Unpaid Fare Notice - Advice Needed

[Claire]

My partner travelled from Leeds to London Kings Cross on 06 Aug 2010 on a ''special offer'' £5 single advance fare ticket (his ticket was NOT checked on this particular journey)

He then travelled back from London Kings Cross to Leeds on 09 Aug 2010 when he was asked for his ticket by the ticket inspector on board the train (again this ticket was a £5 single advance fare)

He produced his ticket & seat reservation BUT then realised he did not have the ''special offer'' voucher which is meant to be presented with the ticket & seat reservation (and as nobody had checked his ticket on his outward journey he did not even realise he did not have this voucher on him until the return journey)

He has now been issued with a penalty fare and been asked to pay £111 in 10 days - obviously this is a lot of money and the most annoying thing is that he ACTUALLY did have the ticket

He frequently travels on this route and often takes advantage of the special offer advance purchase tickets with the voucher and so this is a total oversight on his part

Additionally as he had paid for his ticket (& it was just the voucher missing) then he was not fare dodging!

(On a separate occasion I travelled with a friend on a similar voucher offer on this route and when we offered the ticket inspector the voucher we were told that they DID NOT need to see it!!)

I called the Revenue Protection Support Services today who were VERY VERY rude and said I need to write in (I only had a general query) but they are not interested in speaking to anyone unless they're making full payment

Given the 10 day time limit for the appeal, writing to them by post is not a sensible option as they would not respond in time and it was only a general question (& not the appeal itself)

They have now said that if my partner does not pay the full amount within 10 days he will get sent to prison for 3 months!

Can anybody offer any advice - obviously we are going to appeal but are not sure what to write in the appeal.

Train Company is East Coast.

 

[transportphoto]

East Coast don't issue Penalty Fares, this is more than likely an Unpaid Fares Notice.
In this case the terms of the ticket clearly state that you have to have the voucher with you, it is like a AP (advance purchase) ticket is not valid without the mandatory seat reservation.

You have been issued with this notice for £111.50 which is the same price of a Anytime (walk-up) Single, had your husband been able to pay, he could have done so, but he chose not too.

I very much doubt you will successfully appeal.

 

[bengolding]

Sorry to hear that, but they travelled on a hevily discounted ticket. The voucher would also have been required in order to validate the ticket. No voucher = ticket invalid. Have you checked the T&Cs on the voucher, which should say something along the lines of "Ticket is only valid when presented in conjunction with this voucher". I'm not accusing them of doing this, but what's to stop people transferring these £5 tickets to friends and family without the need for a voucher to validate it?

You may want to contact: http://www.penaltyfareappeal.co.uk/. They seem to have the expertise in offering advice in situations such as yours. Good luck!

 

[Claire]

Why are they so inconsistent then - they didn't want the voucher previously when I offered it to them... & my partners ticket was not even checked on the outward journey otherwise he would've been issued a notice then too!!

I am aware the voucher validates the ticket but it was a genuine mistake NOT an attemp at trying to get away without paying - OTHERWISE he would not have even purchased a ticket in the first place!!

We don't have the money to pay this (not in 9 days anyway!!) Guess he'll just have to go to prison if you think an appeal won't be successful!!!!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You may want to contact: http://www.penaltyfareappeal.co.uk/. They seem to have the expertise in offering advice in situations such as yours. Good luck![/QUOTE]

THANKS - will look at that website now!!

 

[theblackwatch]

Firstly, I do not think he has been given a penalty fare - East Coast (which operates these trains) is NOT part of any penalty fares scheme. What I suspect he has been charged is the 'Anytime Single' fare, which is what passengers without tickets have to buy on board.

I've travelled on East Coast (and its predecessors) using these offer vouchers and I cannot remember if I've actually had the voucher checked ever - I think I may have only once! Unfortunately, the Terms & Conditions of such offers state that you must have a copy of the voucher with you, so technically East Coast were correct and you may have difficulty fighting your case.

Sadly, there seem to be a few staff on East Coast who seem to use every opportunity they can to charge people again, rather than using a 'common sense' approach. On my way back from London earlier this year, a lady who had bought an advance ticket and was sat in her correct seat on the correct train opposite me was charged a full single fare because she only had her booking confirmation and hadn't realised she had to collect a ticket from the machine as well. The ticket inspector's attitude was appalling, he told her she should have read the conditions and by his attitude I got the impression charging people like this gave him job satisfaction. (Had he said he was sorry to charge her, and suggested she contacted customer services about seeing if she could get any form of refund at all, I wouldn't have thought so bad of him.) Still, we mustn't slag off the staff...

 

[transportphoto]

Why are they so inconsistent then - they didn't want the voucher previously when I offered it to them... & my partners ticket was not even checked on the outward journey otherwise he would've been issued a notice then too!!

