UK face coverings discussion

[birchesgreen]

I'm afraid the 'maskivists' will need to learn to accept that some people simply cannot wear them, and they will have to get used to minding their own business instead of getting all worked up about what other people are doing.

Most people accept that not everyone can wear them, but you do not seem able to accept that some people are trying it on.

 

[MikeWM]

If there is no ordinary impact on normal life then there is no issue.

True, although I do have issues beyond mask-wearing, so the advice in this case is reasonable. I avoid dusting as much as possible, for example, because I'll have breathing problems for a day or so afterwards - which of course makes things worse eventually when I do have to dust.

 

[Wuffle]

I'm told Solihull Police PCSO's are in Touchwood Shopping Centre today telling people they must be wearing a card to say they are exempt.
Shocking and completely disguising. Officers are completely refusing to except the words "I'm exempt". Demanding that if they are exempt they needed to have filled in a form to say they are exempt and produce it to them at that moment.

Tweet from Solihull Touchwood Shopping Centre below is just as dreadful

https://twitter.com/TouchwoodTweets/status/1292376784034500613

Thats despite the fact anyone can buy/print a card like that, so I don't believe it holds any more weight than the words "I'm excempt".

Wouldn't it be nice if PCSO's and Shopping Centre Management actually read the guidance


Those who have an age, health or disability reason for not wearing a face covering should not be routinely asked to give any written evidence of this, this includes exemption cards. No person needs to seek advice or request a letter from a medical professional about their reason for not wearing a face covering.


Some people may feel more comfortable showing something that says they do not have to wear a face covering. This could be in the form of an exemption card, badge or even a home-made sign.


This is a personal choice and is not necessary in law.

( https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ngs-when-to-wear-one-and-how-to-make-your-own )

 

[DB]

Has anyone in that area taken it up with the police force?

As regards whether people are or aren't exempt, is it not fairly clear now that masks aren't making any difference anyway, so why worry about whehter or not someone is exempt? If they were, there would be evidence in the statistics showing a decline in infections when masks were mandated. In no country has this happened, so far as I am aware.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Most people accept that not everyone can wear them, but you do not seem able to accept that some people are trying it on.

Of course the irony is that if people weren't trying it on, those who do actually have issues would have it a lot easier.
Was it this thread or another someone was saying they had a bottle of water next to them on a train so they could claim they were drinking so they didn't have to wear as a mask? That just sounds like taking the mick a bit to me!

 

[greyman42]

Most people accept that not everyone can wear them, but you do not seem able to accept that some people are trying it on.

What if they are, I just get on with my day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Of course the irony is that if people weren't trying it on, those who do actually have issues would have it a lot easier.

Exactly. I find it bizarre that people oppose having a formal means of proving exemption when they'd presumably support a formal means of reserving disabled parking spaces for those needing them, i.e. the Blue Badge.

 

[Huntergreed]

Exactly. I find it bizarre that people oppose having a formal means of proving exemption when they'd presumably support a formal means of reserving disabled parking spaces for those needing them, i.e. the Blue Badge.

I don't see how this would work.

How does someone certify if a mask causes 'severe distress'?

Presumably you would also have to ban eating/drinking if you introduced a formal exemption scheme.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't see how this would work.

How does someone certify if a mask causes 'severe distress'?

How do you define any other mental condition, e.g. anxiety (which is likely at the root of any such "severe distress")? The answer is that a medical professional makes a professional judgement.

Presumably you would also have to ban eating/drinking if you introduced a formal exemption scheme.

Er, why?

 

[DB]

How do you define any other mental condition, e.g. anxiety (which is likely at the root of any such "severe distress")? The answer is that a medical professional makes a professional judgement.

And as already pointed out numerous times, there is not the capacity in the medical system - even under normal circumstances there tends to be long waiting lists for this sort of thing, and they are no doubt even longer now (if appointments are even beng scheduled at all).

It's not like something where you can go to the GP and get some antibiotics!

 

[WelshBluebird]

Tbh I don't think we should introduce a "formal" means, because to be honest, I don't think it is possible - especially when the exemptions are as vague as they are.
But it would be nice if people were just bloody honest.
Instead of some people claiming they have exemption, or having a bottle of water conveniently placed, be honest to yourself and others about the fact you disagree with the mask rule and thus are willing to break it.
Of course - policing that - well I have no idea of how you would or what the rules should be there. But this whole dance atm (and I am sorry, but I do refer back to the "bottle incident" post again) is just a joke.

 

[talldave]

I hope that eventually the mask "enforcers" making up the law will see a downturn in footfall and go out of business.

We seem to have a level playing field with no action taken against those who refuse to wear masks and no action taken against those making up their own laws.

 

[MikeWM]

Exactly. I find it bizarre that people oppose having a formal means of proving exemption when they'd presumably support a formal means of reserving disabled parking spaces for those needing them, i.e. the Blue Badge.

I think there are a few reasons it is problematic. Off the top of my head:


- It would take too long to implement - there's more than enough issues to occupy the health service after the last 6 months to be adding extra burden to it.

