London Euston to Salford and Bolton

[Philip]

Now that the line between Manchester and Bolton and Preston has been upgraded to intercity standard, is it time for one of the hourly Avanti services to be extended to Bolton, with a call at Salford Crescent en route? Seems a bit odd Stockport and Wigan having a frequent London service but the places above not having anything direct.

I know the current platforms at Salford aren't long enough, but perhaps the up fast on the east side of the station could have a long platform built and be used for bi-directional working of the London services, together with the hourly Scotland services?

Are these ideas feasible and should Avanti be looking into this seriously? Which of the current tri-hourly services would be the best bet to extend to Bolton?

 

[Ianno87]

Now that the line between Manchester and Bolton and Preston has been upgraded to intercity standard, is it time for one of the hourly Avanti services to be extended to Bolton, with a call at Salford Crescent en route? Seems a bit odd Stockport and Wigan having a frequent London service but the places above not having anything direct.

I know the current platforms at Salford aren't long enough, but perhaps the up fast on the east side of the station could have a long platform built and be used for bi-directional working of the London services, together with the hourly Scotland services?

Are these ideas feasible and should Avanti be looking into this seriously? Which of the current tri-hourly services would be the best bet to extend to Bolton?

For as long as it involves travelling through the operational dog's breakfast that is the Castlefield Corridor to get to Bolton, it will be a no.

First Group's 2012 West Coast Franchise-that-Never-Was proposed a Bolton-London service; I presume a daily extension of an existing Manchester-Euston service.

Bolton is well served with connecting trains both to Piccadilly and Wigan, which satisfy the market well anyway.


Salford Crescent: With the frequency of service, no chance of getting a Down train across to the Up to call and back again. You'd just omit the stop entirely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

One word: Castlefield. So no.

Wigan and Stockport have Avanti services because it is operationally convenient to serve them, not because they need them. It's a bit like the way the smaller Merseyrail stations (other than Capenhurst) still have the 4tph - it's just easier.

Re Salford Crescent at some point the bullet is going to need to be bitten to rebuild it to long platforms, though.

 

[telstarbox]

Although Salford is growing as an employment centre, most of the development is around Media City (which has a frequent if slow tram service from Piccadilly), or the riverside area which is just about walkable, or a short taxi ride, from Piccadilly. Salford Crescent isn't really in the right place.

 

[Philip]

Castlefield is obviously the stumbling block, but perhaps either the Alderley Edge-Southport or Hazel Grove-Blackpool services could be diverted via either Chat Moss or Denton and Victoria, to free up a path.

Does Salford itself (not Media City or Chapel Street/Spinningfields areas) have a market for London services?

 

[Ianno87]

Castlefield is obviously the stumbling block, but perhaps the Alderley Edge-Southport could be diverted via either Chat Moss or Denton and Victoria, to free up a path.

Pendolinos, with end doors and passengers with luggage are not ideal for Castlefield, due to their dwell times. Also not helped by 13/14 at Piccadilly being long and curved (with visual obstructions) so dispatch takes time as well, as the whole train can't be seen by one member of staff.

Does Salford itself (not Media City or Chapel Street/Spinningfields areas) have a market for London services?

I'd say not particularly; it has no 'city centre' as such (Salford Shopping City doesn't really count), instead a number of disparate local town centres and residential / industrial areas.

 

[telstarbox]

Another factor is that the Pendolinos terminating at Piccadilly are serviced in the layover time (taking off rubbish, loading catering supplies) which can't be done on the through platforms.

 

[nr758123]

Castlefield is obviously the stumbling block, but perhaps either the Alderley Edge-Southport or Hazel Grove-Blackpool services could be diverted via either Chat Moss or Denton and Victoria, to free up a path.

It seems to be quite common to suggest sending cross-Manchester trains via Denton and Ashton Moss, as a way of addressing congestion issues elsewhere or introducing new services which would otherwise be impossible.

What tends to be overlooked is that Ashton Moss to Victoria is already a congested two track railway carrying six train an hour, a mix of stopping services and expresses, with poor punctuality. Trying to fit more services in is just asking for trouble.

