Transfer of LNER HST 125s to East Midlands Railway (EMR)

[DB]

one would expect the target number of exLNER sets to be the number needed to deliver the service post Dec 2020.

That's not a lot of use if it's not feasible in the timescale, though!

 

[WesternLancer]

That's not a lot of use if it's not feasible in the timescale, though!

Note use of word 'target' - govt's like that, see for comparison covid testing 'targets'...

 

[DB]

Note use of word 'target' - govt's like that, see for comparison covid testing 'targets'...

There has to be a level of realism though - there is no point in setting a target if it's clearly completely impossible to achieve.

 

[WesternLancer]

There has to be a level of realism though - there is no point in setting a target if it's clearly completely impossible to achieve.

Indeed - but that would be a dialogue between train owner, EMR engineers and DfT. Q "Can you do it?" - A "yes we think we can".

We can only assume those 3 orgs believe it is possible, at least at some 'decision maker level'. But until they confirm or deny it...

 

[43 302]

Indeed - but that would be a dialogue between train owner, EMR engineers and DfT. Q "Can you do it?" - A "yes we think we can".

We can only assume those 3 orgs believe it is possible, at least at some 'decision maker level'. But until they confirm or deny it...

I don't think they think they can do it lol

 

[WesternLancer]

I don't think they think they can do it lol

so the question is more when will they admit it?

Today might have been a good day for that admission given the news media 'rail related stories' quota is used up by the "end of franchising" item....

 

[DB]

so the question is more when will they admit it?

Today might have been a good day for that admission given the news media 'rail related stories' quota is used up by the "end of franchising" item....

They dont' need to publicly admit it - they can just issue another dispensation for the existing sets.

 

[WesternLancer]

They dont' need to publicly admit it - they can just issue another dispensation for the existing sets.

True - but I suspect MPs will seek to embarrass DfT by asking parl questions about progress / delivery of their former promises.

 

[43 302]

They dont' need to publicly admit it - they can just issue another dispensation for the existing sets.

Wouldn't be as easy this time as I believe some of the stock is down to be handed back to the ROSCOs. 43299 for example should have left EMR by January.

 

[Domh245]

Wouldn't be as easy this time as I believe some of the stock is down to be handed back to the ROSCOs. 43299 for example should have left EMR by January.

Given the apparent lack of interest in the HSTs generally (bar the VP engined units!) I don't think the ROSCOs will mind an extension to their use with EMR. It's either the lease payments from EMR, or paying for them to be stored (or a trip to Rotherham/Newport/etc)

 

[43 302]

Given the apparent lack of interest in the HSTs generally (bar the VP engined units!) I don't think the ROSCOs will mind an extension to their use with EMR. It's either the lease payments from EMR, or paying for them to be stored (or a trip to Rotherham/Newport/etc)

All depends on if they have further use after EMR which a few of them (admittedly not many) do. For the ones that don't then I'm sure an extension would be made of course but it's still an extra step to go through.

 

[Domh245]

All depends on if they have further use after EMR which a few of them (admittedly not many) do. For the ones that don't then I'm sure an extension would be made of course but it's still an extra step to go through.

Interesting that there is apparently some interest, could you expand on who? I'm not sure who it could be other than XC, as the VP cars seem to be the 'must-haves' based on how quickly they've been snapped up, you'd only want the ex-LNER powercars if you're after MTU engines but without the ATP equipment - even then, aren't there already excess ex-LNER powercars knocking about? Either that or it's people after a specific powercar for preservation, who I'm sure will be told to wait given that they'll still pay the same price for it, just a few months later and with the ROSCOs bank account slightly higher than it would have been.

 

[43 302]

Interesting that there is apparently some interest, could you expand on who? I'm not sure who it could be other than XC, as the VP cars seem to be the 'must-haves' based on how quickly they've been snapped up, you'd only want the ex-LNER powercars if you're after MTU engines but without the ATP equipment - even then, aren't there already excess ex-LNER powercars knocking about? Either that or it's people after a specific powercar for preservation, who I'm sure will be told to wait given that they'll still pay the same price for it, just a few months later and with the ROSCOs bank account slightly higher than it would have been.

It's not XC, they've already got 43208 + 43239 and I highly, highly doubt it's for preservation. It doesn't make sense either, I agree. I can't expand on who, as I haven't been told! Believe me I asked these questions too.

Also something that I don't think has been mentioned yet is that some of the NL0x sets have exams upcoming. Some of them won't receive them either.

 

[DB]

It's not XC, they've already got 43208 + 43239 and I highly, highly doubt it's for preservation. It doesn't make sense either, I agree. I can't expand on who, as I haven't been told! Believe me I asked these questions too.

Part of the fleet is still stored at Ely, so there are power cars available if needed.

I'm slightly surprised that no power cars at all (all former operators) have yet been scrapped, and very little of the LNER trailer fleet - the only ones of those gone are the two non-standard sets (EC64 and NL65, with a few carriages from the former saved for the NRM (1) and fire service training (2)), plus the TSs removed from the three Porterbrook-owned sets (one TS from each) which were destined for EMR.

 

[43 302]

NL59 was moved from Gascoigne wood to Neville Hill today by 66710 as 5Z49. It's apparently for spares recovery. NL57 and NL58 will be the last sets to enter service, so only four out of the original nine.

 

[WesternLancer]

NL59 was moved from Gascoigne wood to Neville Hill today by 66710 as 5Z49. It's apparently for spares recovery. NL57 and NL58 will be the last sets to enter service, so only four out of the original nine.

so does that mean the plan is to run the EMR services with just 4 HST sets come January 2021 after the dispensation expires?