- Doctors would be reluctant to do it, even if they had the time and inclination. What if a doctor refused to issue an exemption to someone, and then that person gets ill (eg. has a severe asthma attack) due to having to wear a mask? The liability implications will make them opposed to having anything to do with it.

- It implies a sense of long-termism on the requirement, which hopefully no-one wants (and would require stronger legislation than the current 'emergency' powers)

- It is yet another step towards a 'papers please' society.

 

[Huntergreed]

How do you define any other mental condition, e.g. anxiety (which is likely at the root of any such "severe distress")? The answer is that a medical professional makes a professional judgement.

I suppose, but such a system would never be 100% perfect, which is a problem

Er, why?

There's enough trouble with people getting told off for eating/drinking onboard right now with the self-certification of exemption system. If you made it so you need a doctor's letter, surely it would be easier to simply say masks must be on unless you are exempt (ie no excuses to take them off, or it sort of falls apart). Not that I advocate this system in any way, nor do I endorse the use of masks in any way.

 

[bramling]

Yes.

We can't.

The rail industry has always had a smattering of staff who behave this way, and this pandemic has allowed authoritarians carte blanche to be rude and obnoxious. If you are rude back you can be removed from the train. The Unions are very strong. They hold all the cards. Be very careful when interacting with such people.


Some authoritarian staff start off by being rude in the hope that things will escalate; they can then say you have committed an offence and must be removed from the train.

Be very careful to remain calm and not to rise to any such provocation; it's not exactly a level playing field...

Northern have instructed their on-board staff staff:

I do not know if any other companies have issued such an instruction.

Of course the vast majority of staff will adhere to this, but I can't see the authoritarian ones sticking to this instruction, and indeed I've heard numerous reports of poor behaviour by a minority of staff. Any instances of poor behaviour should be reported, though it's unlikely to have much effect.

I don’t get why some staff are sticking their nose into masks. They don’t need to.

I'm fairly confident that people wearing masks on their chins aren't exempt.

Or the group of girls that got on a train without masks and only put them on when the security goons turned up.

It’s about time there was an acceptance that masks just aren’t working, and on top of that are causing needless conflicts and making life uncomfortable.

Meanwhile what they are doing is causing de-facto clinical waste to be deposited all over the place, which isn’t helpful either.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 21 Sep 2020 ==

Of course the irony is that if people weren't trying it on, those who do actually have issues would have it a lot easier.
Was it this thread or another someone was saying they had a bottle of water next to them on a train so they could claim they were drinking so they didn't have to wear as a mask? That just sounds like taking the mick a bit to me!

I don’t think that arguments holds true.

In fact, the opposite as the more people are not wearing masks the less likely it is for some vigilante to feel they can challenge.

There’s plenty of posts on social media where the topic of exemptions crops up and some Karen replies with something like “it’s tough luck people with exemptions should stay indoors to protect the rest of us”.

Better not to have such an ineffective and inflammatory policy in the first place, which was kind of what the likes of Harries and Van Tam were intimating back in the spring.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

I rushed for a train last Friday and it was busy. Every window seat was taken and I eventually found a table seat with one person occupying it (bay of 4). I did not wish to stand as I was tired and had heavy baggage. I had my sunflower lanyard (recently received in the post). The man took issue and when he saw 2 Rail Enforcement Officers walk through the train checking people were wearing masks, he asked them to remove me from the train as he did not feel safe (his exact words!). The officers took one look at me and pointed out I was exempt, so the man moved to another carriage.

Hysterical or not?

Incidentally he was around my age and I'm guessing he was Polish from his accent

 

[yorkie]

Age and nationality are irrelevant but yes I'd agree people like that are hysterical. I am pleased to see the hysterical brigade were not listened to on this occasion.

 

[trebor79]

Tbh I don't think we should introduce a "formal" means, because to be honest, I don't think it is possible - especially when the exemptions are as vague as they are.
But it would be nice if people were just bloody honest.
Instead of some people claiming they have exemption, or having a bottle of water conveniently placed, be honest to yourself and others about the fact you disagree with the mask rule and thus are willing to break it.
Of course - policing that - well I have no idea of how you would or what the rules should be there. But this whole dance atm (and I am sorry, but I do refer back to the "bottle incident" post again) is just a joke.

I have wondered to myself what would happen if a significant number of people started "concientiously objecting" to masks and stated their case when challenged.
I am firmly of the view that they are completely unsuitable and unhygienic in every day settings. I do tend to claim an exemption (a fairly flimsy one admittedly, but then the law is flimsy), but am finding myself wanting to say "Not wearing one because..."
I'd end up with a fine I guess, but I'd be prepared to not pay it and have my day in court. I'm not prepared for the ear bashing from my wife though, so I continue to either mask up when I feel pressured to do so or use my exemption.

 

[trainophile]

I rushed for a train last Friday and it was busy. Every window seat was taken and I eventually found a table seat with one person occupying it (bay of 4). I did not wish to stand as I was tired and had heavy baggage. I had my sunflower lanyard (recently received in the post). The man took issue and when he saw 2 Rail Enforcement Officers walk through the train checking people were wearing masks, he asked them to remove me from the train as he did not feel safe (his exact words!). The officers took one look at me and pointed out I was exempt, so the man moved to another carriage.