 

[Ianno87]

It seems to be quite common to suggest sending cross-Manchester trains via Denton and Ashton Moss, as a way of addressing congestion issues elsewhere or introducing new services which would otherwise be impossible.

What tends to be overlooked is that Ashton Moss to Victoria is already a congested two track railway carrying six train an hour, a mix of stopping services and expresses, with poor punctuality. Trying to fit more services in is just asking for trouble.

Never mind getting a right turn path at Heaton Norris and roughly tripling the Stockport-Manchester journey time.

Always in the "solution looking for problem" box.

 

[JKF]

Sooner or later they’re just going to have to build the Piccadilly (low level) to Central (GMex) tunnel, aren’t they?

 

[Sweetjesus]

I think the idea is feasible (apart from serving Salford) if the capacity at Castlefield corridor is freed up.

Post COVID-19, we might be seeing spare capacity on that route.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the idea is feasible (apart from serving Salford) if the capacity at Castlefield corridor is freed up.

Post COVID-19, we might be seeing spare capacity on that route.

If they have any sense they won't fill that capacity, as otherwise we are back to square one again. You don't have to fill every path. It's best not to, indeed.

If Castlefield can be lopped back to about 8 trains per hour per direction, it'll be reliable again, just like it was in the late 1990s before the various frequency increases North Western Trains and Virgin/XC/TPE put in place. Don't let's clog it up with half-empty Pendolinos just because of some argument that Bolton needs a through London service just because somewhere else obscure has one because it's operationally convenient.

Having said that, one of the various post-HS2 proposals had a London-Manchester-Scotland service included, replacing the London-Brum-Scotland one and presumably also replacing TPE's route (as HS2 would provide a Brum-Scotland service), which would I guess mean Bolton could be included.

 

[Sweetjesus]

I misread the OP, I assumed this would be some kind of occasional service - much like Avanti's plans to run some of their trains to Walsall.

I agree, hourly would be too much to justify the extension.

 

[Starmill]

One evening train from London would be quite feasible to extend to Bolton, as it would be around 2000 that it is passing through Manchester Piccadilly.

But it would have set up costs, and of necessity at the moment be barely used. We are meant to be trying to save money.

 

[Philip]

One evening train from London would be quite feasible to extend to Bolton, as it would be around 2000 that it is passing through Manchester Piccadilly.

But it would have set up costs, and of necessity at the moment be barely used. We are meant to be trying to save money.

What would the set up costs be?

Would 6:30am be a feasible time to start a southbound service from Bolton, relating to Castlefield capacity?

 

[Starmill]

What would the set up costs be?

Would 6:30am be a feasible time to start a southbound service from Bolton, relating to Castlefield capacity?

Identifying, planning and securing the rights on a path, ensuring a pool of competent crew, resourcing a set for a new longer diagram, or two in the case of your morning service, ensuring staff availability for dispatch and any associated station access fees at Bolton, plus setting up new fares and doing marketing if desired. And then the initial cost of using the extra resources (wages, energy, access, maintenance) for the run-in period when almost nobody will use it.

In a similar manner to LNER's London to Sunderland services, it could be done as a token gesture or a committed contract obligation (or both), but it would never represent value for money. It'd be one stop early in the morning or late in the evening, and with a lot of hassle for a completely empty train.

A somewhat less poor value option could be to withdraw the 1757 London Euston to Lancaster service, and extend a London to Manchester service to Lancaster, calling intermediately at Bolton and Preston. The Tamworth and Lichfield Trent Valley calls would need to be accommodated on another service in that case. Very unlikely for a variety of reasons, not least wanting to block the path out.

 

[Trackman]

Pendolinos, with end doors and passengers with luggage are not ideal for Castlefield, due to their dwell times. Also not helped by 13/14 at Piccadilly being long and curved (with visual obstructions) so dispatch takes time as well, as the whole train can't be seen by one member of staff.

The main problem with P14/13 if we got back to previous passenger levels and they diverted one of the hourly services it would be absolutely rammed with people getting on or off, god knows about the precious dwell time.