I am aware the voucher validates the ticket but it was a genuine mistake NOT an attemp at trying to get away without paying - OTHERWISE he would not have even purchased a ticket in the first place!!

We don't have the money to pay this (not in 9 days anyway!!) Guess he'll just have to go to prison if you think an appeal won't be successful!!!!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You may want to contact: http://www.penaltyfareappeal.co.uk/. They seem to have the expertise in offering advice in situations such as yours. Good luck!

THANKS - will look at that website now!!

As you said yourself love - that was a different offer & may of had different terms.

To be sent to prison you will have to go before a magistrate, it is an offence under the railway by-laws (don't ask me which one!), I am guessing 3M is the maximum sentence.

Have you got a scan of the UPFN we could have a look at?
(please blank out personal details)

The URL that was posted by Ben will not be anyhelp as you have not got a penalty fare, you have just been told to pay the fare you should have done.

# When I refer to 'you' I mean your husband.

 

[bengolding]

Your partner did get an Unpaid Fares Notice which isn't a Penalty Fare. Due to the short timescale, you may want to consider contacting media - the Guardian (Money) is a best bet as it tends to get a lot of these scenarios where customers feel they have been unfairly charged extra by rail companies for a genuine error. Rail operators don't like bad publicity, so this may be a good option to pursue, to see how East Coast responds. Nothing may well come of it, but no harm in trying.

 

[Claire]

As you said yourself love - that was a different offer & may of had different terms.

** It was actually the same offer BUT different day of travel **

 

[142094]

As you said yourself love - that was a different offer & may of had different terms.

To be sent to prison you will have to go before a magistrate, it is an offence under the railway by-laws (don't ask me which one!), I am guessing 3M is the maximum sentence.

Have you got a scan of the UPFN we could have a look at?
(please blank out personal details)

The URL that was posted by Ben will not be anyhelp as you have not got a penalty fare, you have just been told to pay the fare you should have done.

# When I refer to 'you' I mean your husband.

I actually laughed when I read this post, you sound like Boris Johnson. How old are you again?

Going back to the OP, it sounds as if you had the Reader Offer that is sometimes in the Yorkshire Evening Post or something similar. The conditions normally state that you have to have the tokens printed in the paper with you when you travel, otherwise the ticket is invalid. I agrfee with you, the checks are very inconsistent, I've used this offer several times and only been asked for the tokens once. However the situation is quite unfortunate, and if you do appeal you are most likely to lose.

 

[Claire]

Def gonna appeal as you never know eh?!

More concered about not being able to pay the money - do they require the amt in full in 10 days does anybody know?

I do not have a copy of the notice as it is in Leeds with my partner!

 

[First class]

Claire, as a railway employee myself, I doubt you're going to be successful.

The ticket was only valid if presented with the voucher... the voucher wasn't presented, so the ticket is not valid...

If you do not pay the amount within the time frame given, it is usually passed on to a debt collection agency, (rather than court). It is more likely to affect your credit history/ ability to get credit if it is not paid.

You can try if you want, but I believe you're just setting yourself up for false hope.

You may want to suggest some sort of repayment plan if you cannot afford it.

 

[Ferret]

Tbh, I'd have to echo what has already been said. If the terms and conditions state that you must have the voucher and you did not have it then the ticket is invalid and a new SOS must be purchased. It'll be very difficult to successfully appeal that one I'm afraid.

 

[Claire]

You may want to suggest some sort of repayment plan if you cannot afford it

I called RPSS today & they said that they will not accept, under any circumstances, payment by instalments

 

[Tyke Toper]

A copy of this voucher is attached. It clearly states that it needs to be shown with your pre-booked tickets (in two places).

However I do find this harsh as ECR run similar promotions with local newspapers where (upto) 4 tokens are required so am sure that this will have occurred many
times in the past although I do not recall being asked to show them myself.

East Coast maintain a ticket office at Leeds within the First Class lounge (opposite the Northern ticket office) in the north concourse.
Perhaps someone there can assist you in resolving this?

 

[142094]

Def gonna appeal as you never know eh?!

More concered about not being able to pay the money - do they require the amt in full in 10 days does anybody know?

I do not have a copy of the notice as it is in Leeds with my partner!

If you do have to pay I'd ask if they'd be willing to take payment in installments - worth a try. If you explain the situation they may be a bit more lenient about getting the payment.

 

[First class]

If you tell them you won't pay them a penny unless they take instalments, they won't have much choice.

If they say they're going to take you to court, don't act bothered. Even if they do, the court will rule in their favour, but when you show you cant afford to pay, will create a repayment plan for you anyway...

 

[Ferret]

If you tell them you won't pay them a penny unless they take instalments, they won't have much choice.

If they say they're going to take you to court, don't act bothered. Even if they do, the court will rule in their favour, but when you show you cant afford to pay, will create a repayment plan for you anyway...

