fairly costly rerouting of a water main around / through St Boniface Down.

Still a heck of a lot more achievable (read: affordable) than the ideas above for getting back to Newport!! I obviously, as an enthusiast, would love the Island Line to become the Island Lines with routes from Ryde to Newport/Ventnor but let's be realistic here. The cost of re-opening the route to Newport would be absolutely eyewatering and would never ever make sense. So the only game in town (if at all!) is Ventnor.

 

[30907]

As shown here. Note the three green spots represent multiple bus bays - the actual number provided would be as required.
View attachment 83862

For some reason I had got the impression that the idea was to use the existing trackbed right into Newport and terminate just short of the old viaduct. This new build looks a better idea, though I would prefer a terminus as near Sea Street as possible (or at least by the road viaduct).

 

[A0]

Still a heck of a lot more achievable (read: affordable) than the ideas above for getting back to Newport!! I obviously, as an enthusiast, would love the Island Line to become the Island Lines with routes from Ryde to Newport/Ventnor but let's be realistic here. The cost of re-opening the route to Newport would be absolutely eyewatering and would never ever make sense. So the only game in town (if at all!) is Ventnor.

It's a difficult one - Newport has long been an aspiration for the IoW Steam Railway and pragmatically they could get to the outskirts of Newport i.e. somewhere around Cross Lane. The suggestion of a heritage railway with mainline running over it or vice versa is just opening a huge can of worms. The IoW Steam Railway would have to be brought up to the appropriate mainline standards, with things like disability access etc - in doing so that would probably destroy some of the charm of the line and lessen its tourist attraction status.

Ventnor is marginal - the fact the tunnel has seen re-use by a key utility introduces a complexity which wasn't there when the line closed. Equally Ventnor station was never close to the town to begin with. Add in, it used a fairly circuitous route to get to Ventnor from Shanklin. The current bus services are timed to do Ventnor to Shanklin in about 20 mins. The old rail route between Ventnor and Shanklin via Wroxall is about 6 miles - it's unlikely you'd be able to have a linespeed of more than 50 mph on the Island unless you spent absolutely squillions upgrading it - the rest of the route has a 45 mph speed limit. Allowing for a stop at Wroxall, the likelihood is the average speed would be circa 30 mph at best - the current Island line is 8.5 miles and takes 24 mins, so an average speed of just over 20 mph - so that 6 miles would probably be about 15 mins as an end to end journey time and you have a walk to the town centre and seafront to factor in which the bus doesn't.