 

[DB]

so does that mean the plan is to run the EMR services with just 4 HST sets come January 2021 after the dispensation expires?

That wouldn't work without very drastic timetable cuts. Seems most likely that several of the existing sets will be kept on. In theory it's only until May, assuming it's not slipped again.

 

[43096]

so does that mean the plan is to run the EMR services with just 4 HST sets come January 2021 after the dispensation expires?

All the EMR HST sets, of whatever origin, have PRM dispensations to 31/12/20, so you can’t read anything into the 01/01/21 situation.

 

[43055]

That wouldn't work without very drastic timetable cuts. Seems most likely that several of the existing sets will be kept on. In theory it's only until May, assuming it's not slipped again.

I wouldn't say drastic. The 180s are due in service in December which will give 3 more units and you can tweak the diagrams at st Pancras to reduce the hour layover and empty stock moves you could cover most of the daytime workings.

Personally I see the 4 red sets continuing until May when the 360s are expected to come but obviously they can't run past December at the moment.

 

[WesternLancer]

All the EMR HST sets, of whatever origin, have PRM dispensations to 31/12/20, so you can’t read anything into the 01/01/21 situation.

Thanks for this point.

 

[Swimbar]

All the EMR HST sets, of whatever origin, have PRM dispensations to 31/12/20, so you can’t read anything into the 01/01/21 situation.

Agreed, but in the current climate that could easily be extended.

 

[Bald Rick]

Agreed, but in the current climate that could easily be extended.

They can’t be extended.

However new dispensations can be applied for. (And will be in this case). It’s then up to the Minister to decide which groups he wants to receive angry letters from.

 

[43096]

Agreed, but in the current climate that could easily be extended.

Yes, but the point was that nothing can be inferred about how many or which sets might get new dispensations as the existing dispensations all expire on the same date.

 

[Swimbar]

Not sure that HM HM Government are particularly bothered about angry letters at the moment!

 

[Domh245]

Is this the point where with the benefit of hindsight people decide that the money spent on getting the ex-LNER sets into a usable condition would have been better spent on targeted accessibility upgrades to the ex-EMT sets (or even a whole load of taxis?)

 

[DB]

I wouldn't say drastic. The 180s are due in service in December which will give 3 more units and you can tweak the diagrams at st Pancras to reduce the hour layover and empty stock moves you could cover most of the daytime workings.

Personally I see the 4 red sets continuing until May when the 360s are expected to come but obviously they can't run past December at the moment.

It would be a significant reduction in sets (the ex-GC sets are are barely more compliant than the ex-EMT ones) - and the 180s are only 5 car. Replacing 8-car and 6-car trains with fewer 5-car trains would hardly fit with the whole distancing thing.

And three out of four 180s in service is highly optimistic, given their reliability record.

 

[WesternLancer]

It would be a significant reduction in sets (the ex-GC sets are are barely more compliant than the ex-EMT ones) - and the 180s are only 5 car. Replacing 8-car and 6-car trains with fewer 5-car trains would hardly fit with the whole distancing thing.

And three out of four 180s in service is highly optimistic, given their reliability record.

all good points of course, tho I think the ex GC sets have reliability problems too. Isn't there only one in service at the mo - or are more out now?
My personal bet is on a dispensation to be extended - announcement over xmas period probably...

 

[43096]

Is this the point where with the benefit of hindsight people decide that the money spent on getting the ex-LNER sets into a usable condition would have been better spent on targeted accessibility upgrades to the ex-EMT sets (or even a whole load of taxis?)

The sensible solution would have been to take some ex-GWR TSDs out of Long Marston and put them in the existing sets, and fit PIS to those sets rather than the ex-LNER sets. But DfT knows best....

 

[43055]

It would be a significant reduction in sets (the ex-GC sets are are barely more compliant than the ex-EMT ones) - and the 180s are only 5 car. Replacing 8-car and 6-car trains with fewer 5-car trains would hardly fit with the whole distancing thing.

And three out of four 180s in service is highly optimistic, given their reliability record.

Yes it will be shorter trains but I find certainly in first class that the Nottingham HST's are mostly empty when I have used them.

Highly optimistic that 3 180's will be out but I'm sure EMR need to use them quite a bit once the HST's are gone and the Corby 360's are in service.

all good points of course, tho I think the ex GC sets have reliability problems too. Isn't there only one in service at the mo - or are more out now?
My personal bet is on a dispensation to be extended - announcement over xmas period probably...

When they arrived the weren't in the best of states but they seem to be reliable now. It is still only 1 2+6 out at the moment but 2 Angel power cars are around a NL 2+8 set. There are still 1 power car and some coaches up at Barrow Hill but I think this is because there is not a lot of room at Etches Park atm with 4 180's and a 170 being stabled and being used on training.

The sensible solution would have been to take some ex-GWR TSDs out of Long Marston and put them in the existing sets, and fit PIS to those sets rather than the ex-LNER sets. But DfT knows best....

But would that solve the issue though? Is just swapping the blue to red HST's just for PIS and a different disabled toilet or are there more items like handrails and the seats.

 

[DB]

But would that solve the issue though? Is just swapping the blue to red HST's just for PIS and a different disabled toilet or are there more items like handrails and the seats.

It's not going to solve all issues, but none of the proposed solutions will - its pretty futile to go to all this hassle and expense just for the sake of having something slightly-less non-compliant for a few months. But of course this is the DfT...