Hysterical or not?

Incidentally he was around my age and I'm guessing he was Polish from his accent

I was on a local GWR 3-coach 150 in Devon last week. Chatting with a woman on the platform who was panicking because she had touched something and didn't have her hand gel easily accessible in her bag. I gave her some of mine, the train arrived and we got on separate coaches - me at the front and her at the back. Five minutes later she appears in my coach and takes the very furthest seat at the front. The train wasn't particularly busy, probably 30-40%. I wondered why she had walked all the way through. A woman got on at the first stop and sat across the aisle from this lady, who immediately sprung up, dashed to the door and started berating the guard on the platform for lack of social distancing! He told her there was plenty of room but she was ranting on about needing two metres distance from anyone else. The (properly masked) newcomer said "it's only one metre with face masks on" but this didn't satisfy her. Eventually she strode along the platform and presumably got back on a different carriage.

I tell this story to show that the powers that be have got some people into such a panic that they must be nervous wrecks. It's so unnecessary.

 

[trebor79]

I tell this story to show that the powers that be have got some people into such a panic that they must be nervous wrecks. It's so unnecessary.

Thread drift but my parents were invited to a BBQ by another couple at the weekend. The other couple hadn't left their home wince March and had two bottles of all the condiments so they wouldn't have to touch stuff mum and dad touched.
They resisted the temptation to point out they'd have been handled by people in the shop...
This is the human mental cost of the government messaging.

 

[DB]

Thread drift but my parents were invited to a BBQ by another couple at the weekend. The other couple hadn't left their home wince March and had two bottles of all the condiments so they wouldn't have to touch stuff mum and dad touched.
They resisted the temptation to point out they'd have been handled by people in the shop...

Are this couple at genuine medical risk, or just paranoid?

 

[trebor79]

Are this couple at genuine medical risk, or just paranoid?

But of both. Wife had a kidney transplant 20 years ago, so is on immunosuppressants. Mind you, she's lived normally prior to covid and it seems the worst affects of covid are due to an overreaction by the immune system.
Regardless, they live in a quiet seaside town with plenty of beach and open heath, yet haven't gone beyond the garden gate. Indeed they are probably closer to other people in their own garden than they would be if they ventured out.

 

[Bikeman78]

What if they are, I just get on with my day.

Exactly. I don't care who wears a mask or not. It's none of my business.

 

[yorkie]

In schools, should kids not wearing face coverings be kept back at the end of lessons until those with face coverings, or wearing exemption lanyards, have left the room? Discuss!

 

[DB]

In schools, should kids not wearing face coverings be kept back at the end of lessons until those with face coverings, or wearing exemption lanyards, have left the room? Discuss!

Certainly not!

 

[Bletchleyite]

In schools, should kids not wearing face coverings be kept back at the end of lessons until those with face coverings, or wearing exemption lanyards, have left the room? Discuss!

As schools will deal with exemption formally (like they do anything else, e.g. a kid having to wear non-uniform shoes because of an injury or something) then this situation should not arise.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

In schools, should kids not wearing face coverings be kept back at the end of lessons until those with face coverings, or wearing exemption lanyards, have left the room? Discuss!

NO !!!!!!!!!!!

This would provide more opportunities for victimization at the school gates

I really hope this idea isn't seriously being contemplated...

Little Johnny - you did not wear a face covering today, go and sit on the naughty step until the other children have left the classroom...

 

[Bletchleyite]

If a child hasn't brought a face covering and is offered a disposable one and will not wear it, and the parent has not registered them with the school as exempt, they will be isolated and the parent called to collect. "Home you go", as "Angry People in Local Newspapers" on FB has it. Schools aren't like the rest of society - they are fully authoritarian. This is no different to the refusal to correctly wear any item of uniform - the mask is basically a uniform item, same as the tie or whatever.

Edit: Ah, I had assumed a school where they were mandatory, as some have chosen to do (and as academies are independent they can).

 

[yorkie]

I really hope this idea isn't seriously being contemplated...

It is not just "contemplated", it is happening; and in an area where masks are NOT compulsory but the local council told parents and schools that the Government guidance is that they "should" be worn. And some parents are desperately trying to convince the schools in that area to make it "mandatory".

Kids are also told they are putting people "at risk" if they do not wear them, again this is despite them not being mandatory [yet].

Some parents also want 'contacts of contacts' to isolate, and indeed for an entire yeargroup to isolate for 2 weeks each time 1 student in that year group tests positive.

The hysterical brigade are incredibly vocal and will not let up their battle any time soon!

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Some parents also want 'contacts of contacts' to isolate, and indeed for an entire yeargroup to isolate for 2 weeks each time 1 student in that year group tests positive.
The hysterical brigade are incredibly vocal and will not let up their battle any time soon!

Slightly OT but if that nonsense keeps up schools will be empty in the Winter and blended/at-home learning will come around naturally rather than be forced by government.

It's going to be a very long Winter at this rate.