 

[Purple Orange]

The only way I could see this happening is if the TPE Man Airport-Scotland services were merged with one of the Avanti London-Manchester route, thus omitting Manchester Airport. Oxford Road would need to omitted too. No additional paths through Castlefield would be needed with one fewer service south of Piccadilly.

I’m unsure how much benefit this could bring, given that terminating at Piccadilly 1-12 is far more reliable and any delays on the Castlefield corridor are risked spreading on to the London services. What is far more important to the Greater Manchester boroughs is a fastvand frequent service in to central Manchester.

IMHO I would not touch the London services and limit long distance services through Castlefield to as few as possible.

 

[Philip]

Or TPE could extend their own service to London and at the same time create a direct Man Airport-London link, via Wilmslow and Crewe.

 

[Purple Orange]

Or TPE could extend their own service to London and at the same time create a direct Man Airport-London link, via Wilmslow and Crewe.

What benefit would there be to a London-Manchester Airport service? The airport needs to be linked to towns within it’s catchment area. Either way, Bolton, just like the other GM towns should just be connected to London through Manchester. Oldham, Bury, Rochdale, Ashton, Altrincham all do better with high frequency services to central Manchester. Stockport being the exception for obvious reasons.

 

[The Planner]

What benefit would there be to a London-Manchester Airport service? The airport needs to be linked to towns within it’s catchment area. Either way, Bolton, just like the other GM towns should just be connected to London through Manchester. Oldham, Bury, Rochdale, Ashton, Altrincham all do better with high frequency services to central Manchester. Stockport being the exception for obvious reasons.

London Midland/LNWR want(ed) to exactly that, extend the Crewe services to the airport.

 

[Philip]

The Castlefield problem is obviously a valid one and for that reason an hourly service is probably nigh-on impossible currently. However, I think people are underestimating the potential popularity of a token service each way, departing Bolton in time for a London arrival before 9am and then leaving London around 6pm to cater for both commuters and day-trippers. The Bolton-Manchester corridor is very busy normally and has plenty of long-distance passengers using it, including for London. I would say there is a bigger market for Bolton-London than there is for Tamworth, Blackpool and Telford for example.

Cutting the Lancaster token was mentioned above. How about a bit of shuffling around to allow for a new 390 diagram which leaves either Lancaster or Preston approx 05:30-06:00, and then calls at Bolton 06:20, Stafford 07:40, Milton Keynes 08:15 and arrival into Euston 08:45? Same calling pattern for the return. Chorley and Salford could be added if the coaches off the platform don't interfere with other train movements. Platforms 13-14 at Manchester would then not be an issue and Avanti could tempt more passengers to use the service by offering cheaper advance fares from Bolton for the direct compared to fares involving a change at Manchester.

 

[Sweetjesus]

London Midland/LNWR want(ed) to exactly that, extend the Crewe services to the airport.

What has prevented them doing that? Was it lack of platform capacity at the airport?

 

[Bletchleyite]

London Midland/LNWR want(ed) to exactly that, extend the Crewe services to the airport.

More as a means of "railheading" for their budget service. Which interestingly didn't work when FNW did it (those trains literally were one man, dog and bicycle, and I think they only lasted one timetable period, unlike the Victoria service which came close to making money), though admittedly the LNR service would be both faster and more frequent. Though if Avanti did it nobody would use it, I reckon.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 19 Sep 2020 ==

Cutting the Lancaster token was mentioned above. How about a new 390 diagram which leaves either Lancaster or Preston approx 05:30-06:00, and then calls at Bolton 06:20, Crewe 07:20, Stafford 07:40 and arrival into Euston 08:45? Same calling pattern for the return. Chorley and Salford could be added if the coaches off the platform don't interfere with other train movements. Platforms 13-14 at Manchester would then not be an issue and Avanti could tempt more passengers to use the service by advertising cheaper advance fares from Bolton for the direct compared to fares involving a change at Manchester.

Because you are then missing out the largest InterCity passenger source/destination outside London?

