Cases where modes duplicate each other - what would you remove?

[py_megapixel]

The UK does seem to do rather a lot of duplicating trains with buses, and other modes do occasionally duplicate each other, for example Fleetwood to Blackpool can be done via pretty much the same route on either the bus or the tram.

Assuming you have control over all public transport in the UK - are there any services you would withdraw for this reason? Or any that you would keep despite it?

 

[Bald Rick]

The obvious one is the rail line down the Conwy Valley.

 

[LSWR Cavalier]

One I should not remove is the North Wales Coast, because train and bus are quite different
Train ist fast, expensive, infrequent - Penmaenmawr is a request stop, two-hour gaps

The bus runs four times an hour, cheap, lots of stops, goes through the villages, takes much longer
After calling at Dwygyfylchi it has to go west to the roundabout on the A55 before proceeding towards Llandudno

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sometimes a parallel bus service provides the "local local service" to a railway line and is thus worth keeping. But I would look at making connectivity between the two easier in timetable, route and fare terms, at least in urban areas but I still see a big case for a "Verbundtarif" for the whole of Wales in particular.

The Blackpool bus route 1 is an oddity, though - I think it exists because the tram couldn't meet capacity a lot of the time, as the old trams only allowed a very small number of standees. I struggle to see the point in it now - possibly it actually earns its keep on non-Blackpool ENCTS passes.

Where you have an infrequent rail service and an infrequent bus service, co-ordinating the timetables of the two is of benefit.

 

[RT4038]

The UK does seem to do rather a lot of duplicating trains with buses, and other modes do occasionally duplicate each other, for example Fleetwood to Blackpool can be done via pretty much the same route on either the bus or the tram.

Assuming you have control over all public transport in the UK - are there any services you would withdraw for this reason? Or any that you would keep despite it?

I would say that it is pretty unusual that two modes are exactly duplicating one another. Buses generally have more stops to trains, and often have more convenient stops in the places that do have stations, vs. trains are faster between stations. It is very hard to generalise, because no two locations have exactly the same conditions.
For example: between Rugby and Northampton there is a train service taking 20 min. and two bus services, taking 75 min or 105 min. One of the bus services more or less follows the line of rail, but has 40 stops rather than 1 on the railway. The bus stops are more convenient for the centres of all the towns served by rail. But of course not everyone is going to & from the centres. Generally rail is going to be more convenient, but if you live some distance from the station but near a bus stop, the bus will be more convenient. Although the bus service does compete (in a minor way) with rail, it is not significant.

 

[A0]

I would say that it is pretty unusual that two modes are exactly duplicating one another. Buses generally have more stops to trains, and often have more convenient stops in the places that do have stations, vs. trains are faster between stations. It is very hard to generalise, because no two locations have exactly the same conditions.
For example: between Rugby and Northampton there is a train service taking 20 min. and two bus services, taking 75 min or 105 min. One of the bus services more or less follows the line of rail, but has 40 stops rather than 1 on the railway. The bus stops are more convenient for the centres of all the towns served by rail. But of course not everyone is going to & from the centres. Generally rail is going to be more convenient, but if you live some distance from the station but near a bus stop, the bus will be more convenient. Although the bus service does compete (in a minor way) with rail, it is not significant.

Well the Rugby - Northampton one shows where the bus has an advantage - the train only serves Long Buckby, but the buses serve other places like Harlestone, West Haddon and Crick, which the train can't.

I think in virtually all cases the two have grown up around each other - each making a case for their own market.

There *might* be a case for leaving Stourbridge Junc - Stourbridge Town to local buses and maybe Wrexham General - Central as well.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There *might* be a case for leaving Stourbridge Junc - Stourbridge Town to local buses and maybe Wrexham General - Central as well.

Rose Hill Marple would be another (though it's a convenient terminus and turnaround point) - but it'd only really work with a properly integrated joint-tariff bus, not just whatever commercial ones happen to be there already.

The other thing you could do with the likes of Stourbridge is replace it with a completely unstaffed (other than maybe a security guard), free airport style automated people mover.

 

[markymark2000]

for example Fleetwood to Blackpool can be done via pretty much the same route on either the bus or the tram.

This is due to Blackpool Transport weirdly deciding this is how things should be done. I suppose it must be viable else, as a municipal company, the council wouldn't be best pleased.

The UK does seem to do rather a lot of duplicating trains with buses, and other modes do occasionally duplicate each other, for example Fleetwood to Blackpool can be done via pretty much the same route on either the bus or the tram.

Assuming you have control over all public transport in the UK - are there any services you would withdraw for this reason? Or any that you would keep despite it?

See, the issue you have here is buses 99% of the time do not duplicate trains. While they may run along similar routes, buses provide a more door to door journey. It's not viable for you to ask elderly to walk 2 miles to the train station so they can go 1 stop and then walk another mile to go shopping.
As for the other way round, you can't take trains off as you are then making longer distance trips not viable with public transport.

You can not just cut 1 mode of transport in most cases as they serve different markets. If however subsidised buses duplicated subsidised trains or trams, you have a bit more of an argument but even then, it depends on the local needs.