Umm, there's one slight problem with that. If they take you to court, I rather fear you get chinged for costs as well! So, you'll be paying in installments a hell of a lot longer

 

[Claire]

If I pay amt on partners behalf do we lose the right of appeal - will they not say we've accepted that he was in the wrong becasue we paid the fine?

 

[First class]

I don't believe you have the right to appeal now anyway as it's not a Penalty Fare. You can dispute it with East Coast, but there's no appeal process, just the standard complaint procedure.

The time limit refers to how long you get to pay it...

It's not a fine. It's the fare that should have been paid.

 

[Claire]

I don't believe you have the right to appeal now anyway as it's not a Penalty Fare.

SO you're saying now that there is no right of appeal if you've been issued with an UNPAID FARE NOTICE - even when the ticket inspector told my partner there was ??

 

[First class]

Correct. You can complain and dispute it, but there's no independent appeal process AFAIK.

 

[cuccir]

I suspect the guard was thinking of the right to complain when he referred to a right to appeal.

It's a little harsh of the guard to give your partner an unpaid fare notice for this, but is also fully within the rules. The person really in the wrong in this situation is the guard who claimed that you wouldn't require the voucher with you. To be honest with you, this sort of eventuality is a risk you take when you opt for this sort of ticket.

The only other thing I can think of that might help here is to ask where on the journey your partner's ticket was checked? I think that the guard should offer you the opportunity to pay for the anytime single to the next stop; someone else on the forum might be able to confirm or contradict this?

 

[Ferret]

Well, that is an option of course, but it's probably up to you to say 'I'll pay to the next stop and then get off'.

 

[richw]

did the guard take proof the vouchers were not present if not produce the vouchers and say you had them with you and the guard was wrong, if the guard has no evidence that you didnt produce tickets then there is no evidence against you if you produce voucher now. from a court point of view if you produce the tickets and the guard cant proof they were not present on the journey then the court WILL throw out the case, with no repercussions for yourself

 

[scrapy]

Other then the fact you have lied in court... how can a guard prove something wasn't there anyway?

Same as a guard wouldn't be able to prove someone didn't show a ticket, as there is no ticket as evidence but people get prosectuted, I certainly wouldn't suggest lying.

 

[theblackwatch]

did the guard take proof the vouchers were not present if not produce the vouchers and say you had them with you and the guard was wrong, if the guard has no evidence that you didnt produce tickets then there is no evidence against you if you produce voucher now. from a court point of view if you produce the tickets and the guard cant proof they were not present on the journey then the court WILL throw out the case, with no repercussions for yourself

And the admittance here won't be evidence? (Although this forum is here to offer advice, we are not going to delete a thread to enable someone to lie in court as you suggest! Even if we did, a copy may already have been kept by the TOC.)

 

[richw]

And the admittance here won't be evidence? (Although this forum is here to offer advice, we are not going to delete a thread to enable someone to lie in court as you suggest! Even if we did, a copy may already have been kept by the TOC.)

things written on a forum can't be used in court, unless someone reveals full details of their information, the only details of the OP is her user name which wouldnt stand in court, people never challenge such fines, but when they do and they know what they're doing the person will defeat the TOC everytime. such fines do not comply with uk law although many people dont know this to challenge it. i'm leaving it there saying no more on the subject as its a sore subject for TOCs, in the same manner most car park operators who issue fines saying if you do not pay they will double the fine etc, most of whom are not able to obtain details of registered keeper to follow up on fines,
the guard is not a law enforcer and what if someone gave false details but those of a real person, the issue remains a civil matter, and in a magistrates court the evidence would not stand unless the police were involved within 48 hours of the offence.

 

[142094]

things written on a forum can't be used in court, unless someone reveals full details of their information, the only details of the OP is her user name which wouldnt stand in court, people never challenge such fines, but when they do and they know what they're doing the person will defeat the TOC everytime. such fines do not comply with uk law although many people dont know this to challenge it. i'm leaving it there saying no more on the subject as its a sore subject for TOCs, in the same manner most car park operators who issue fines saying if you do not pay they will double the fine etc, most of whom are not able to obtain details of registered keeper to follow up on fines,
the guard is not a law enforcer and what if someone gave false details but those of a real person, the issue remains a civil matter, and in a magistrates court the evidence would not stand unless the police were involved within 48 hours of the offence.

Out of interest, are you involved in the legal profession? How do these fines not comply with UK law?

 

[Ferret]

Richw, there's a fundamental flaw in your post. An unpaid fares notice is not a fine. It is evidence of a civil debt. If the OP has signed the UFN then I'm afraid that's pretty much that. The TOC is perfectly entitled to take somebody to Court for non-payment of this civil debt. Sorry, but I find your advice on this issue to be highly questionable at best.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Richw - what utter claptrap.