But anyway, it'd be like Blackpool - utterly pointless unless you need somewhere to send a unit to free up a Preston platform. It's a quick walk over the bridge at Picc.

 

[Boo_]

It would be better to run from Blackpool / Preston to Chorley then onto Bolton but I don't think Salford would be worth stopping at. this would give Stoke on Trent/ Macclesfield a train to Blackpool and Preston.

 

[Purple Orange]

No London train (or XC train) will be going through Castlefield. If there was to be a Blackpool-Stoke service, it would really just be a rearrangement of the existing services, swapping with Hazel Grove. However speaking as a commuter on the Crewe branch, the worst thing that happened to the service was creating the regular service to Bolton, and then Wigan, and then Southport (it’s doing the reverse of what should be happening). What was a very reliable service, became unreliable overnight.

(Until a solution to NPR can be agreed and built, I would take away any trains that are not heading to the airport away from P13).

 

[Boo_]

Something that could work would be to link the line from Hyde road alongside of Ardwick depot and link up with the line from Ashbury's to Victrola. there only a scrap yard and container yard in the way. Would also work with a Station alongside Etihad stadium as there plans for a new arena like Manchester arena.

 

[Wtloild]

A few years ago, there might've been some demand for direct Bolton-London services (if at all possible).
Improved speed & capacity on Bolton to Piccadilly services thanks to electrification & introduction of 331s has made this less of an issue.

From just up the line at Chorley, I usually travel to London via Preston rather than Manchester.
Could improved times between Wigan & Bolton - e.g. the mothballed electrification of the Westhoughton line make Wigan the interchange of choice for Bolton-London travellers?

 

[Ianno87]

A few years ago, there might've been some demand for direct Bolton-London services (if at all possible).
Improved speed & capacity on Bolton to Piccadilly services thanks to electrification & introduction of 331s has made this less of an issue.

From just up the line at Chorley, I usually travel to London via Preston rather than Manchester.
Could improved times between Wigan & Bolton - e.g. the mothballed electrification of the Westhoughton line make Wigan the interchange of choice for Bolton-London travellers?

Given there's two or three trains per hour that only take 17-20 minutes, it's hard to see how it could be much better. What previously helped was diversion of trains from Bolton to start/terminate at North Western to aid the connection and give some fast itineraries....but unfortunately Southport's need to have a direct service to Manchester Piccadilly has taken precedence.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Maybe, just maybe, it would be even better to direct long-distance stuff (prepares for horror story of replies) e.g. the hourly Scotland and hourly Windermere/Barrow paths to Victoria via Bolton, and thence offering a half-hourly electric service (4 or 6 car 331 depending on what works in the grand scheme) from Blackpool North via Preston and Bolton to Piccadilly and the Airport. This would mean folk off Intercity trains at Bolton and onto more suitable commuter-style trains, as well as meaning Bolton gets a proper, decent half-hourly service with some electric, fast trains to Piccadilly and the Airport. Said Blackpool service would pick up stops at the likes of Adlington and Blackrod where needed, as part of the wider timetable.

Where there's a 'dead' path via Wigan, make it a Preston starter using a 3/323 and stopping at Leyland, Euxton and Wigan. It would be interworked in a half-hourly path from Haydock to Slade Lane Jn, and therefore the Llandudno TfW would use the 'other hourly' path in each direction. Both services can then go to the Airport as now, as you free up space from the Scottish service going into Victoria.

If Southport and its 769s then get a half-hourly service via Bolton and Ordsall Lane through Manchester to Crewe via Stockport. This would result in the Airport line getting a Wilmslow terminator (using the siding to reverse if needed), so connections being made there and a conflicting move gone. This means Bolton now goes up to quarter-hourly over the Windsor Link and with local priorities far more cared for. A Stockport connection is also assured every 30 minutes, good for Intercity services to all points south thereof. You then just chuck a Kirkby and a Wigan Wallgate starter into the mix via Walkden to Rochdale via Victoria, using that lovely new bay platform and not making a conflicting move at Victoria East / Miles Platting.