The few ideas mentioned above of the very small scale closures, could work but you will lose overall customers as a result so it should only be done where subsidy is that high, an alternative needs looking at.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's not viable for you to ask elderly to walk 2 miles to the train station so they can go 1 stop and then walk another mile to go shopping.

Which is why in sensible countries the bus runs round their housing estate to take them to the station, then from the station to where they're going at the other end.

It'd be interesting to compare demand for bus vs. rail in PTE areas where passes are valid on rail with everywhere else.

 

[markymark2000]

Which is why in sensible countries the bus runs round their housing estate to take them to the station, then from the station to where they're going at the other end.

It'd be interesting to compare demand for bus vs. rail in PTE areas where passes are valid on rail with everywhere else.

But even then, an example I would use the Kirkby to Liverpool on the 20/21. Duplicated the train line for 90% of the journey but both run happily alongside eachother. Passengers choose which is best for them. The bus carries people locally and the train carries longer distance despite running alongside eachother. Anyone going to/from Kirkby Town Centre must use the bus and if you told these people you have to get a bus to the train station, catch the train to Kirkby then get the bus into the city centre, they would just come off public transport.
Similar could be said for the Stagecoach 216 vs Metrolink. Both carry passengers and are very busy as people base it off which mode is closest to their origin and destination and the price. If every mode was made the same price, that elimates 1 issue but if the tram is cut and people are going to Cornbrook, they will likely switch to using their car. If the bus is cut, people won't walk so far to the tram stop so then they switch to their car as the walk to the tram stop is too far.
Such ideas to completely cut a mode of transport are 99% bonkers. They would be a step back for getting people onto public transport and would lead to huge congestion issues with people getting back into their cars because of the inconvenience of changing modes so many times to make a journey. The only exception is Blackpool where is makes more sense as south of Cleveleys, there are only a few areas which the bus stops but the tram doesn't, in some cases, other bus stops are available close by though for the 3/4.

 

[Bald Rick]

But even then, an example I would use the Kirkby to Liverpool on the 20/21. Duplicated the train line for 90% of the journey but both run happily alongside eachother. Passengers choose which is best for them. The bus carries people locally and the train carries longer distance despite running alongside eachother. Anyone going to/from Kirkby Town Centre must use the bus and if you told these people you have to get a bus to the train station, catch the train to Kirkby then get the bus into the city centre, they would just come off public transport.
Similar could be said for the Stagecoach 216 vs Metrolink. Both carry passengers and are very busy as people base it off which mode is closest to their origin and destination and the price. If every mode was made the same price, that elimates 1 issue but if the tram is cut and people are going to Cornbrook, they will likely switch to using their car. If the bus is cut, people won't walk so far to the tram stop so then they switch to their car as the walk to the tram stop is too far.
Such ideas to completely cut a mode of transport are 99% bonkers. They would be a step back for getting people onto public transport and would lead to huge congestion issues with people getting back into their cars because of the inconvenience of changing modes so many times to make a journey. The only exception is Blackpool where is makes more sense as south of Cleveleys, there are only a few areas which the bus stops but the tram doesn't, in some cases, other bus stops are available close by though for the 3/4.

I agree with you in principle, but Blackpool isn’t the only exception.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anyone going to/from Kirkby Town Centre must use the bus and if you told these people you have to get a bus to the train station, catch the train to Kirkby then get the bus into the city centre, they would just come off public transport.

The thing I'd love to know is...why? If this was Germany, that's exactly what would happen. You'd take the train to Kirkby, and as you walked out of the station there would be a shuttle bus to the shopping/business centres waiting there for you.

Even in London where you'd have to pay a separate bus fare, that would probably happen - people would take the Tube then connect to a bus.

So what gives elsewhere?

 

[py_megapixel]

So what gives elsewhere?

The answer is that cars as a mode of transport are too attractive. In particular the fact that anything up to a medium-sized town will usually have free or very cheap parking, and wide roads which are easy to drive on. The only way public transport can remain competitive for car users is by emulating the car experience as closely as possible, while either being cheaper, or marketing themselves as "green", or appealing to people who want to have a drink out.

 

[CBlue]

The thing I'd love to know is...why? If this was Germany, that's exactly what would happen. You'd take the train to Kirkby, and as you walked out of the station there would be a shuttle bus to the shopping/business centres waiting there for you.

Even in London where you'd have to pay a separate bus fare, that would probably happen - people would take the Tube then connect to a bus.

So what gives elsewhere?

Often in London most TfL bus services run late at decent enough frequencies to make a reasonable connection. The nearest railway station to me with a bus service is five miles away, and the bus home is unfortunately hourly at this point and timed to depart the railway station stop five minutes before most trains arrive from London! Poor connections are often the reason - that and for infrequent users, getting the information in the first place isn't always straightforward for an unfamiliar area.

 

[London Trains]

London (particularly the suburbs) has the advantage that there are buses which run through lots of the residential areas and connect them to the nearest station.